Future of TPE

[daodao]

It will make no difference as it will take the path of the TPE Glasgow/Edinburgh service now

Joining up the current TPE Manchester-Scotland and XC Manchester-Birmingham & beyond services will exacerbate poor time-keeping and the problems that this causes on the Castlefield line. The ex MSJ&A platforms at Piccadilly (13/14) are really only suitable for suburban traffic.

How would you terminate at Victoria? There are no west facing bays and turnaround time tends to be longer for long distance services. South Manchester journeys to Scotland are going to take another 30 mins with a non inclusive cross Manchester tram rather than a same station change at Piccadilly.

A turnback siding (or preferably 2) could be created close to Victoria for long-distance trains terminating there to layover. There is good access to Victoria by tram from most of South Manchester and Trafford.

Victoria platform areas are also unpleasant, and not suited to long distance traffic. The shortcomings have been aired on various threads. Castlefield is a problem, but that can be addressed by ensuring that the timetable through Castlefield has enough slack not to meltdown at the first minor problem.

Victoria is pleasanter to use than the narrow congested ex MSJ&A platforms at Piccadilly (13/14), which are distant from station amenities. The unreliability and poor timekeeping of long distance trains means that they should be kept well away from the ex MSJ&A Castlefield line, which has too many trains (including freight) to provide enough slack in the timetable for it not to meltdown at the first minor problem.

Where would you send Norwich - Liverpool instead then?

A half-hourly semi-fast service could be run from Manchester Airport to Liverpool Lime Street via the CLC line, with fast trains from the Sheffield direction terminating in the main Manchester Piccadilly train shed. Alternatively, the Liverpool-Sheffield/beyond service could continue to run via Castlefield line and the CLC line, provided it is run by a single operator, which I suggest should be EMR. IMO, that is the only possible exception that could be acceptable regarding the removal of long-distance trains from the Castlefield line.

Rail services need to be simplified, lengthy services truncated, and poor operators such as TPE and XC broken up, to improve the current appalling reliability on large sections of the rail network, especially in northern England. Major inter-city flows currently provided by TPE/XC should be passed to other inter-city TOCs (AWC, EMR, LNER and GWR), with the local shorter-distance services passed to local TOCs.

 

[Ken H]

Possibly, but Barnsley area folk do travel north as well, hence it being part of the soft-boundary Leeds City Region. It's one of those "should we restore the West Riding?" issues, as that would also bring Skipton, Harrogate and a few other places back into a common travel area.


Less than three months then (31 March 2023)! OLR has its hands full and TfN only do strategies.

Restoring the west riding would be fun. Sedbergh?

But sucking in Skipton, Harrogate and Selby into the West Yorkshire transport area but these towns support a huge rural hinterland.

 

[Jack Hay]

Are you suggesting that Avanti trains don't stop at both Warrington and Wigan? Is there some good reason why spare capacity on Pendolinos between Warrington and Wigan shouldn't be used to provide local passengers with a service? With no other stations, it is efficient for the local service to be provided by trains that are running anyway, rather than having to put something else on.

Is TPE the local service between Lancaster and Lockerbie, or should there be another 'local' operator as well?

I'm afraid I don't understand your point here Are you saying that the Pendolinos have plenty of spare capacity between Crewe and Preston? That's not my experience. I've had to stand between Warrington and Wigan. Or are you saying that there should not be two operators on the WCML, in which case why does LNR run between Stafford and Crewe, say, when Avanti serves that leg? My point is that TPE competes with Avanti between Preston and Scotland (or Wigan and Scotland dependent on routing), and LNR competes with Avanti between London and Crewe. It is fact, not opinion, that there is no competition between Crewe/Warrington/Wigan. It cannot be on a point of principle because the rest of the route does have competition and it is a well-used stretch!

 

[YorksLad12]

Restoring the west riding would be fun. Sedbergh?

But sucking in Skipton, Harrogate and Selby into the West Yorkshire transport area but these towns support a huge rural hinterland.

