• Our new ticketing site is now live! Using either this or the original site (both powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

Luton DART and Luton Airport Parkway Updates

Status
Not open for further replies.

Watershed

Veteran Member
Associate Staff
Senior Fares Advisor
Joined
26 Sep 2020
Messages
16,824
Location
UK
Not quite sure why it's unbelievable - isn't it a good thing that they are doing things 'properly'?
I fail to see how it's remotely proportionate to introduce a strict liability Byelaw offence and Penalty Fares scheme for a fully-gated, two-station people mover such as this. The latter is particularly insidious since the Order gives LLA the power to arbitrarily increase the value of the Penalty Fare whenever they want.

There are so many things wrong with this project, and this just about summarises it.
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

Ediswan

Established Member
Joined
15 Nov 2012
Messages
3,461
Location
Stevenage
I fail to see how it's remotely proportionate to introduce a strict liability Byelaw offence and Penalty Fares scheme for a fully-gated, two-station people mover such as this. The latter is particularly insidious since the Order gives LLA the power to arbitrarily increase the value of the Penalty Fare whenever they want.
Only with the written consent of the Secretary of State 9(2)(a).

It also creates the situation where most PFs now require DoB to be provided, but DART does not.
 

Haywain

Veteran Member
Joined
3 Feb 2013
Messages
24,866
I have seen reports suggesting that either.....

1. ENCTS* will be valid on DART, or.....

2. Only Luton area resident pensioners will receive free travel

2. seems much more likely than 1. - does anyone know the definitive answer?


* ENCTS - English National Concessionary Travel Scheme (providing free travel for elderly/disabled people in some circumstances)

[Edited to clarify meaning of ENCTS]

The Luton Rising (airport owning company) website says:
All passengers holding a concessionary bus pass, such as pensioners, people with a disability or acting as companion travellers, will be entitled to free travel on the Luton DART.
And regarding through ticketing it also states:
The DART transfer is included in any rail ticket where customers choose Luton Airport as the start or end point of the journey, available from all national rail retailers.
Which presumably means that current tickets with a destination of Luton Airport will be accepted, alongside those issued to Luton Airport Parkway DART. I would expect that the two destinations are not likely to be available concurrently.
 

ijmad

Established Member
Joined
7 Jan 2016
Messages
1,858
Location
UK
I took part in an evacuation trial using the walkway to a train on the other track. What was noteworthy is that disabled passengers in wheelchairs have to stay on the train as does passenger’s luggage.
Also for the most part, only small sections of the walkway are at carriage floor height but there was still an 18 inch gap.

Why are the onboard announcements in this video describing the Airport station as "The train"?

"We are now approaching the train", "We have reached the train"...
 

JaJaWa

Established Member
Joined
14 Feb 2013
Messages
1,737
Location
⠀
Why are the onboard announcements in this video describing the Airport station as "The train"?

"We are now approaching the train", "We have reached the train"...

They are describing the train station, perhaps a decision was made to drop the word "station" from all the announcements without considering the consequences.
 

philthetube

Established Member
Joined
5 Jan 2016
Messages
4,200
I took part in an evacuation trial using the walkway to a train on the other track. What was noteworthy is that disabled passengers in wheelchairs have to stay on the train as does passenger’s luggage.
Also for the most part, only small sections of the walkway are at carriage floor height but there was still an 18 inch gap.


That's poor, in my opinion. If an incident is serious enough to need to detrain, it should be possible to detrain. If it's acceptable to have people remain on the train, why not everyone?
Totally agree really poor. While not defending anything there is a big difference between having a crush loaded dart stuck for an hour and a couple of disabled passengers, and possibly their families stuck with loads of seats and room to stretch out.
 

Mag_seven

Forum Staff
Staff Member
Global Moderator
Joined
1 Sep 2014
Messages
12,029
Location
here to eternity
They are describing the train station, perhaps a decision was made to drop the word "station" from all the announcements without considering the consequences.

Of course we all know the correct phrase it should use is "Railway Station" <D
 

mrmartin

Established Member
Joined
17 Dec 2012
Messages
1,304
Really the chat of through ticketing costs for this is fairly moot in my eyes.

Firstly, for the current bus nearly everyone pays for contactless or has a staff pass, at least on the (many) times I've used it. Few have a through ticket. To be honest I doubt the average person even realises that luton airport tickets include the bus! I doubt this will change much for DART, though I suppose there is more option for signage potentially.

Secondly, for people going to/from London (the vast majority?) it looks like contactless on tfl + paying for the DART separately on contactless is virtually the same or cheaper than getting a through ticket

From St Pancras for example peak:

Through ticket to Luton Airport: £18.90 (I have a feeling this may go up when DART is fully running a fair bit)
Contactless: £14.40 + £4.90 DART £19.30 (and no queuing for ticket machines)

Off peak:

£18.90 through ticket
Contactless £10.60 + £4.90 = £15.50

There is a super off peak ticket valid on weekends and bank holidays for £14.10 though.

