SWR - Not holding train

[m00036]

This evening I was on the 18:07 arrival into Ascot, with my onward connection at 18:13 towards Aldershot. This is a valid connection and one that 50+ people made. As it was, our arrival into Ascot was at 18:11.30 so there were lots of us running over the footbridge to make the train.

What I just don't get is the guard still blowing their whistle at 18:12.30 with passengers still running across the footbridge, closing the doors at the first possible opportunity and ultimately stranding around 6 people on the platform (including two vulnerable). The trains are hourly on the line with no other connections at any other stations alongside a 25 minute turnaround at Aldershot, so why is there no policy in place to prevent this ridiculous situation where passengers are stranded through no fault of their own?

I understand that on most routes, leaving on schedule is vital to ensure that all other connections / pathing are as planned, but in this case there are literally no other routes involved. One hopes that those left behind know to claim delay repay (most likely over £100 in total)...

I guess the question is how can I raise this to SWR in a constructive way to ensure that the right message is passed on, instead of getting the generic 'our policy is to run all trains to schedule, we're sorry for any inconvenience on this occasion' response.

 

[zwk500]

This evening I was on the 18:07 arrival into Ascot, with my onward connection at 18:13 towards Aldershot. This is a valid connection and one that 50+ people made. As it was, our arrival into Ascot was at 18:11.30 so there were lots of us running over the footbridge to make the train.

What I just don't get is the guard still blowing their whistle at 18:12.30 with passengers still running across the footbridge, closing the doors at the first possible opportunity and ultimately stranding around 6 people on the platform (including two vulnerable). The trains are hourly on the line with no other connections at any other stations alongside a 25 minute turnaround at Aldershot, so why is there no policy in place to prevent this ridiculous situation where passengers are stranded through no fault of their own?

There are other routes involved, as it does interact at Ash Vale and Aldershot. However given you arrived 90 seconds before the booked departure it's very poor to have not waited with people presumably clearly visibly trying to make the train.

 

[Caleb2010]

Last year I was at Feltham and had an issue where a SWR guard refused to help with a ramp stating he was late already - thought he was on time !

I reported this to SWR and go no answer whatsoever!

I’ve experienced connections leaving as the connection arrive in an adjacent platform, when it would have delayed the service by, what, 2 minutes!

Reported, once again - no answer!!

Apart from insisting that mobility scooter users have a special permit for using their services - I can’t see what SWR customer services actually do!!!

 

[yorkie]

This is typical in the UK; we are not customer focussed, unlike many other countries.

 

[g492p]

Looking at RTT, it looks like the train departed RT. It’s a difficult one. Unfortunately had the guard waited, he would likely have departed late and got a letter/email from performance asking for an explanation. At least at the TOCs I’ve worked at, holding a train like this requires authorisation from control.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 5 Mar 2023 ==

This is typical in the UK; we are not customer focussed, unlike many other countries.

Im not sure this is exclusively a British thing. I’ve missed many connections in Europe and Asia over the years, when my origional train ran late. I would put it down to an unfortunate fact of life.

 

[O L Leigh]

This is typical in the UK; we are not customer focussed, unlike many other countries.

Who is the customer, though? The ones on the platform trying to make the connection or the ones already on the train who may themselves have a connection to make further down the line? Is it good customer service to delay a train, causing it to miss its slot at a busy interchange or causing knock-on delays to other services?

I’m not asking in order to start an argument, but in the event of late running there will always be someone inconvenienced no matter what course of action is taken. Given the size and complexity of the web of potential consequences, it’s impossible for there to be a “right” course of action.

In this specific instance, could the guard have hung on a little? Perhaps. I’ve certainly known guards do it, but as things stand the decision will rest with the individual.

 

[yorkie]

Who is the customer, though? The ones on the platform trying to make the connection or the ones already on the train who may themselves have a connection to make further down the line? Is it good customer service to delay a train, causing it to miss its slot at a busy interchange or causing knock-on delays to other services?

