Reduced frequency of Cross-Country services from Bournemouth to Manchester?

[robintw]

I used to travel quite regularly from Southampton to Oxford on the Cross-Country services from Bournemouth to Manchester, and I'm sure I remember them being hourly. I have reason to travel again next week and the services now seem to be mostly every two hours, with occasional hourly intervals.

When did this change? Was it post-Covid with reduced passenger numbers? The trains were always very full when I last used them, so I was surprised that they have reduced the service levels.

 

[Rich McLean]

Post Covid. Fro the May TT change, Bournemouth to Manchester returns to hourly, with some Reading - Newcastles returning as well. However, there will be a lot less double voyager formations.

 

[py_megapixel]

They're still hourly from Manchester, but 6 of them in each direction start/terminate at Reading. (Not a lot of help for someone trying to travel from Southampton I know!)

 

[47550]

Post Covid. Fro the May TT change, Bournemouth to Manchester returns to hourly, with some Reading - Newcastles returning as well. However, there will be a lot less double voyager formations.

That’s a shame about the double voyagers. Between Manchester and Birmingham they need the doubles otherwise there is extreme overcrowding.

 

[py_megapixel]

That’s a shame about the double voyagers. Between Manchester and Birmingham they need the doubles otherwise there is extreme overcrowding.

Manchester-Bristol should be going back to hourly in May, so there will be no loss of capacity between Manchester and Birmingham. (Two single sets an hour is of course equivalent to one double an hour)

 

[fandroid]

The resumption of hourly Bournemouth to Manchester services is all down to me !!! I wrote to the Basingstoke MP and she passed my letter on to the CEO of Crosscountry. The letter that came back effectively said zilch except that they'd passed my request on to the operations planners "for consideration".


In reality it was probably already in the pipeline, but I'm a bit puzzled as to why they didn't say that. I had a next stage planned where I would write to the local paper. They love a good whinge and would probably accuse CrossCountry of being deliberately nasty to Basingstokers while muddling up all the facts and sowing red herrings everywhere.

 

[47550]

Manchester-Bristol should be going back to hourly in May, so there will be no loss of capacity between Manchester and Birmingham. (Two single sets an hour is of course equivalent to one double an hour)

That depends if they follow the same route (ie via Stoke & Macclesfield) to Manchester. Pre covid I think one went via Crewe and the other via Stoke. Stoke and Macclesfield are both busy stations - so the effect could be the same hourly XC service but with half the capacity. Pre covid the via Stoke / Macc trains were usually overcrowded when I used them (at least as far as Birmingham). IMHO this was exacerbated when the XC service was timed to run just in front of the Avanti Manchester - Macc - Stoke - London service. This isn't the case at the moment but has been until recently.

 

[The Planner]

That depends if they follow the same route (ie via Stoke & Macclesfield) to Manchester. Pre covid I think one went via Crewe and the other via Stoke. Stoke and Macclesfield are both busy stations - so the effect could be the same hourly XC service but with half the capacity. Pre covid the via Stoke / Macc trains were usually overcrowded when I used them (at least as far as Birmingham). IMHO this was exacerbated when the XC service was timed to run just in front of the Avanti Manchester - Macc - Stoke - London service. This isn't the case at the moment but has been until recently.

Only the odd one went via Crewe. The Euston goes 10 minutes before the XC now.

 

[OrangeJuice]

Post Covid. Fro the May TT change, Bournemouth to Manchester returns to hourly, with some Reading - Newcastles returning as well. However, there will be a lot less double voyager formations.

Very few Newcastle readings in the timetable so capacity south of Birmingham will be much reduced.

Also the current capacity from Southampton/Bournemouth north is terrible. After morning doubles up to 1015 from Southampton Central the 12:15 and 14:15 both singles. 16:15 is double but only going to Birmingham, not Manchester at the moment. Then 17:15 is also a single. At least most from reading in those gaps are doubles.

The single sets I've been on have been busy with lots standing in the vestibules, but with double sets they'd probably have quieter areas at front/back because people don't walk down platforms (not that there's time) and the fact you can't walk between sets.

Edited to add: I do hope they add in these extras south of reading and eventually the Newcastle's in full too and with the better frequencies I'm sure the single sets will be back to full and standing like they used to be as it's not easy planning journeys in the lower frequencies. Journeys suggestions via London are probably more common at the moment.

 

[47550]

Only the odd one went via Crewe. The Euston goes 10 minutes before the XC now.

Yes it's better at the moment, but pre Avanti meltdown it XC was just in front of the Avanti

 

[The Planner]

Yes it's better at the moment, but pre Avanti meltdown it XC was just in front of the Avanti

It stays like this as its part of the Dec 22 timetable.

 

[irish_rail]

The resumption of hourly Bournemouth to Manchester services is all down to me !!! I wrote to the Basingstoke MP and she passed my letter on to the CEO of Crosscountry. The letter that came back effectively said zilch except that they'd passed my request on to the operations planners "for consideration".