Again, not a major discount whatsoever for through tickets currently and whatever saving there is could vanish with the new Luton Aiport DART fare (and they discontinue the current Luton Airport fare).
 

Watershed

Veteran Member
Associate Staff
Senior Fares Advisor
Joined
26 Sep 2020
Messages
16,824
Location
UK
Firstly, for the current bus nearly everyone pays for contactless or has a staff pass, at least on the (many) times I've used it. Few have a through ticket. To be honest I doubt the average person even realises that luton airport tickets include the bus!
That's certainly not been my experience.

From St Pancras for example peak:

Through ticket to Luton Airport: £18.90 (I have a feeling this may go up when DART is fully running a fair bit)
Contactless: £14.40 + £4.90 DART £19.30 (and no queuing for ticket machines)

Off peak:

£18.90 through ticket
Contactless £10.60 + £4.90 = £15.50

There is a super off peak ticket valid on weekends and bank holidays for £14.10 though.
You can't really compare paper tickets with contactless on a one-way journey.

Almost everyone travelling to or from the airport will be making a return journey, for which they'd buy an Anytime or Off-Peak Return if getting a paper ticket. For a 'peak' time journey you've already established that a through paper ticket is cheaper, and an Anytime Return is twice the single so that remains true for a return journey. For an 'off-peak' journey, the Off-Peak Return costs £32.80, so £16.40 per journey - barely more than the contactless 'split' fare.

It's also worth noting that on contactless, peak fares are charged when leaving London between 16:00-19:00 in the evening, whereas the Off-Peak Return only has a small restricted band, between 17:30-18:30.
 

mrmartin

Established Member
Joined
17 Dec 2012
Messages
1,304
Don't know if the assumption that 'almost everyone' will be doing a return is true, given it is a budget airport. I often fly out of a different London airport than I land, because it can be a lot cheaper and you can get better flight times doing that.

I did look at returns though and they are either marginally cheaper or more expensive. Given contactless is so much more convenient I can't see many people doing that, especially given how confusing the ticket options are for people who aren't au fait with ticketing and just want to get to the airport. I certainly wouldn't think the off peak evening restriction was only 17:30-18:30 as you point out, for example. At least with contactless you always buy the "right" ticket, especially if flights are early or delayed.
 

bspahh

Established Member
Joined
5 Jan 2017
Messages
2,449
With a ticket, you can use a Network railcard and get 1/3rd off trips after 10am. That makes a single from St Pancras to Luton Airport £13.80
 

Joe Paxton

Established Member
Joined
12 Jan 2017
Messages
2,959
Don't know if the assumption that 'almost everyone' will be doing a return is true, given it is a budget airport. I often fly out of a different London airport than I land, because it can be a lot cheaper and you can get better flight times doing that.

Agreed. I'd say 'the majority', but I've done as you've done and flown back to a different airport - or indeed taken a train or gone by ferry & car one way and flown the other way.
 

Watershed

Veteran Member
Associate Staff
Senior Fares Advisor
Joined
26 Sep 2020
Messages
16,824
Location
UK
Don't know if the assumption that 'almost everyone' will be doing a return is true, given it is a budget airport. I often fly out of a different London airport than I land, because it can be a lot cheaper and you can get better flight times doing that.
I do that all the time personally (I've had trips where I've flown out on Ryanair and back on BA - bit of a contrast!) but you have to recognise that this is a minority pursuit, a bit like split ticketing was until fairly recently.

I did look at returns though and they are either marginally cheaper or more expensive. Given contactless is so much more convenient I can't see many people doing that, especially given how confusing the ticket options are for people who aren't au fait with ticketing and just want to get to the airport. I certainly wouldn't think the off peak evening restriction was only 17:30-18:30 as you point out, for example. At least with contactless you always buy the "right" ticket, especially if flights are early or delayed.
People don't tend to choose contactless vs paper tickets based on which one is actually more expensive. If they know (or think) that they can use contactless, most people will do so because they assume it's always cheaper.

As others have said, with a Network Railcard (which is again a minority pursuit in the grand scheme of things, and of course virtually no tourist will have one) paper tickets are far cheaper after 10am, and even more so on a weekend.
 

miklcct

Established Member
Joined
2 May 2021
Messages
5,017
Location
Cricklewood
That's certainly not been my experience.


You can't really compare paper tickets with contactless on a one-way journey.