If the UK approach is so good, why do so many other countries do things differently?

Which connection do you think would have been put at risk if the train had waited a few seconds?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 5 Mar 2023 ==

Im not sure this is exclusively a British thing. I’ve missed many connections in Europe and Asia over the years...

In the circumstances described? Over a few seconds into an hourly train?

 

[Kite159]

The railway, putting passengers first...

Probably, the penalty for holding the train back by a minute would have far exceeded any delay claims for those passengers who were less mobile and faced an hour wait at a cold Ascot station

(Although it isn't just SWR who do that, this afternoon a Crewe - London LNR was 8 minutes late into Rugeley Trent Valley (where the connection to the hourly train towards Birmingham via Walsall is 9 minutes). The Chase line train departed bang on time so any passengers wanting to make that connection would have crossed the footbridge to see the train pulling out.)

 

[O L Leigh]

If the UK approach is so good, why do so many other countries do things differently?

I didn’t say that it was “good” or attempt to draw any comparison with overseas operators. It’s simply a different approach.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 5 Mar 2023 ==

Which connection do you think would have been put at risk if the train had waited a few seconds?

You seemed to be making a general point, hence the tenor of my answer.

 

[LittleAH]

Who is the customer, though? The ones on the platform trying to make the connection or the ones already on the train who may themselves have a connection to make further down the line? Is it good customer service to delay a train, causing it to miss its slot at a busy interchange or causing knock-on delays to other services?

I’m not asking in order to start an argument, but in the event of late running there will always be someone inconvenienced no matter what course of action is taken. Given the size and complexity of the web of potential consequences, it’s impossible for there to be a “right” course of action.

In this specific instance, could the guard have hung on a little? Perhaps. I’ve certainly known guards do it, but as things stand the decision will rest with the individual.

This. It's far more complex than saying in the UK we're not customer focussed.

 

[yorkie]

Yes it's a complex issue, but if you compare the overall travelling experience in countries like Switzerland (and many more places I've been to) with the UK, it is very different; many people are put off rail travel in the UK because of the overall experience not being as customer focussed as it should be.

The passengers who were stuck at Ascot for a whole hour over the sake of a few seconds are potentially going to be lost as future passengers. The argument that it would have put a connection at risk doesn't stand up to scrutiny.

 

[pokemonsuper9]

The ones on the platform trying to make the connection or the ones already on the train who may themselves have a connection to make further down the line? Is it good customer service to delay a train, causing it to miss its slot at a busy interchange or causing knock-on delays to other services?

There are other routes involved, as it does interact at Ash Vale and Aldershot.

In this specific scenario, I can't seem to see any quick connections further down the line, in fact, the train got into Aldershot a minute early
Assuming it's today (RTT)
At the end of the day it's up to the guard, I've seen some let people behind and some let people on, I think there might be a better chance of getting a train held if you can contact them or something.

 

[O L Leigh]

In this specific scenario, I can't seem to see any quick connections further down the line, in fact, the train got into Aldershot a minute early
Assuming it's today (RTT)
At the end of the day it's up to the guard, I've seen some let people behind and some let people on, I think there might be a better chance of getting a train held if you can contact them or something.

In this specific instance, perhaps not. But the conditions are not always going to be replicated elsewhere on the network or at other times.

Given that I’ve known guards and dispatchers to hang on for stragglers, I would have to say on balance that individual instances of poor service are not necessarily indicative of a lack of customer focus. While the travelling experience may be different here compared to elsewhere, there may be reasons other than those cited at play. My understanding of the Swiss network is that it’s service density is less than on the UK network which gives the operator a bit more wiggle-room. I also imagine that they don’t labour under a similar delay attribution system.

 

[m00036]

In this specific scenario, I can't seem to see any quick connections further down the line, in fact, the train got into Aldershot a minute early
Assuming it's today (RTT)
At the end of the day it's up to the guard, I've seen some let people behind and some let people on, I think there might be a better chance of getting a train held if you can contact them or something.

