'Scenic trains' proposed by Scotrail for Highlands

[Craig2601]

Seen an article shared on twitter about 'scenic trains with larger windows planned by Scotrail for lines in Highlands'. Any idea what the proposal might be? The article itself shared in the Scotsman is behind a paywall.

‘Scenic trains’ with larger windows planned by ScotRail for lines in Highlands

‘Scenic trains’ with larger windows are being considered by ScotRail for a new greener fleet on lines in the Highlands popular with tourists.

www.scotsman.com

‘Scenic trains’ with larger windows planned by ScotRail for Highland lines to Mallaig and Thurso​

 

[RailWonderer]

This one is free.

Swiss-style 'scenic trains' could run on world-famous Scottish route

Swiss-style “scenic trains” with extra legroom and luxury catering could be introduced on the Scottish route considered one of the world’s…

www.heraldscotland.com

Swiss-style “scenic trains” with extra legroom and luxury catering could be introduced on the Scottish route considered one of the world’s greatest train journeys.

Scotrail and Transport Scotland are considering replicating the glass-sided and roofed trains on the West Highland Line (WHL) which runs from Glasgow to Mallaig and was popularised in the Harry Potter movies.

Transport Scotland confirmed it is one of five options under consideration ...

The MD of Scotrail is prepared to charge a slight premium fare if that meant funding these trains, he suggested, though read the article if you don't agree with my slant.

Scotrail is already looking at replacements for the Sprinter fleet there is no doubt, although it is too early for them to announce any orders placed. Anyway I'm glad Transport Scotland is looking to take advantage of the tourist potential of their line, unlike Northern and the S&C.

I would even suggest tilt to reduce journey times on the twisty WHL and FNL but cost grounds would be the first obstacle especially given the sparse frequency of services on said lines, though the time savings I think would be worth at least looking into.

 

[Meerkat]

Could it be as simple as having the panoramic coach(es) as First Class?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Could it be as simple as having the panoramic coach(es) as First Class?

I suspect this is how it'd be, yes.

If the order for Sprinter replacements was to go to Stadler, panoramic windows that wrap round to the roof are already part of their standard offering for the FLIRT. This would, in my view, be money for old rope from tourists. You don't necessarily even need to go 2+1 - SBB don't - because the whole "panoramic window" thing is a selling point in itself.

 

[Falcon1200]

An interesting idea certainly, but which would presumably mean a separate fleet of DMUs for the 'scenic' lines from the other remaining diesel worked routes, eg Girvan & Stranraer, Barrhead-Carlisle via Kilmarnock for example. And while things are not as bad as they used to be, I'm not sure how glass-roofed trains would fare when passing through parts of Glasgow.....

 

[Meerkat]

Make sense to keep the tourists away from the locals. My folks went on a scenic Italian line with big windows and the locals shut the blinds to keep the sun out!

 

[Bletchleyite]

An interesting idea certainly, but which would presumably mean a separate fleet of DMUs for the 'scenic' lines from the other remaining diesel worked routes, eg Girvan & Stranraer, Barrhead-Carlisle via Kilmarnock for example. And while things are not as bad as they used to be, I'm not sure how glass-roofed trains would fare when passing through parts of Glasgow.....

While it'd nominally be a microfleet, it would certainly be possible to have FLIRTs with the panoramic coach for the "scenic" lines and ones without it for the regular DMU lines, that way you've got commonality of parts of everything bar the actual panoramic windows. As mentioned it's a standard Stadler offering.

 

[richa2002]

The Highlands have been crying out for this ever since the woeful 156s arrived, but I can't help thinking it must be accompanied by a programme of vegetation clearance too so passengers can see more.

 

[Iskra]

Someone at Scotrail has been reading RailUK…

 

[30907]

I suspect this is how it'd be, yes.

If the order for Sprinter replacements was to go to Stadler, panoramic windows that wrap round to the roof are already part of their standard offering for the FLIRT.

