Is this a rip-off?

[trainophile]

Chester to Crewe (Virgin) £9.50 for 19 minutes travel! hock:

 

[Ivo]

Yes, but there are worse ones out there. And Chester to Crewe is priced by ATW, which says a lot; Virgin may be expensive but even they are better value than the two Arriva franchises. (And that's not my bias speaking; it's fact.)

Compare Cheltenham Spa to University (Birmingham). It is approximately 35 minutes' travel; yet it costs more than £20 - for an Off-Peak Single!

Sorry if that sounds like I'm being a git

 

[Flying Snail]

Chester to Crewe (Virgin) £9.50 for 19 minutes travel! hock:

It is £9.70 return for a 21 mile journey each way.

Chester-Crewe is an ATW set fare not Virgin, valid on all trains on the route.

 

[trainophile]

I don't know how Arriva have the nerve to be expensive given the age and state of most of their rolling stock. Not sure how it works that they price the journey but Virgin delivers it, but then there's much I don't understand about the intricacies of rail service organization.

If only one TOC runs a service from A to B I'd have thought there should be some controls over pricing, as it isn't open to the traveller to choose a more competitive operator. Isn't this the sort of thing the Monopolies Commission should look at, if such a thing still exists?

 

[RPI]

Doesn't matter how long it takes but more how many miles, Exeter to London is just under 200 miles but 2 hours and £39.00 SSS, yet Exeter to Penzance is 132 miles but 3 hours and is £17.60 CDS

 

[yorkie]

Chester to Crewe (Virgin) £9.50 for 19 minutes travel! hock:

I don't understand
a) what this has to do with Virgin; or
b) what value price per journey time has?

As for whether it is a rip-off or not, that's subjective, so you are asking for opinions.

In my opinion the fare is a rip-off, but it's nothing to do with Virgin and it's nothing to do with the journey time (although the faster the journey, the better value, arguably)
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

If only one TOC runs a service from A to B I'd have thought there should be some controls over pricing, as it isn't open to the traveller to choose a more competitive operator. Isn't this the sort of thing the Monopolies Commission should look at, if such a thing still exists?

No.

And there is a control on pricing on this route, there has to be a return fare that increases no greater than a certain percentage (decided by government) plus inflation, the regulated fare for this flow is currently £12.90, and set to increase massively over the next few years in line with Government policy.

 

[trainophile]

Sorry for any stupidity re. "what's it got to do with Virgin?". As a mere passenger I assumed that the train operator would have some say in the price charged, but I now understand that this assumption is incorrect.

As for the return fare being £9.70, I was only looking at going one way. For info I have a through ticket Southport to Hereford for tomorrow, but see that there is a signalling problem between Hooton and Chester. If this is not fixed overnight and a bus replacement is in place, I might conceivably miss my Chester to Hereford connection, so was pricing up how much it would cost to go to Crewe instead and then to Hereford from there, rather than wait two hours for the next Chester to Hereford. I was just a bit shocked that it would cost more than half the price of my ticket for the entire journey. In fact as I am travelling on a Club55 promotion ticket the entire journey is £8 each way! Hence my surprise at £9.50 for a very small section of an alternative route.

Apologies for relating minutes in transit to value, when apparently I should be thinking in terms of miles. I had assumed that as none of the services I use are exactly high speed (although arguably Chester to Crewe probably does crack on a bit faster than those parts of the journey with stops along the way) there might be some relationship between the two.

As I have never bought walk-on tickets (well not in the last 10 years anyway) I am often taken aback at how expensive some journeys can be. Thank goodness for Advance and Club55.

 

[WestCoast]

I was whinging about the price of a ticket on a Virgin route to their customer services and then I found out it was set by Northern
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TOCs tend to have nasty fares when they have to share their revenue I've noticed!

ATW have some really odd anomalies - the tickets from a station less than 2 miles from the other one are so much cheaper and there is no PTE?! I'll not give away the stations (in case they change it) but you might know..

 

[premier01]

I was whinging about the price of a ticket on a Virgin route to their customer services and then I found out it was set by Northern
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
TOCs tend to have nasty fares when they have to share their revenue I've noticed!

ATW have some really odd anomalies - the tickets from a station less than 2 miles from the other one are so much cheaper and there is no PTE?! I'll not give away the stations (in case they change it) but you might know..

I'm not sure about how the prices are set but VT operate on that route so can understand why initial question directed at them.

Although not trains I can't get the reasoning for why Stagecoach bus charge £1.40 for travelling 1/4 mile-on that basis the orginal journey would be over £50!

As for journey time v mileage a VT Preston to London SDS is about £140 and takes 2 hours 8 mins whereas Northern Preston to York is about £40 and takes 2 hours 30 mins!