Yes exactly. I know most routes will have connections that could be missed by other passengers, but in this case the only interchange is at Ash Vale and the connection time there on Sundays is around 15 minutes! Of course some people could well have connections outside of the railway, but for the sake of 60 seconds or so I can't think of any.

It may well be that guards get a letter if they are just 2 minutes behind schedule, and I'm questioning why there aren't allowances for this sort of action. I guess having exceptions to a rule is the start of a precedent...

 

[yorkie]

The ridiculous delay attribution system has come in for heavy criticism (and rightly so) in various threads including Overuse of "Waiting at Signal" button?

Yes exactly. I know most routes will have connections that could be missed by other passengers, but in this case the only interchange is at Ash Vale and the connection time there on Sundays is around 15 minutes! Of course some people could well have connections outside of the railway, but for the sake of 60 seconds or so I can't think of any.

It may well be that guards get a letter if they are just 2 minutes behind schedule, and I'm questioning why there aren't allowances for this sort of action. I guess having exceptions to a rule is the start of a precedent...

There is no legitimate excuse for the railway not holding this particular connection in the circumstances described; don't let anyone convince you to doubt that what you experienced is no way to run a railway.

 

[Starmill]

If passengers are on the platform and walking towards the train it's very unlikely that the train guard would have been able to satisfy themselves that it was safe to depart. To get the train ready for departure at Ascot, they would need to be standing where they were able to see people rushing down the stairs, and from that location they would also have been able to see the other train arriving a couple of minutes earlier. It is not difficult to forsee a strong likelihood that people hurrying down stairs no more than 30 - 40 seconds away from your train are going to attempt to board it after the safety check has been completed. It is also a basic part of route knowledge to know key stations for connections, and Ascot is certainly one of them, so the guard would have known that they weren't simply people arriving late at the station.

Now obviously the guard does have the option to mitigate this risk by asking people to stand back and using their whistle, but it is unlikely that this would be sufficient for as many as six people standing right beside or trying to board a train after they have already pressed the close button. They wouldn't usually have the assistance of platform staff here to ask people on the platform to stand out of the way. One does have to wonder if they really were satisfied that it was safe for the train to depart.

Obviously, this is all separate from the question over precisely what is and isn't in the customer interest. In many cases, but of course, only where they're actually asked, SWR control will agree to have the Aldershot / Guildford service wait at Ascot, to preserve connections, for up to five minutes.

 

[O L Leigh]

There is no legitimate excuse for the railway not holding this particular connection in the circumstances described; don't let anyone convince you to doubt that what you experienced is no way to run a railway.

I guarantee that you won’t like this, but in terms of what is “legitimate”, delay attribution does fall under this heading.

That’s not to excuse the situation, but there’s a lot we don’t know about the motivations behind the guard’s actions. I’m not arguing that this was necessarily the correct course of action under the circumstances but, as has been outlined above, there are a number of possible explanations for it. I’d like to think that the guard would have OK’d a brief delay with Control, but not all are confident enough to do this for various reasons while some can be a bit OCD about keeping to time.

To pick up the OP’s question about how to broach the subject with SWR so as not to get a generic answer (or no answer at all), I don’t think there’s any way of guaranteeing anything on that front. Maybe the best way is a direct approach to whoever the head of customer service might be rather than trying to engage with the social media team.

 

[yorkie]

I guarantee that you won’t like this, but in terms of what is “legitimate”, delay attribution does fall under this heading.

It isn't legitimate - from the customers point of view - in any meaningful sense; indeed by your own admission...

That’s not to excuse the situation,

Exactly, it's not excusable.

but there’s a lot we don’t know about the motivations behind the guard’s actions. I’m not arguing that this was necessarily the correct course of action under the circumstances but, as has been outlined above, there are a number of possible explanations for it. I’d like to think that the guard would have OK’d a brief delay with Control, but not all are confident enough to do this for various reasons while some can be a bit OCD about keeping to time.