Are any of these actually in service?
The new SOB Gotthard units have large windows, but as far as I can see they end below the cantrail, and the panoramic effect is obtained by the low floor relative to window height. I don't think (but may be wrong) that Stadler built any of the Glacier Express and similar stock with sloped windows above the cantrail?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Are any of these actually in service?
The new SOB Gotthard units have large windows, but as far as I can see they end below the cantrail, and the panoramic effect is obtained by the low floor relative to window height. I don't think (but may be wrong) that Stadler built any of the Glacier Express and similar stock with sloped windows above the cantrail?

Not units for certain, but they built the Glacier Express coaches, full factsheet here:

https://www.stadlerrail.com/media/pdf/wgex0706e.pdf

 

[hexagon789]

I don't think (but may be wrong) that Stadler built any of the Glacier Express and similar stock with sloped windows above the cantrail?

What about the RhB 'Alvra' trainsets?

 

[30907]

What about the RhB 'Alvra' trainsets?

Yes, I should have checked. Stadler have built both those and the GEX stock, which are push-pull (as are the MOB Golden Pass sets) and hauled respectively.

However, the Capricorn EMUs, like the s/g FLIRT, do not have windows above the cantrail - I suspect there are structural issues to do with the extra weight of EMU stock which have prevented it.

I suspect that Scotrail will have to settle for taller windows.

 

[kevin_roche]

I hope they clean the windows. On my last train trip to Oban, it was very difficult to see anything through the windows.

 

[SuspectUsual]

An interesting idea certainly, but which would presumably mean a separate fleet of DMUs for the 'scenic' lines from the other remaining diesel worked routes, eg Girvan & Stranraer, Barrhead-Carlisle via Kilmarnock for example. And while things are not as bad as they used to be, I'm not sure how glass-roofed trains would fare when passing through parts of Glasgow.....

Isn’t that already the case because of the RETB equipment?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 6 Mar 2023 ==

I hope they clean the windows. On my last train trip to Oban, it was very difficult to see anything through the windows.

Well yes, but it’d still be better than a northern 158 with vinyls over the windows on the S&C

 

[Bletchleyite]

However, the Capricorn EMUs, like the s/g FLIRT, do not have windows above the cantrail - I suspect there are structural issues to do with the extra weight of EMU stock which have prevented it.

You can of course do a dead trailer which is the same as a piece of LHCS. I'm sure I've seen a Swiss EMU with a panoramic coach in the middle but I'm struggling to think where now.

I suspect that Scotrail will have to settle for taller windows.

The Class 170 probably fits the bill to be honest. Big windows and a semi-tilt profile give an excellent view. Voyagers do too for similar reasons.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 6 Mar 2023 ==

Well yes, but it’d still be better than a northern 158 with vinyls over the windows on the S&C

158s aren't at all bad for view out including up. 156s even more so, the windows are high and huge, though the hoppers get in the way.

 

[Meerkat]

Lower roof, raising seats, and lots of Perspex domes on top. Obvious solution
Or just open topped - then you would get the full Scottish experience!

More seriously no point having scenic windows if they put in tombstone seats that restrict views to sideways for many people.
If the windows weren’t rippled 444s would be fantastic for looking at scenery, they are still pretty good with loads of glass and doors at the end, so not in the way.

 

[N1]

I'm sure I've seen a Swiss EMU with a panoramic coach in the middle but I'm struggling to think where now.

Stadler SPATZ Units ABe 130 on the Zentralbahn are 3 car sets with the centre car is panoramic, this what you are thinking of?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Stadler SPATZ Units ABe 130 on the Zentralbahn are 3 car sets with the centre car is panoramic, this what you are thinking of?

Yep, them's the ones! I knew I'd seen it somewhere.

I also half recall the Grindelwald-Kleine Scheidegg railway has a few similar units but I couldn't find photos of them.

Those are quite interesting units - they're basically a narrow gauge GTW, but instead of the short power pack they have the panoramic coach with a high floor and the gubbins underneath (I think). They remind me a bit of a Sheffield tram in concept.

Edit: I've now found a picture of the Grindelwald ones:

Kleine Scheidegg

Kleine Scheidegg lies in the middle of the mountain world. In the central mountain station, all options are open: Up to Jungfraujoch with the Jungfrau…

www.jungfrau.ch

Not sure if they're Stadler though, but they're the same idea.