Almost everyone travelling to or from the airport will be making a return journey, for which they'd buy an Anytime or Off-Peak Return if getting a paper ticket. For a 'peak' time journey you've already established that a through paper ticket is cheaper, and an Anytime Return is twice the single so that remains true for a return journey. For an 'off-peak' journey, the Off-Peak Return costs £32.80, so £16.40 per journey - barely more than the contactless 'split' fare.

It's also worth noting that on contactless, peak fares are charged when leaving London between 16:00-19:00 in the evening, whereas the Off-Peak Return only has a small restricted band, between 17:30-18:30.
Thanks for pointing out. I honestly thought I would need two singles to make a return because an off-peak period return isn't available from my home station.

However, I'll still go for the 757 since it's cheaper, faster, and more convenient when starting from Brent Cross.

I'd say that the 757 wins the train for anywhere within North London.
 

jon0844

Veteran Member
Joined
1 Feb 2009
Messages
31,002
Location
UK
Using contactless is also an issue for a family travelling, given you need a separate card for each traveller (including children, who will pay adult rate) so for Luton airport especially, there are more likely groups travelling then individual business passengers travelling alone (I don't have the stats, but I bet it's way different to say London City airport).
 

Meerkat

Established Member
Joined
14 Jul 2018
Messages
9,276
Using contactless is also an issue for a family travelling, given you need a separate card for each traveller (including children, who will pay adult rate) so for Luton airport especially, there are more likely groups travelling then individual business passengers travelling alone (I don't have the stats, but I bet it's way different to say London City airport).
Does contactless prevent multiple taps (maybe to prevent accidental double tapping) or could you stand there tapping away and go through as last member of your group?
 

Joe Paxton

Established Member
Joined
12 Jan 2017
Messages
2,959
Does contactless prevent multiple taps (maybe to prevent accidental double tapping) or could you stand there tapping away and go through as last member of your group?

Unless contactless on Luton DART is implemented in a radically and confusingly different manner to everywhere else, then it's one card (and one tap) per passenger.
 

jon0844

Veteran Member
Joined
1 Feb 2009
Messages
31,002
Location
UK
Does contactless prevent multiple taps (maybe to prevent accidental double tapping) or could you stand there tapping away and go through as last member of your group?

It would surely have to be one tap, as otherwise people could get charged multiple times if they, say, tap again on a validator within a station - or aren't sure if they tapped first time and try again (say the gates are open and it's not clear it worked).
 

Watershed

Veteran Member
Associate Staff
Senior Fares Advisor
Joined
26 Sep 2020
Messages
16,824
Location
UK
Does contactless prevent multiple taps (maybe to prevent accidental double tapping) or could you stand there tapping away and go through as last member of your group?
You can tap as many times as you want, but you can still only use a particular Oyster or contactless card for one person. Children under a certain age travel free on some TfL and National Rail service (it varies by route and operator) but in that case they won't have a ticket at all.
 

spag23

On Moderation
Joined
4 Nov 2012
Messages
793
I've not seen it written down by the actual operator. But IF (as asked earlier in the thread) the national concessionary bus pass works on DART, holders should be careful not to pay the unnecessary extra to get to LUA, but book to LTN only.
 

spag23

On Moderation
Joined
4 Nov 2012
Messages
793
I was wary because ISTR there were earlier reports that said that just Luton pensioners could travel free. But yes, Luton Rising's own website now makes it clear that all concessionary passholders travel free.
 

Haywain

Veteran Member
Joined
3 Feb 2013
Messages
24,866
What four hours (I guess middle day?) do they plan to run starting on Friday please?
I believe that I've seen it as something like 13:00 to 17:00. The restricted hours operation will last for 3 weeks.
 

Bald Rick

Veteran Member
Joined
28 Sep 2010
Messages
35,982
slight change of tack, but very much on topic, but Luton have submitted their Application for a Development Consent Order to expand the airport. This includes a second terminal, and an extension of the DART to serve it.
 

Haywain

Veteran Member
Joined
3 Feb 2013
Messages
24,866
slight change of tack, but very much on topic, but Luton have submitted their Application for a Development Consent Order to expand the airport. This includes a second terminal, and an extension of the DART to serve it.
That will be very much a long term project. The planning process alone will take a long time as it is unlikely to get through without a public inquiry, given the number of Conservative MPs representing the neighbouring areas.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

---------------------------------------------
Edited Wednesday 8 March, 15:54, to add:


To the main thrust of the thread, I have just (minutes ago!) received an email from Luton Rising, as follows:
The success of previous trials has resulted in us being ready to open to passengers and move forward with soft launch in the coming days!

Sadly, this means we will not be progressing with any more trial dates. Although this may be disappointing to those who didn't take part, we will be opening our doors soon and hope to see you there!
 
Last edited:
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top