Sedbergh, and while we're at it let's get the rest of Yorkshire back. Saddleworth, Delph, Greenfield... Middlesbrough
Skipton, Harrogate and Selby are gateways into those areas as well as out of, of course.

On topic: the "We should merge TPE and Northern" arguments comes round often, the last time being around 10 years ago when plans for the new franchises were being drawn up. What became Rail North Ltd (later merged into TfN) wanted a combined franchise. DfT didn't.

And of the two franchises were merged it would make no difference. There still wouldn't be enough trained/qualified drivers to make a difference, and even if you reversed the practice of only allowing drivers to cover only a small set of signals short stretch of route it would take time to make sure everyone had competency. And the rolling stock issue wouldn't solve itself either. It would just make everyone feel as if something had happened... when nothing would have happened.

(Plus, in a sea of Northern units, the TPE livery is a bit of a bright spot. Getting a bit fed up of the livery homgeneity now.)

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

(Plus, in a sea of Northern units, the TPE livery is a bit of a bright spot. Getting a bit fed up of the livery homogeneity now.)

Just to make your life more difficult on that particular matter, Mayor Burnham of Greater Manchester wants to be train supremo in Greater Manchester with trains, trams. bikes and anything that can move on wheels to be painted bright yellow.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Just to make your life more difficult on that particular matter, Mayor Burnham of Greater Manchester wants to be train supremo in Greater Manchester with trains, trams. bikes and anything that can move on wheels to be painted bright yellow.

Given that both Manchester and the Liverpool City Region like yellow liveries, it doesn't seem entirely out of the question that they might be able to get Northern (West) to use one, with both PTE logos on it.

Not likely to apply to TPE though.

 

[Killingworth]

Given that both Manchester and the Liverpool City Region like yellow liveries, it doesn't seem entirely out of the question that they might be able to get Northern (West) to use one, with both PTE logos on it.

Not likely to apply to TPE though.

Tyne & Wear Metro is also yellow!

 

[Peter Sarf]

Tyne & Wear Metro is also yellow!

The beatles were ahead of their time !.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The beatles were ahead of their time !.

It had totally never occurred to me that Merseytravel's long time use of yellow was to do with that. But it does make sense - Merseyrail kind of is the yellow submarine!

 

[Killingworth]

It had totally never occurred to me that Merseytravel's long time use of yellow was to do with that. But it does make sense - Merseyrail kind of is the yellow submarine!

However TW Metro's yellow livery carried on from Newcastle Corporation Transport's yellow trolley bus livery launched in 1935. However this digression has nothing to do with the future of TPE!

 

[Fleetmaster]

Whatever happens, I hope "Transpennine Express" is retained as brand. It's a pretty cool name, and geographically precise. CrossCountry also, but more for their font and logo.

Northern, not so much.

"Northern" is a 1930s half cab single decker bus belching fumes as it makes its solid tyred bumpy way across sparse hilly countryside to eventually connect you with some form of civilisation, if operating conditions and the driver's constitution permits. Your journey is important to them, if you're a shareholder.

So perhaps they got it right in the first place!

 

[tbtc]

If you need to paint the entire front of the train yellow (for “safety” trains etc) then it makes sense to incorporate it into the livery (See also Eurostar etc)

And applying it to Manchester’s trams is a way of suggesting that these are proper trains (so that Bury etc hasn’t been downgraded, honest), rather than the “suburban” trams in places like Sheffield

 

[MattRat]

Whatever happens, I hope "Transpennine Express" is retained as brand. It's a pretty cool name, and geographically precise. CrossCountry also, but more for their font and logo.

Northern, not so much.

"Northern" is a 1930s half cab single decker bus belching fumes as it makes its solid tyred bumpy way across sparse hilly countryside to eventually connect you with some form of civilisation, if operating conditions and the driver's constitution permits. Your journey is important to them, if you're a shareholder.

So perhaps they got it right in the first place!