 

[30907]

Yep, them's the ones! I knew I'd seen it somewhere.

I also half recall the Grindelwald-Kleine Scheidegg railway has a few similar units but I couldn't find photos of them.

Those are quite interesting units - they're basically a narrow gauge GTW, but instead of the short power pack they have the panoramic coach with a high floor and the gubbins underneath (I think). They remind me a bit of a Sheffield tram in concept.

Edit: I've now found a picture of the Grindelwald ones:

Kleine Scheidegg

Kleine Scheidegg lies in the middle of the mountain world. In the central mountain station, all options are open: Up to Jungfraujoch with the Jungfrau…

www.jungfrau.ch

Not sure if they're Stadler though, but they're the same idea.

They look very similar to the SPATZ apart from the narrower gauge.
I wonder why Stadler didn't reverse the concept with "panoramic" driving trailers and a centre power car though.
Of course being diesel/battery/bionic duckweed would complicate matters for Scotland, and a main line unit would need CTO comply with crashworthiness standards that the NG units don't seem to.

 

[dazzler]

You can of course do a dead trailer which is the same as a piece of LHCS. I'm sure I've seen a Swiss EMU with a panoramic coach in the middle but I'm struggling to think where now.

Stadler SPATZ Units ABe 130 on the Zentralbahn are 3 car sets with the centre car is panoramic, this what you are thinking of?

MGB (Matterhorn Gotthard Bahn) also have some EMUs with panoramic sections. These are:

• BDSeh 4/8
• ABDeh 4/8
• ABDeh 4/10

All are, unsurprisingly, Stadler products.

 

[Bletchleyite]

They look very similar to the SPATZ apart from the narrower gauge.
I wonder why Stadler didn't reverse the concept with "panoramic" driving trailers and a centre power car though.

Probably just because the design is the established GTW, so the only thing needing redesign was to make a central bogied high floor powered passenger vehicle instead of a central power pack? The end vehicles are standard GTW with a bogie at one end.

You'll get a pretty good panoramic view from those massive high windows, anyway.

For what it's worth, the Domino standard gauge EMUs are the opposite way round - high floor power car and driving trailer, with one or more low floor trailers inserted in between (replacing EW I/II coaches which were previously there), which again with massive windows in the low floor section do offer a panoramic view even if not built specifically for that.

 

[N1]

They look very similar to the SPATZ apart from the narrower gauge.
I wonder why Stadler didn't reverse the concept with "panoramic" driving trailers and a centre power car though.
Of course being diesel/battery/bionic duckweed would complicate matters for Scotland, and a main line unit would need CTO comply with crashworthiness standards that the NG units don't seem to.

I believe only the centre car is powered, meaning it can't be as low floor as the driving trailers, so the centre car is made "panoramic in the sense of roof lights, while the trailers are panoramic with just very tall windows.

The unpowered carriage/control car equivalent ZB ABte doesn't have the raised centre power car, just tall windows.

We are digressing from the thread topic a bit though

 

[Falcon1200]

Isn’t that already the case because of the RETB equipment?

Yes, but apart from that the Class 156 and Class 158 sets are identical within the fleets, and RETB equipment can be, and has been, transferred between sets.

 

[Wynd]

Great idea, and glad to hear that the powers that be are doing the right thing and looking ahead.

What are the chances of us actually getting them made in Scotland...?

 

[6Gman]

Great idea, and glad to hear that the powers that be are doing the right thing and looking ahead.

What are the chances of us actually getting them made in Scotland...?

Pretty much zero I would say unless there's still a carriage-manufacturing capacity at Kilmarnock!

 

[30907]

MGB (Matterhorn Gotthard Bahn) also have some EMUs with panoramic sections.
All are, unsurprisingly, Stadler products.

And to the same SPATZ design it seems.

We are digressing from the thread topic a bit though

Only because we have gone from standard gsuge self powered to narrow gauge electric stock!

If Stadler can translate the concept that would be an excellent solution - but I have a feeling it's a big IF.

 

[philosopher]

Someone at Scotrail has been reading RailUK…

I seem to remember creating a thread speculating on panoramic cars on scenic lines on this forum a couple of years ago!