 

[Flying Snail]

Sorry for any stupidity re. "what's it got to do with Virgin?". As a mere passenger I assumed that the train operator would have some say in the price charged, but I now understand that this assumption is incorrect.

Fares are usually set by the operator who runs most of the trains, in the case of Crewe-Chester in one direction VT run 14 trains ATW run 21. (Based on the May-Dec 09 timetable)

As for the return fare being £9.70, I was only looking at going one way. For info I have a through ticket Southport to Hereford for tomorrow, but see that there is a signalling problem between Hooton and Chester. If this is not fixed overnight and a bus replacement is in place, I might conceivably miss my Chester to Hereford connection, so was pricing up how much it would cost to go to Crewe instead and then to Hereford from there, rather than wait two hours for the next Chester to Hereford. I was just a bit shocked that it would cost more than half the price of my ticket for the entire journey. In fact as I am travelling on a Club55 promotion ticket the entire journey is £8 each way! Hence my surprise at £9.50 for a very small section of an alternative route.

Via Crewe would probably be a valid route for that but I don't fancy going through the routing guide at this time of night to check. However if you are stuck at Chester due to a rail delay the staff there should endorse your ticket to allow you get the next fastest connection anyway so no need to go buying additional tickets.

Apologies for relating minutes in transit to value, when apparently I should be thinking in terms of miles. I had assumed that as none of the services I use are exactly high speed (although arguably Chester to Crewe probably does crack on a bit faster than those parts of the journey with stops along the way) there might be some relationship between the two.

Traditionally all fares were distance based with differences for express, commuter and stopping services.

 

[Ivo]

Via Crewe would probably be a valid route for that but I don't fancy going through the routing guide at this time of night to check. However if you are stuck at Chester due to a rail delay the staff there should endorse your ticket to allow you get the next fastest connection anyway so no need to go buying additional tickets.

I'll do it for you!

For anyone who may not be aware... Southport comes under Liverpool, Preston and Wigan Routeing Points (you'd think it would have its own...), whilst Hereford comes under, well, Hereford. For this route to be valid, at least one of the former three must appear on a map that has both Chester-Crewe and Hereford, unless the use of multiple maps for one route is permitted as is often the case outside of London, on it. For the purposes of this journey, I am going to choose Liverpool and not Preston or Wigan, as one would assume that this journey would involve use of Merseyrail services via Liverpool Central.

"Liverpool" [Southport] to Hereford is valid via five routes that require "multiple maps" (as noted above), and one that is direct:

• CC+CE
• CE+CC+CH
• CE+CC+ML
• CE+ME
• ML+WL
• WL

Liverpool to Hereford via Chester and Crewe is permitted, and then via two different routes to the south. From Crewe you can go via either Birmingham or Shrewsbury, but seemingly not both (which does make sense).

On a side note, I cannot find any trace of the Northern Line between Sandhills and Southport at all! Apparently a station with 3,000,000 users every year and its 20-mile branch do not exist...

 

[trainophile]

I'll do it for you!

For anyone who may not be aware... Southport comes under Liverpool, Preston and Wigan Routeing Points (you'd think it would have its own...), whilst Hereford comes under, well, Hereford. For this route to be valid, at least one of the former three must appear on a map that has both Chester-Crewe and Hereford, unless the use of multiple maps for one route is permitted as is often the case outside of London, on it. For the purposes of this journey, I am going to choose Liverpool and not Preston or Wigan, as one would assume that this journey would involve use of Merseyrail services via Liverpool Central.

"Liverpool" [Southport] to Hereford is valid via five routes that require "multiple maps" (as noted above), and one that is direct:

• CC+CE
• CE+CC+CH
• CE+CC+ML
• CE+ME
• ML+WL
• WL

Liverpool to Hereford via Chester and Crewe is permitted, and then via two different routes to the south. From Crewe you can go via either Birmingham or Shrewsbury, but seemingly not both (which does make sense).

On a side note, I cannot find any trace of the Northern Line between Sandhills and Southport at all! Apparently a station with 3,000,000 users every year and its 20-mile branch do not exist...

Can someone fix the glitches on this site that seem to prevent me posting a reply via my mobile without including previous post? Also reply box doesn't always scroll when visible area is full. Is it just me? Tbc...


--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Can someone fix the glitches on this site that seem to prevent me posting a reply via my mobile without including previous post? Also reply box doesn't always scroll when visible area is full. Is it just me? Tbc...

Thanks for all the useful info re. permitted routes. However Club55 tickets are endorsed ATW & MRail only, hence me thinking I'd need to buy a Virgin ticket. Anyway seems signal problem fixed so panic over!