In reality it was probably already in the pipeline, but I'm a bit puzzled as to why they didn't say that. I had a next stage planned where I would write to the local paper. They love a good whinge and would probably accuse CrossCountry of being deliberately nasty to Basingstokers while muddling up all the facts and sowing red herrings everywhere.

So its you we can thank down in the south west for no additional trains but no doubt far fewer doubled up sets . Thanks alot.

 

[py_megapixel]

So its you we can thank down in the south west for no additional trains but no doubt far fewer doubled up sets . Thanks alot.

Is that really such an issue in the grand scheme of things though? Don't forget until 2020 double sets on XC were almost unheard of anyway - all this is is a return to form (albeit a gradual one). Of course overcrowding has been an issue since the Virgin days but I don't think the south west is the worst place for it.

 

[JonathanH]

As noted in another thread CrossCountry believe that they can "run a more efficient service that also reflects the way people are now travelling for business and leisure" from May which "requires fewer trains to deliver the number of seats customers need at present."

https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/crosscountry-hst-diagrams.176519/page-40#post-6102215

 

[irish_rail]

Is that really such an issue in the grand scheme of things though? Don't forget until 2020 double sets on XC were almost unheard of anyway - all this is is a return to form (albeit a gradual one). Of course overcrowding has been an issue since the Virgin days but I don't think the south west is the worst place for it.

Yes but there isn't even an hourly service anymore from Plymouth northwards. So its a reduction in seats. And axing the HST fleet will truly be twisting the knife. I think this is very very worrying times for the SW to NE route....

 

[Watershed]

As noted in another thread CrossCountry believe that they can "run a more efficient service that also reflects the way people are now travelling for business and leisure" from May which "requires fewer trains to deliver the number of seats customers need at present."

https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/crosscountry-hst-diagrams.176519/page-40#post-6102215

What a load of euphemistic PR twaddle. It'd be nice if they didn't try and spin it as some sort of improvement!

 

[lammergeier]

As noted in another thread CrossCountry believe that they can "run a more efficient service that also reflects the way people are now travelling for business and leisure" from May which "requires fewer trains to deliver the number of seats customers need at present."

https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/crosscountry-hst-diagrams.176519/page-40#post-6102215

XC actually need more trains to deliver more seats, as anyone recently left behind or squashed into a vestibule will attest to. But there we go. Providing required capacity plays second fiddle to government cuts, so we are where we are.

 

[Snow1964]

We actually need more trains to deliver more seats, as anyone recently left behind or squashed into a vestibule will attest to. But there we go. Providing required capacity plays second fiddle to government cuts, so we are where we are.

It all goes back to the way Operation Princess was introduced, couldn't switch to more frequent service until lots of extra trains.

They started with temporary shorter trains, which is why coach B and E don't exist on 220s and coach E on 221s. They were planned to be added later as passenger numbers built up.

..... but never were added, and now got low capacity trains, but not enough to double up trains to cover the whole timetable. They are now too old to lengthen as wouldn't get a decent life out of extra coaches.

Really it comes down to if once the Avanti voyagers and East Midlands 222s come free, can any sensible reforming to make some 6car or 7car single sets be made for services where loadings are too much for single set, but excessive for double set. But all bogged down in politics and subsidies for the railways.

 

[43055]

Yes but there isn't even an hourly service anymore from Plymouth northwards. So its a reduction in seats. And axing the HST fleet will truly be twisting the knife. I think this is very very worrying times for the SW to NE route....

The full hourly service to Plymouth and Edinburgh returns in May along with more services extending to Penzance.

 

[JonathanH]

The full hourly service to Plymouth and Edinburgh returns in May along with more services extending to Penzance.

With shorter trains.

 

[irish_rail]

The full hourly service to Plymouth and Edinburgh returns in May along with more services extending to Penzance.

Personally I'd bin the Penzance stuff, even though it is fairly well used, for now at least if it meant we could have additional 8 or 9 car trains north of Plymouth. 4 and 5 car trains on many services simply won't cut it, especially May to September and all school holiday times. XC travel is about to get a whole lot more grim.......

 

[Watershed]

XC travel is about to get a whole lot more grim

Surely not much more grim than it was pre-Covid. Whilst the loss of the HSTs is symbolic of everything that's wrong with the DfT's penny wise pound foolish attitude, XC has long been a grim way to travel.

 

[irish_rail]

Surely not much more grim than it was pre-Covid. Whilst the loss of the HSTs is symbolic of everything that's wrong with the DfT's penny wise pound foolish attitude, XC has long been a grim way to travel.

