SWR taking the Mickey on train lengths

[Craig1122]

One interesting thing about the Alton trains is how much they've slowed down compared to the 90s. In the 90s, before Woking, they were either Clapham only or, in some years, non-stop. By contrast they all (or did before Covid - I will admit to not paying so much attention post-Covid) stop West Byfleet in addition to either Clapham or Surbiton, but that isn't really the reason; they have an unfavourable path into Woking due to a conflict with the Portsmouth fast.

Journey time in 1997 was 1hr02 for the regular off-peak service: Woking in 25 mins, then straight out and down to Alton.


== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 5 Mar 2023 ==


Except running long trains Mon-Fri midday (which I would imagine would be considerably less busy than departures from Waterloo around 2000) presumably leads to more mileage and wear and tear, though does have the advantage of less ECS workings requiring staff to drive them to and from the depot. Swings and roundabouts I guess: there's definitely been a change in philosophy over the years. In 1997, during the early years of SWT, practically all Altons and Basingstokes were 4-car off peak but lengthening to 8 or even 12 occurred in the peak. Same pattern occurred in NSE days in the late 80s or early 90s; short trains off-peak, long in the peak; this issue has been discussed in previous threads.

At one point Weybridge fasts were Alton trains, it seems to have varied over the years between that and the current Basingstoke stoppers.

SWT made the decision to stop splitting down to shorter trains during the day as it was causing various performance issues. That change has happily coincided with the network getting busier across the day. Anecdotally I've been on Windsor line trains that are full and standing after 10am which would never have happened nineties/early 2000's, and that's with 10 vice 8 coaches. I suspect on many routes it would only be justified to go down to 4 coaches for a couple of round trips at most.

 

[pompeyfan]

Except running long trains Mon-Fri midday (which I would imagine would be considerably less busy than departures from Waterloo around 2000) presumably leads to more mileage and wear and tear, though does have the advantage of less ECS workings requiring staff to drive them to and from the depot. Swings and roundabouts I guess: there's definitely been a change in philosophy over the years. In 1997, during the early years of SWT, practically all Altons and Basingstokes were 4-car off peak but lengthening to 8 or even 12 occurred in the peak. Same pattern occurred in NSE days in the late 80s or early 90s; short trains off-peak, long in the peak; this issue has been discussed in previous threads.

As I mentioned earlier though, running off peak trains as 4 or 8 car services won’t suddenly give you more rolling stock for 2000. The only way you can strengthen trains at the shoulder peak is to either sacrifice lengths during the recognised peak, or purchase more rolling stock.

You’re correct that you could save a few hundred miles per unit on exams each day, but as has been highlighted you then need extra drivers to run the stock ECS to Clapham or Wimbledon, or you leave the units on the platform at Waterloo.

 

[Big Jumby 74]

As I mentioned earlier though, running off peak trains as 4 or 8 car services won’t suddenly give you more rolling stock for 2000. The only way you can strengthen trains at the shoulder peak is to either sacrifice lengths during the recognised peak, or purchase more rolling stock.

Spot on, and very frustrating for the planners in not being able to resolve certain situations. Oh for a magic wand !

Edited: As an example, one peak train, 1839 Waterloo to Poole remained a single 444 for far too long (due to its heavy loadings), because all other resources were required elsewhere in the core peak, irrespective of whether some were spare off peak or not, nothing could be done. The contract for the initial 10 car (458) plan, dated 2011, has the above service listed as required to be 8 cars (450), as part of the spin off benefits for main line over crowding problems, and by very early in 2014 the detailed plans had been worked up and were shown in internal Draft planning documents to be 8 cars (450). But in the real world this and many other changes, relied upon the 10 car 458 role out being in place. The 1839 eventually went over to 8 cars with the December 2015 timetable.

As pompeyfan rightly says, in general terms post p.m. peak formations (ie: 20.00 and later) can't normally be strengthened until stock used on early p.m. peak departures (from Waterloo) has bounced back to Waterloo from where ever, and may then be available for other strengthening purposes.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

One interesting thing about the Alton trains is how much they've slowed down compared to the 90s. In the 90s, before Woking, they were either Clapham only or, in some years, non-stop. By contrast they all (or did before Covid - I will admit to not paying so much attention post-Covid) stop West Byfleet in addition to either Clapham or Surbiton, but that isn't really the reason; they have an unfavourable path into Woking due to a conflict with the Portsmouth fast.