I didn't blame the individual Guard or any other individual person but it is inexcusable that the railway acts in this manner.

I am not talking about whether an individual has acted legitimately or correctly; it's the outcome to this situation, as enacted by the railway, which is unacceptable.

 

[zwk500]

I didn't blame the individual Guard or any other individual person but it is inexcusable that the railway acts in this manner.

I think this is the crux of the matter - it is not individual decisions but an overall culture/mindset that prioritises delay targets over sensible services. It's not universal, but it does often happen that 'administrative' running of the railway gets in the way of moving as many people from A to B on time as possible.

However, there are often good reasons why connections can't be hold and it's not always easy for a guard to know in realtime what the impact of waiting would be.

 

[gabrielhj07]

I have to say I had a rather positive experience with SWR on a similar occasion, when a Basingstoke -Salisbury shuttle was held for 3 or so mins to allow for passengers connecting off a delayed 2LXX into Basingstoke.

 

[Cricketer8for9]

And I’ve chosen not to take the train to Addlestone because the last time I did the guard closed the doors just as we headed across the platform at Weybridge at 8pm. I have a choice- those around me that evening getting paid far less and heading home after a long day don’t.

I wasn’t asking much - maybe 20 seconds. Instead we got the railway equivalent of a V sign.

 

[Joey Beauchamp]

I'm not suggesting that this was the case in this instance as I wasn't there and can't see into the guard's cranium, but some people definitely get off on this. I was on a bus where the driver waited at a bus stop with the doors open as a young guy was sprinting for the bus. He then closed the doors as the runner got level with the back of the bus and pulled away as he reached the doors. It was definitely deliberate and I felt really sorry for the guy, who just stood there with a look of disbelief and shock on his face.

 

[PupCuff]

It's worth considering (I am unfamiliar with the specific location) that there may well be stations that you can't see people running down the stairs or across the footbridge from the dispatch position, particularly if it's self dispatch.

I can think of a couple of locations where the dispatch staff are pretty good at flagging up on the radio between platforms of any runners from connecting services, and a couple of locations where there is visibility over a portion of the stairs or footbridge, but if it's self dispatch and the conductor doesn't have a clear view of any runners on the bridge then chances are they're going to get themselves closed up and off.

In these circumstances they're simply not going to know that a given other train is running late and whether any of its passengers are trying to connect. Should there be a system to tell conductors this? Perhaps. But that then introduces all sorts of challenges which one might suggest are disproportionate to the aim.

 

[Craig1122]

And I’ve chosen not to take the train to Addlestone because the last time I did the guard closed the doors just as we headed across the platform at Weybridge at 8pm. I have a choice- those around me that evening getting paid far less and heading home after a long day don’t.

I wasn’t asking much - maybe 20 seconds. Instead we got the railway equivalent of a V sign.

I've a little more sympathy with staff at Weybridge because in this case (unlike the Ascot example) it isn't a booked connection. The timetable is appallingly designed for anyone connecting from the Addlestone direction especially if it's towards Woking.

Even a slightly late departure usually delays the next inward train and ironically can mean missing the 'non connection' towards Basingstoke for those coming in to Weybridge. The real kicker for the direction you describe is that for anyone going to Egham or beyond there's about a 10 minute wait at Virginia Water for an up Reading to go past. So you have 29 minutes to wait at Weybridge and a further 10 at VW...

 

[Starmill]

It's worth considering (I am unfamiliar with the specific location) that there may well be stations that you can't see people running down the stairs or across the footbridge from the dispatch position, particularly if it's self dispatch.

I can think of a couple of locations where the dispatch staff are pretty good at flagging up on the radio between platforms of any runners from connecting services, and a couple of locations where there is visibility over a portion of the stairs or footbridge, but if it's self dispatch and the conductor doesn't have a clear view of any runners on the bridge then chances are they're going to get themselves closed up and off.