Northern are actually running trains though, and also has experience with making a hodge podge fleet work. I think they are one of the few operators who could turn TPE services around.

Granted, it's possibly because being an OLR means the Government running it has one left to scapegoat (always found it weird how everything magically started working when it went OLR), but I'll take any improvement at this point over the current TPE service.

 

[mike57]

TPE are back on the national news today, with the level of cancellations being highlighted again.

TransPennine Express and Avanti West Coast criticised by leaders

Political leaders are meeting in Newcastle to discuss ongoing issues with trains in the North.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[Peter Sarf]

TPE are back on the national news today, with the level of cancellations being highlighted again.

TransPennine Express and Avanti West Coast criticised by leaders

Political leaders are meeting in Newcastle to discuss ongoing issues with trains in the North.

www.bbc.co.uk

Yes not just the BBC news channel are hammering it. It has got that bad. DfT will have to do something - perhaps threaten another TOC with having to take it over !.

 

[Jack Hay]

I wonder what anyone can do. Northern were hopeless when owned by Arriva, got nationalised, still hopeless now. There isn't a spare team of talented railway managers waiting to take over. The prolonged disputes and high levels of absence are making the management jobs impossible, whoever controls the TOCs.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I wonder what anyone can do. Northern were hopeless when owned by Arriva, got nationalised, still hopeless now. There isn't a spare team of talented railway managers waiting to take over. The prolonged disputes and high levels of absence are making the management jobs impossible, whoever controls the TOCs.

What is impossible about implementing an emergency timetable operable using the complement they have?

Avanti did it and it massively reduced the problem.

 

[Snow1964]

TPE are back on the national news today, with the level of cancellations being highlighted again.

TransPennine Express and Avanti West Coast criticised by leaders

Political leaders are meeting in Newcastle to discuss ongoing issues with trains in the North.

www.bbc.co.uk

TPE managed to cancel a train one of the Metro Mayors and a camera crew that were going to interview her were scheduled to use, on way to Northern conference where their poor service was a discussion topic.

Whilst waiting for another train, TV crew had plenty of time to enlarge the story. Interestingly TPE apparently suggested they were offering drivers double overtime as per TV news

 

[LittleAH]

I wonder what anyone can do. Northern were hopeless when owned by Arriva, got nationalised, still hopeless now. There isn't a spare team of talented railway managers waiting to take over. The prolonged disputes and high levels of absence are making the management jobs impossible, whoever controls the TOCs.

It's been done to death on here the causes and the situation.

Ultimately the short-term seems to be a RDW agreement with ASLEF. But ASLEF won't accept until pay rises are sorted out, and some drivers I've spoken to want the old agreement, which in reality they will never get.

Even if its OLR, nothing changes.

 

[MattRat]

What is impossible about implementing an emergency timetable operable using the complement they have?

Avanti did it and it massively reduced the problem.

It was part of a bigger plan. Temporarily cut services till more staff were available, then resume normal service. TPE don't have that bigger plan yet it seems, so no temporary stop gap (because it wouldn't be temporary).

 

[Peter Sarf]

It's been done to death on here the causes and the situation.

Ultimately the short-term seems to be a RDW agreement with ASLEF. But ASLEF won't accept until pay rises are sorted out, and some drivers I've spoken to want the old agreement, which in reality they will never get.

Even if its OLR, nothing changes.

The only hope is that a more realistic timetable is produced reflecting the resources available. Then people can rely on the timetable. Currently too many last minute cancellations.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The only hope is that a more realistic timetable is produced reflecting the resources available. Then people can rely on the timetable. Currently too many last minute cancellations.

Exactly.

If you have to drop it down to an hourly Liverpool-Newcastle and everything else hourly shuttles, say, do it. Keep cutting until you get something you can actually run. It's not hard. It is better to know than to cancel randomly.

 

[LittleAH]

t's not hard.

Wouldn't be too sure about that.