Yes those Alton trains do run much slower, especially on Sundays when they have an extra stop at Wimbledon. And frustratingly, the slower times not only make for less convenient journeys but also mean the stock is used more, which means you have fewer carriages that might have otherwise been used to lengthen some other train or provide an additional service. The fact that units usually sit at Alton for a full half hour must make the stock utilisation even less efficient. (Not sure why they do that? Is it some restriction caused by the single track west of Farnham?)

I recall for many years during the 70s, 80s and early 90s, the pattern was: Waterloo-Surbiton-Woking, and then the train would split into Alton and Basingstoke portions, with the journey to Alton taking only about an hour, despite the need to be held at Woking for the splitting/rejoining. These days you have two extra stops (Clapham Junction and West Byfleet, but no complications at Woking), but the journey still seems unnecessarily long, with the train basically crawling between stops West of Brookwood. Absurdly, one train an hour doesn't bother calling at Bentley, but then when travelling to Waterloo, it's timetabled to sit at Farnham for 3 minutes, cancelling out the time saved by missing out the Bentley call. I'm not a timetable expert but it really seems to me astonishing that SWR can't come up with something that's a bit friendlier to passengers and better for stock utilisation on that route.

 

[DelW]

The fact that units usually sit at Alton for a full half hour must make the stock utilisation even less efficient. (Not sure why they do that? Is it some restriction caused by the single track west of Farnham?)

The Guildford <> Farnham shuttle introduced by SWR also has long layovers, at Guildford they occupy p6 for about 25 minutes of every half hour. It seems a less efficient use of stock than the previous Guildford <> Ascot service, which made very quick connections with Alton <> Waterloo trains at Aldershot. The only problem with those was that they were too quick for journey planners which used to show an unnecessary half hour wait.

 

[Big Jumby 74]

The fact that units usually sit at Alton for a full half hour

Yes, the single line has a very real impact on that route. From a timetabling point of view it was (probably still is?) seen as best to get trains away from the most complex part of the journey, in this case the Waterloo area, so that performance can be optimised there (for all services in the plan). One plan hic up at Waterloo can have drastic knock on problems. Once out of the London area the service will then have to dovetail in with other services at Woking, taking in to account inter connection opportunities that are desired to be in the plan. After Woking a free hand (run) can then be had as far as Aldershot North Junction/Aldershot, if nothing else gets in the way (plan wise), but A'shot N Jn can be a planning 'mare, so these things taken overall, is why there was (is) some slack in the Alton's, and that's before they reach Farnham and the single line!

EDITED: From a planning angle it was often a case of working and reworking ideas to get the best overall plan, and, as in life, there will always be a few compromises. These 'not so good' parts of the plan were often revisited during the course of numerous timetable periods with a view to improving things, but there comes a point when there is nowhere further to go, without making another part of the 'overall plan' substantially worse.

 

[nw1]

As I mentioned earlier though, running off peak trains as 4 or 8 car services won’t suddenly give you more rolling stock for 2000. The only way you can strengthen trains at the shoulder peak is to either sacrifice lengths during the recognised peak, or purchase more rolling stock.

For point of clarification, my suggestion of shorter off peak services was a separate point - I realise that running the 1400 as a 4-car doesn't make stock available for the 2000!

It was more about the "opposite" problem to the one in this thread - over-long services with low loads potentially with few passengers and possibly wasting money, though I realise ECS workings cost money too, so as I said, swings and roundabouts.

You’re correct that you could save a few hundred miles per unit on exams each day, but as has been highlighted you then need extra drivers to run the stock ECS to Clapham or Wimbledon, or you leave the units on the platform at Waterloo.

Indeed.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 6 Mar 2023 ==

I recall for many years during the 70s, 80s and early 90s, the pattern was: Waterloo-Surbiton-Woking, and then the train would split into Alton and Basingstoke portions, with the journey to Alton taking only about an hour, despite the need to be held at Woking for the splitting/rejoining.