 

[bb21]

If you can get the ticket endorsed then I wouldn't imagine there being much problem.

Otherwise if you have to wait for two hours then you will get pretty substantial compensation according to their Customer Charter.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

....Compare Cheltenham Spa to University (Birmingham). It is approximately 35 minutes' travel; yet it costs more than £20 - for an Off-Peak Single!....

To make that sound even worse Wolverhampton to Worcester is £10.20 off-peak single and is valid via University and Cheltenham Spa, infact I had a relatively comfy ride on two HSTs last Tuesday using the Anytime Return (New St. to Cheltenham and back).

 

[tony_mac]

To make that sound even worse Wolverhampton to Worcester is £10.20 off-peak single and is valid via University and Cheltenham Spa

I can't see how that ticket is valid via Cheltenham!

 

[island]

There are a lot of daft easements around that area, although I'm too busy to look them up at the moment.

 

[clagmonster]

I don't also. You would be doubling back through Ashchurch, there is no Cheltenham group so the group station rule does not apply and I can't see a relevent easement. Hairy Handed Fool, am I missing something?
Island, in terms of possible easements, there are some allowing doubling back to New St when travelling from Bromsgrove or Barnt Green, but they aren't relevent in this case. Unless I've missed one.

 

[John @ home]

East Coast says No fares have been found for your selected service.

National Rail Enquiries says You need to buy more than one ticket for this journey.

I wonder whether the system used by hairyhandedfool has not been updated to reflect the re-opening of Ashchurch for Tewkesbury station on 1 June 1997.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I'll do it for you!
"Liverpool" [Southport] to Hereford is valid via five routes that require "multiple maps" (as noted above), and one that is direct:
:

It's much simpler than that.
Assuming you are on an ATW 55-plus ticket with Merseyrail add-on, this ticket is valid via any ATW route. So you can do Chester-Shrewsbury via Crewe as long as it is on an ATW service (ie nn55 from Chester to Crewe rather than Virgin at nn35). On the other hand you will have longer to wait at Crewe for the Hereford train.

On the main issue of "rip-off", Chester-Crewe may be £9.50 SDS, but it is only £9.70 SDR. Oddly Chester-Shrewsbury CDR is only £8.70 valid either via Wrexham or Crewe (any operator).

Fares from Chester are "expensive" on former North Western or VT routes and "cheap" on former Central and Merseyrail routes. eg CDR to Birmingham is £17.10 (any route) while Manchester is £14.50 for half the distance.

Richard

 

[Railjet]

Yes, but there are worse ones out there. And Chester to Crewe is priced by ATW, which says a lot; Virgin may be expensive but even they are better value than the two Arriva franchises. (And that's not my bias speaking; it's fact.)

ATW is responsible for some decent fares. Birmingham - Wrexham CDR via Shrewsbury or Crewe/Chester for £14.10, for example. No CDR is available BHM - Crewe, so it's much better than a £22.10 SVR (set by LM).

 

[Statto]

East Coast says No fares have been found for your selected service.

National Rail Enquiries says You need to buy more than one ticket for this journey.

I wonder whether the system used by hairyhandedfool has not been updated to reflect the re-opening of Ashchurch for Tewkesbury station on 1 June 1997.

I've looked on LM[as the service is operated by them]its £14:70 AR[£13:30 OPR] Wolves-Worcester

Correction, i forgot to add via Cheltenham, when i did add it & it came up with no fares found.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

I can't see how that ticket is valid via Cheltenham!

It appears I missed going through Ashchurch (having only looked at the routeing guide maps (CE+MW, CE+LM)

Although 2 XC guards were quite happy for me to use it that way last week, so that's also my rather lame excuse for not being right!:roll:

EDIT: Actually looking again it is almost possible, although it'd have to be Worcester-Wolverhampton

CE: Worcester-Smethwick (avoiding Galton Bridge)-Birmingham New St.-Cheltenham-Swindon.
MW: Swindon-Didcot-Banbury-Tyseley-Birmingham Snow Hill-Smethwick Galton Bridge-Wolverhampton.

The only downside being that I can't see a train between Langley Green and Smethwick Rolfe St. (or similar)

 

[Rod Whitaker]

Chester to Crewe (Virgin) £9.50 for 19 minutes travel! hock:

Just looked at Leeds to York 20 minutes on Trans Pennine. £7.35 return with senior railcard. I think its over £10 normal fare.

 

[merlodlliw]

ATW give a similar fare £4.50 anytime single Chester to Wrexham a couple of miles less than Crewe. so £9 rtn in singles. one an hour

Arriva bus (same owners DB) bus every 12 mins or less every hour Chester rail station to Wrexham fare return £4.20 ten mins longer travel.



Bob