Pre covid wasn't there an Exeter to Manchester services though? Also , its a big growth route. More and more people are choosing train where possible over driving. Sticking with what we have had for past 15 years or so (which by the way is worse than pre Voyager days when we had 7 coach trains) is hardly going to encourage environmental change and improvement. If levelling up is going to happen we need to stop throwing ten coach trains of fresh air at southern commuter routes and look at where people are actually travelling. Id also argue journey time should be a factor ( ie on routes where the typical journey is several hours or more, more consideration should be given to providing seats and avoiding standees at all costs).

 

[185143]

Pre covid wasn't there an Exeter to Manchester services though? Also , its a big growth route. More and more people are choosing train where possible over driving. Sticking with what we have had for past 15 years or so (which by the way is worse than pre Voyager days when we had 7 coach trains) is hardly going to encourage environmental change and improvement. If levelling up is going to happen we need to stop throwing ten coach trains of fresh air at southern commuter routes and look at where people are actually travelling. Id also argue journey time should be a factor ( ie on routes where the typical journey is several hours or more, more consideration should be given to providing seats and avoiding standees at all costs).

As much as I agree, let's not push that idea too much, or we'll end up in a world of compulsory reservations. Would be by far the cheapest way to do it, so would you put it past the DfT?

 

[43074]

If levelling up is going to happen we need to stop throwing ten coach trains of fresh air at southern commuter routes and look at where people are actually travelling.

If you looked at where people are actually travelling you'd still end up with ten coaches on southern commuter routes as they aren't carrying fresh air, London still accounts for a disproportionately high number of passenger journeys relative to everywhere else.

 

[Falcon1200]

( ie on routes where the typical journey is several hours or more, more consideration should be given to providing seats and avoiding standees at all costs).

Which is a laudable objective, however many of XC's trains provide both long-distance services and local connections; For example, the Reading/Manchester route forms most of the service between Oxford and Banbury, and a proportion of the fast trains in the Coventry/Birmingham/Wolverhampton corridor. Those going a long way can of course reserve seats, in XC's case when the train is actually en route, albeit that can cause new issues....

 

[irish_rail]

Which is a laudable objective, however many of XC's trains provide both long-distance services and local connections; For example, the Reading/Manchester route forms most of the service between Oxford and Banbury, and a proportion of the fast trains in the Coventry/Birmingham/Wolverhampton corridor. Those going a long way can of course reserve seats, in XC's case when the train is actually en route, albeit that can cause new issues....

The Bournemouth to Manchester route is more of a short hop route in many ways , which is why I'd hope it will take more 4 cars and the 5s go to the SW to NE, although I don't expect that to be the case. Standing from Oxford to Banbury, or Wolves to Stoke is not quite in the same league as Exeter to Birmingham. Though i do accept there are still plenty of longer trips on this route, which makes this whole XC mess all the worse. Bransons folly really coming home to roost , for a second time.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 5 Mar 2023 ==

If you looked at where people are actually travelling you'd still end up with ten coaches on southern commuter routes as they aren't carrying fresh air, London still accounts for a disproportionately high number of passenger journeys relative to everywhere else.

I guess the problem is its fresh air during the day time and busy in the peaks. And this is considered acceptable. Yet on XC the trains are busy all day long.

 

[Nev20]

The Bournemouth to Manchester route is more of a short hop route in many ways , which is why I'd hope it will take more 4 cars and the 5s go to the SW to NE, although I don't expect that to be the case. Standing from Oxford to Banbury, or Wolves to Stoke is not quite in the same league as Exeter to Birmingham. Though i do accept there are still plenty of longer trips on this route, which makes this whole XC mess all the worse. Bransons folly really coming home to roost , for a second time.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 5 Mar 2023 ==


I guess the problem is its fresh air during the day time and busy in the peaks. And this is considered acceptable. Yet on XC the trains are busy all day long.

You’ve not been on a Reading-Manchester route when a Manchester team is at home and it’s really showing suggesting it has the 4 cars!

 

[class68fan]

The Bournemouth to Manchester route is more of a short hop route in many ways , which is why I'd hope it will take more 4 cars and the 5s go to the SW to NE, although I don't expect that to be the case. Standing from Oxford to Banbury, or Wolves to Stoke is not quite in the same league as Exeter to Birmingham. Though i do accept there are still plenty of longer trips on this route, which makes this whole XC mess all the worse. Bransons folly really coming home to roost , for a second time.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 5 Mar 2023 ==


I guess the problem is its fresh air during the day time and busy in the peaks. And this is considered acceptable. Yet on XC the trains are busy all day long.

Like the west county service the south coast service is mix of long and short trip. Need the Newcastle - south service hourly again. What needed is 7 car bi IET with 3 rail capable for south cost service for all cross county.

 

[185143]

Like the west county service the south coast service is mix of long and short trip. Need the Newcastle - south service hourly again. What needed is 7 car bi IET with 3 rail capable for south cost service for all cross county.

Permanently couple the 769s that were intended for GWR and send them XC's way!That's 8 coaches, 1st class, the lot!