I remember that well. To be pedantic the change was May 1989, with the two services then running separately. But the new Alton service of 1989 was when the really fast journeys came in, calling only Clapham, Woking, then I think Ash Vale and all.

 

[Tetchytyke]

It's not the ROSCOs who encouraged franchise bids to order brand new trains to replace nearly new ones

Actually, it is.

In most cases it was cheaper for a TOC to lease new stock than it was to lease the older stock. This was certainly the case with the class 707, which is why they went so quickly, as they were replaced with cheaper trains.

 

[moley]

The 1750 from Waterloo was always the prime peak service, but its stopping pattern varied through the years. I don't think it was ever 444 though, as it disappeared with the 2004 change. It was, however 2x442 for a good number of years, maybe you're thinking of that?

In the 80s this could be described as a semi-fast, making calls at Woking, Worplesdon, Guildford, Godalming, and Haslemere. The 80s pattern in the evening peak was generally to serve Worplesdon with the 81 fasts, and skip Worplesdon with the 82s (stoppers beyond Guildford), presumably to avoid the 81s catching up with the 82s.

The 0615 up and the 1750 were the two services that SWR tried not to cancel due to the amount of grief they got from the Haslemere crowd, earning the 0615 the The Tory Express nickname. Pre the 2004 'known your numbers' timetable change, they were non-stop Haslemere - Waterloo in both directions. They were billed as 'super fast' services from Portsmouth. They were generally seated full with a few standees for their non-stop segment.

At that time, there were two 10 car 442 diagrams on the Pompey direct. They were the 0615 and 0643 up. Both split at Waterloo then forming separate 5 car services through til about 3.30/4pm when they joined reunited in Portsmouth heading to Waterloo to cover the 1750 (and 1850?). What was the 1750 would then visit Pompey again before arriving back at Waterloo around 9pm where is would form a Poole service, with the corresponding up working then forming at 10pm ish service to Portsmouth.

When the class 444s arrived the quite quickly took over the 0615 and 0643 up and (the by then) 1700 and 1730 down services. They didn't split during the day due to issues attaching the units at Portsmouth Harbour. The 1730 was quickly seen as too busy and changed to the 450s.

And so began the saga of the middle seat on the Pompey Direct. SWT tried hard to state that neither the 1730 or the 1800 were the direct replacement for the 1750 at the know your numbers timetable change but not to much success. The failing had been two fold. Firstly SWT had very publicly stated that fast trains would be 444s and that 450s were only designed for an hour max travel and secondly, the line diagrams above the doors of 450s cutting off at Basingstoke/Guildford, and 444s showing the 'high speed network'. SWTs own research confirmed that the 450s weren't suitable for 5 day a week commuting of 90 minutes+, that the seats (without spacers) were not wide enough for the average adult, and that passengers would actively stand than try to squeeze in the middle seat. The reason for saying all of this is that SWT actually agreed in principal with the Pompey direct outcry..... but the DfT were hell-bent on actual seats into Waterloo, whether they were used or not, and refused even sensible changes. Sound familiar?

 

[nw1]

The 0615 up and the 1750 were the two services that SWR tried not to cancel due to the amount of grief they got from the Haslemere crowd, earning the 0615 the The Tory Express nickname. Pre the 2004 'known your numbers' timetable change, they were non-stop Haslemere - Waterloo in both directions. They were billed as 'super fast' services from Portsmouth. They were generally seated full with a few standees for their non-stop segment.

Interesting that the 0615 was not historically the prime service; in the early/mid 80s the equivalent was all stations Portsmouth Harbour to Haslemere, then Guildford and Waterloo, and unlike the next three fasts, lacked a buffet. Typically formed 4Cig+8Vep.

At that time, there were two 10 car 442 diagrams on the Pompey direct. They were the 0615 and 0643 up. Both split at Waterloo then forming separate 5 car services through til about 3.30/4pm when they joined reunited in Portsmouth heading to Waterloo to cover the 1750 (and 1850?). What was the 1750 would then visit Pompey again before arriving back at Waterloo around 9pm where is would form a Poole service, with the corresponding up working then forming at 10pm ish service to Portsmouth.