The only hope is that a more realistic timetable is produced reflecting the resources available. Then people can rely on the timetable. Currently too many last minute cancellations.

Where's the resource to do that? TPE have more significant engineering blocks than most TOC's this year (Carstairs, TRU, Hope Valley, ECML etc). DFT need to throw a lot of money at it from an STP point of view.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Wouldn't be too sure about that.

Avanti managed it.

 

[Peter Sarf]

Wouldn't be too sure about that.

Where's the resource to do that? TPE have more significant engineering blocks than most TOC's this year (Carstairs, TRU, Hope Valley, ECML etc). DFT need to throw a lot of money at it from an STP point of view.

Not talking about engineering work, that is a separate issue.

It looks like TPE have a significant number of cancellations every day regardless of engineering work. They make these cancellations at the last minute the day before - too late for people to live with. TPE need to look at what they are generally able to run and cancel the rest months in advance not at the last minute. Frankly TPE as a business are currently miss selling a service - TPE have no real ability or intention of fulfilling the service they sell to their customers.

I am not going to blame TPE for the poor service level but they really need to grasp the reality and come up with a promise they can keep.

 

[Snow1964]

I am not going to blame TPE for the poor service level but they really need to grasp the reality and come up with a promise they can keep.

Why not, who else over the last few years decided how many staff to employ in each role, how much of the network each member of staff are trained to operate (routes signed), and choice of equipment to be operated.

I know they are now under a DfT managed contract, but can't really say they were so tied down under the 2016 award (or the one before that) that they couldn't plan to have sufficient staff trained. It's not like there has been a massive unplanned service expansion in last 3 years that wasn't expected in 2019 before the management contract.

 

[Peter Sarf]

Why not, who else over the last few years decided how many staff to employ in each role, how much of the network each member of staff are trained to operate (routes signed), and choice of equipment to be operated.

I know they are now under a DfT managed contract, but can't really say they were so tied down under the 2016 award (or the one before that) that they couldn't plan to have sufficient staff trained. It's not like there has been a massive unplanned service expansion in last 3 years that wasn't expected in 2019 before the management contract.

Oh I know TPE might have inflicted it on themselves but the further sin is selling tickets for trains that are unlikely to run.

 

[ic31420]

For me the first step in sorting TPE is the installation of a "big bad kick ass MD" a slash and burn and cloth cutting exercise.

Simplify simplify simplify

For me you send the 397 WCML services over to the WCML operation.

You then look at the crews and vehicles available on a daily basis NOT what you theoretically have on a good day and when OT offered is taken up. You then come up with a simplified timetable that actually works and makes the best of what you have it will mean less services run, but those that are advertised will run and where possible with longer trains.

But the key thing is that the advertised services will run, when they say they will. Yes there will be negative press "tpx cuts services to GreatTown form 15 trains a day to 12" but you won't get they " tpx cancel 35% of trains each day" headlines.

As a customer I need that confidence that there is a pretty good chance my train will run. I can't handle or plan around the current situation of random cancellations.

Once this is running the crews will be happier naturally, nobody likes working a failure or getting constantly moaned at by customers. With less requirements for OT to run the day to day service the staff will be less able to hold the job up and those OT hungry monsters (we all know them) will have to take the OT that's on offer of they want it.

All of a sudden the cancellations fall, because we're not Planning, Promising and taking Payments to run service we currently havnt a hope of running.' Its clear that if you go on TPX website you can buy tickets for next week for trains that just won't run.

Once a cut back but deliverable service is running, From that point TPx can rebuild up, with new staff in place to suit before the timetable expands again back to more what they would like.

 

[Fleetmaster]

TPE got an absolute hammering on national and local news tonight.

It's for the chop, for sure.

 

[Ken H]

TPE got an absolute hammering on national and local news tonight.

It's for the chop, for sure.

Is that totally fair?
Are they that bad compared to other TOC's. Like Northern, perhaps?
On other words, is this a network wide issue, and TPE are getting the flak because of politicians and or the press having an agenda?