In these circumstances they're simply not going to know that a given other train is running late and whether any of its passengers are trying to connect. Should there be a system to tell conductors this? Perhaps. But that then introduces all sorts of challenges which one might suggest are disproportionate to the aim.

In general yes there may be such situations. However Ascot isn't really one of them, as noted above you can't miss the train arriving at the platform opposite or the people hurrying over the footbridge whenever it does.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 5 Mar 2023 ==

I've a little more sympathy with staff at Weybridge because in this case (unlike the Ascot example) it isn't a booked connection. The timetable is appallingly designed for anyone connecting from the Addlestone direction especially if it's towards Woking.

Even a slightly late departure usually delays the next inward train and ironically can mean missing the 'non connection' towards Basingstoke for those coming in to Weybridge. The real kicker for the direction you describe is that for anyone going to Egham or beyond there's about a 10 minute wait at Virginia Water for an up Reading to go past. So you have 29 minutes to wait at Weybridge and a further 10 at VW...

There is however a booked connection from the stopping services to Woking to the service via Addlestone, on weekdays off peak.

 

[dctraindriver]

Poor decision by the guard imo. It’s Sunday, there’s engineering works on the Ash to Guildford line so no quick turnaround. The train arrived at Aldershot on time and not interfering with any other path. Common sense lacking here in this respect.

 

[yorkie]

I have to say I had a rather positive experience with SWR on a similar occasion, when a Basingstoke -Salisbury shuttle was held for 3 or so mins to allow for passengers connecting off a delayed 2LXX into Basingstoke.

That's great to hear and shows this can, and sometimes does happen.

And I’ve chosen not to take the train to Addlestone because the last time I did the guard closed the doors just as we headed across the platform at Weybridge at 8pm. I have a choice- those around me that evening getting paid far less and heading home after a long day don’t.

I wasn’t asking much - maybe 20 seconds. Instead we got the railway equivalent of a V sign.

This is an example of what I was saying earlier; people are deterred from travelling by train (at least for indirect journeys) due to such outcomes. One of the reasons why some people are very reluctant to undertake journeys that involve a change of trains is due to the lack of care taken by the rail industry in terms of maintaining connections, even in instances where the connection is cross-platform, infrequent, and is then missed by a matter of just a few seconds. There is nothing more infuriating to passengers than that, and yet the rail industry considers it to be perfectly acceptable, even in instances where waiting a few seconds would demonstrably have no negative effect further down the line. It's madness.

 

[BrianW]

I'm not suggesting that this was the case in this instance as I wasn't there and can't see into the guard's cranium, but some people definitely get off on this. I was on a bus where the driver waited at a bus stop with the doors open as a young guy was sprinting for the bus. He then closed the doors as the runner got level with the back of the bus and pulled away as he reached the doors. It was definitely deliberate and I felt really sorry for the guy, who just stood there with a look of disbelief and shock on his face.

'On the buses' with Reg Varney and 'Blakie'- part of the driver training to pull away just as the running for the bus person so very nearly got a hold on the pole

 

[pennineuk]

Not all parts of the system are as bad as this Ascot example. At my local station of Lewes, the Brighton-Seaford service is often held for a late running London-Eastbourne service so that the connection is protected.

 

[David Goddard]

Sounds like a very poor show by SWR here. Customers connect between main and branch line trains for most of the dal, all week long at Ascot so the guard would have known that there would be people making the change. Standing at the rear of the four coach Aldershot service in platform three they would have had a clear view of the London train arriving, and would have known it was slightly delayed.

With just an hourly service and a lengthy layover at Aldershot, waiting a minute at Ascot would have harmed no-one.

The times at Ascot for the branch train were already tight today, so could have been better with little impact elsewhere, plus the physical connection time would have been made bit longer than usual as services from London were terminating in platform 1 due to the line towards Bracknell being closed (vice using P2 if working through), so this did not help. This could have been eased by putting the branch train into P2 instead of the usual P3, and of course had the second side of the platform not been closed off a few years ago then there could have even been a cross platform change.