The CWN I have is winter 2003/4 and this is slightly different; in the sense that only the 0615 was 442. The 0643 (actually 0649) was 12Cig by this stage.

The 0615 then worked down to Portsmouth as the 0808, and split at Portsmouth Harbour into 2 diagrams. These included the 1208 and 1238 fasts from Waterloo.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

At that time, there were two 10 car 442 diagrams on the Pompey direct. They were the 0615 and 0643 up. Both split at Waterloo then forming separate 5 car services through til about 3.30/4pm when they joined reunited in Portsmouth heading to Waterloo to cover the 1750 (and 1850?). What was the 1750 would then visit Pompey again before arriving back at Waterloo around 9pm where is would form a Poole service, with the corresponding up working then forming at 10pm ish service to Portsmouth.

The 06.43 (was 06.49 in pre 2004 recast days) was never booked 10 WES, it was always 12CIG/BEP/CIG till the BEPs were withdrawn during 2003 and then became 12CIG as noted in another post.

The 06.15 (was 06.19 in those days) was the 10 WES, in earlier years when a second 10 WES was diagrammed on the PDL it was the 05.14 ex Portsmouth.

The two return workings from Waterloo in the evening peak which were 10 WES was the 16.50 and 17.51 departures. The 18.50 was booked 12CIG/BEP/CIG, later (but still prior to the ‘04 recast) this train became a 1900 departure, still with a BEP until they were withdrawn and it became 12 CIG. The 16.50 later went over to CIGs (the WES units instead going onto the 16.45 Poole) but the 17.51 remains 10 WES.

 

[nw1]

The 06.43 (was 06.49 in pre 2004 recast days) was never booked 10 WES, it was always 12CIG/BEP/CIG till the BEPs were withdrawn during 2003 and then became 12CIG as noted in another post.

The 06.15 (was 06.19 in those days) was the 10 WES, in earlier years when a second 10 WES was diagrammed on the PDL it was the 05.14 ex Portsmouth.

The two return workings from Waterloo in the evening peak which were 10 WES was the 16.50 and 17.51 departures. The 18.50 was booked 12CIG/BEP/CIG, later (but still prior to the ‘04 recast) this train became a 1900 departure, still with a BEP until they were withdrawn and it became 12 CIG. The 16.50 later went over to CIGs (the WES units instead going onto the 16.45 Poole) but the 17.51 remains 10 WES.

Incidentally which year did the 442s come off the regular daytime Portsmouth fasts?

I seem to remember most were still 442s at the major 1999 recast, which saw the 15-min clockface interval (08, 23, 38, 53) introduced. I then lost track for a while, but recall it being mostly CIGs and VEPs by summer 2004 (I used the PDL a lot that summer, primarily the southern part, south of Haslemere), as the CWN confirms.

Another point of interest in the winter 2003/4 CWN is that several (a minority, but still several) of the Portsmouth fasts were VEPs.

 

[Kite159]

Regarding SWR train lengths, I wish on the Saturdays the XX:50 services from Waterloo to Salisbury were more than a single unit, especially in the evenings when rugby has been on at Twickenham. I've been on some which have been quite cosy to Woking/Basingstoke.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

Incidentally which year did the 442s come off the regular daytime Portsmouth fasts?

I’ll try and dig out some old CWN’s

 

[nw1]

I’ll try and dig out some old CWN’s

Thanks.

 

[fandroid]

To add to my experience of SWR overcrowding, I caught the 08.59 from Basingstoke to Woking yesterday. It's the last morning peak fare service to Waterloo, but the platform was crowded and it was crowded to the doors once it set off. 6 coaches. I was not aware of any previous cancellations. In the good old days you could guarantee a seat on that service as everyone waited for offpeak fares to come in a short while later. The passengers are there, willing to pay top dollar, but where are the trains?

 

[greaterwest]

To add to my experience of SWR overcrowding, I caught the 08.59 from Basingstoke to Woking yesterday. It's the last morning peak fare service to Waterloo, but the platform was crowded and it was crowded to the doors once it set off. 6 coaches. I was not aware of any previous cancellations. In the good old days you could guarantee a seat on that service as everyone waited for offpeak fares to come in a short while later. The passengers are there, willing to pay top dollar, but where are the trains?

Large numbers of passengers from Reading were diverted to Basingstoke and onto SWR services yesterday due to the line side fire at Maidenhead. That would have overcrowded most Basingstoke to London services.

 

[alastair]

Large numbers of passengers from Reading were diverted to Basingstoke and onto SWR services yesterday due to the line side fire at Maidenhead. That would have overcrowded most Basingstoke to London services.

Did that really happen? Why would staff at Reading tell people to travel via Basingstoke when there is a direct (although rather slow) 8 or 10 car train from Reading to Waterloo? Apologies if I have misunderstood the point you were making.

 

[swr444]

Did that really happen? Why would staff at Reading tell people to travel via Basingstoke when there is a direct (although rather slow) 8 or 10 car train from Reading to Waterloo? Apologies if I have misunderstood the point you were making.

They were sent both ways. The Reading line services were full and standing from reading, not great for people also living on that line.

 

[Clarence Yard]

That route is preferred by many as, to them, travelling to Waterloo on the stopper is akin to watching paint dry. The direct route also gets rammed in times of disruption.

 

[moley]

Either way, the railway has to be able to cope with disruptions. Whilst I accept you can’t run carriages full of fresh air on the off chance of disruption, this shows the weakness of cutting so many services, and then shortening those remaining.

 

[swr444]

Either way, the railway has to be able to cope with disruptions. Whilst I accept you can’t run carriages full of fresh air on the off chance of disruption, this shows the weakness of cutting so many services, and then shortening those remaining.

SWR could have easily turned around and said no to ticket acceptance but they didn’t. The train the poster wrote about at least ran and they managed to get to their destination. People often forget you’re paying for a service not a seat. I know it’s not great not having a seat, it’s better than a cancelled service and double the amount of people cramming on one train

 

[moley]

But then maybe that’s what they need to do - say no to ticket acceptance.

Crush loading and potentially leaving people on platforms is not a good image for the railway.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

But then maybe that’s what they need to do - say no to ticket acceptance.

Crush loading and potentially leaving people on platforms is not a good image for the railway.

Can they do that? I'd have expected that any non-operator-specific ticket from Reading (or West of Reading) to London would be valid via Ascot anyway, so impossible for SWR to refuse. Am I mistaken? I can believe tickets might not normally be valid via Basingstoke, but enforcing that would presumably just cause the Waterloo-Ascot-Reading trains to become totally crush loaded.

Besides, refusing to let people travel on reasonable alternative routes when one route is blocked would create an even worse image for the railways, as well as harming even more people's journeys.

 

[pompeyfan]

I’m pretty confident in saying that SWRs management contract also insist on now having nearly all services west of Yeovil formed of 6 coaches. There’s not enough units to have both 9s east of Salisbury and 6 west of Yeovil.

One option with the benefit of hindsight would have been to put a special stop on the semi fast Weymouth that skips Basingstoke, but if control aren’t made aware of the “crush loading” at Basingstoke, they can’t react.

 

[Omnishambles]

To add to my experience of SWR overcrowding, I caught the 08.59 from Basingstoke to Woking yesterday. It's the last morning peak fare service to Waterloo, but the platform was crowded and it was crowded to the doors once it set off. 6 coaches. I was not aware of any previous cancellations. In the good old days you could guarantee a seat on that service as everyone waited for offpeak fares to come in a short while later. The passengers are there, willing to pay top dollar, but where are the trains?

0829 arrival from Salisbury line terminates with connxn to 0835 London. Could be the Salisbury was a little late and missed that connection also ?

 

[Kite159]

0829 arrival from Salisbury line terminates with connxn to 0835 London. Could be the Salisbury was a little late and missed that connection also ?

Looks like the 06:20 Honiton to Basingstoke train was on time yesterday.

 

[XAM2175]

But then maybe that’s what they need to do - say no to ticket acceptance.

Crush loading and potentially leaving people on platforms is not a good image for the railway.

Had they said no we'd have had a dozen threads here decrying it as a bad image for the railway!