Fixing Thameslink

[Wolfie]

Are there any plans to replace the rolling stock on Thameslink? Used the service today for the first time and thought it was dirty, loud and quite a bumpy ride. Ran on time though and clearly a very frequent service.

No chance. Those trains, the Class 700s, are only seven years old..... Ask again around 2040 or so.....

 

[WizCastro197]

Are there any plans to replace the rolling stock on Thameslink? Used the service today for the first time and thought it was dirty, loud and quite a bumpy ride. Ran on time though and clearly a very frequent service.

1. That's just how it is, they are used intensively, and are only 7-8 years old!

2. (my bold) That's quite rare.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Are there any plans to replace the rolling stock on Thameslink? Used the service today for the first time and thought it was dirty, loud and quite a bumpy ride. Ran on time though and clearly a very frequent service.

Generally saloons are ok but unlike some operators Thameslink dont seem to have much in the way of roving stock cleaners so they do get full junk late in the evening. Also been in a few toilets recently that have been badly sprayed up not even graffiti which is new

 

[bramling]

Generally saloons are ok but unlike some operators Thameslink dont seem to have much in the way of roving stock cleaners so they do get full junk late in the evening. Also been in a few toilets recently that have been badly sprayed up not even graffiti which is new

Pretty much every class 700 toilet seems to be sprayed up, been going on for a few months, seemed to start towards the end of Covid. The 700/0s are particularly bad, but it’s not uncommon on the 700/1s as well.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Pretty much every class 700 toilet seems to be sprayed up, been going on for a few months, seemed to start towards the end of Covid. The 700/0s are particularly bad, but it’s not uncommon on the 700/1s as well.

My service is mainly 1's but a couple of 0's are diagrammed so maybe thats why ive got a better opinion.

 

[Sad Sprinter]

No. The current rolling stock will be in operation for the next 30 years.

What a shame. Awful trains.

 

[WizCastro197]

What a shame. Awful trains.

Each to their own, I guess. I find them practical, plenty of capacity and they do the job just fine.

 

[PGAT]

It feels like they aren’t quite suited for the long distance routes. They don’t have plug sockets, they don’t have the most comfortable seats and can only go as fast as 100mph which just reduces capacity on the 125mph ECML.

 

[JonathanH]

It feels like they aren’t quite suited for the long distance routes. They don’t have plug sockets, they don’t have the most comfortable seats and can only go as fast as 100mph which just reduces capacity on the 125mph ECML.

It is only between Huntingdon and Peterborough that speed could really be considered an issue. 17 miles at 100 mph rather than 125 mph costs about two minutes, twice an hour.

The interiors are well discussed, but are a necessity for getting large crowds into London from Stevenage, Croydon and St Albans into London. The fact that they run on longer distance journeys is operational convenience.

 

[Magdalia]

It is only between Huntingdon and Peterborough that speed could really be considered an issue. 17 miles at 100 mph rather than 125 mph costs about two minutes, twice an hour.

Actually only between Huntingdon and Holme. The 2 track section between Holme and Fletton is 100mph.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 4 Mar 2023 ==

The interiors are well discussed, but are a necessity for getting large crowds into London

Most of the class 700 design features are there (or not there) to minimise dwell times in the core.

 

[JonathanH]

Most of the class 700 design features are there (or not there) to minimise dwell times in the core.

Yes, and they do that very well / don't need fixing in that regard.

 

[CBlue]

What a shame. Awful trains.

It feels like they aren’t quite suited for the long distance routes. They don’t have plug sockets, they don’t have the most comfortable seats and can only go as fast as 100mph which just reduces capacity on the 125mph ECML.

Seats and plug sockets don't require replacement of rolling stock? I use the trains now and again and they're fine for the hour-or-so journies most people make...if anything, they're more comfortable than the 387s. Similar seats, but the 700s ride far, far better at speed.

 

[bramling]

Seats and plug sockets don't require replacement of rolling stock? I use the trains now and again and they're fine for the hour-or-so journies most people make...if anything, they're more comfortable than the 387s. Similar seats, but the 700s ride far, far better at speed.

Better ride than the 387s for sure (that’s not difficult!), but not as good as the 365s.

 

[Hadders]

I've noticed more graffitti on 700s recently, not just on the outside of the units and insode thr toilets but inside the train. Never saw this sort of thing on the 365s!

I'm a long term critic of the ironing board seats on the 700s but to be fair the trains are excellent at hoovering up passengers. Just last Sunday I boarded the 09:26 from Stevenage to Kings Cross, a 12-car 700 that was full and standing, with many Newcastle United supporters among the normal passengers travelling. Pre-12-car 700 introduction people would have been left behind but this isn't the case with the any longer.

Wednesday evening I took the 22:38 from Finsbury Park to Stevenage. A school boy error by me as I didn't realise Arsenal were playing that evening and this train was a perfect train for supporters heading home. A packed platform but we all got on the 8-car 700 with ease. Again this wouldn't have happened with the previous trains.

 

[A0]

I've noticed more graffitti on 700s recently, not just on the outside of the units and insode thr toilets but inside the train. Never saw this sort of thing on the 365s!

Probably gives you a clue as to where the graffiti "artists" are from and use the trains.

I'm a long term critic of the ironing board seats on the 700s but to be fair the trains are excellent at hoovering up passengers. Just last Sunday I boarded the 09:26 from Stevenage to Kings Cross, a 12-car 700 that was full and standing, with many Newcastle United supporters among the normal passengers travelling. Pre-12-car 700 introduction people would have been left behind but this isn't the case with the any longer.

Worse still used to be the 4 car units on weekend outer suburban services to/from Kings X. You'd be lucky if there were any available seats at Hitchin on a London bound service, let alone Welwyn GC or Hatfield.

Wednesday evening I took the 22:38 from Finsbury Park to Stevenage. A school boy error by me as I didn't realise Arsenal were playing that evening and this train was a perfect train for supporters heading home. A packed platform but we all got on the 8-car 700 with ease. Again this wouldn't have happened with the previous trains.

Quite. And I suspect the 707s help compared to the 313s.

 

[Bald Rick]

(my bold) That's quite rare.

How do you define ‘rare’? My Thameslink trains are pretty punctual, Its Been a few weeks since I was delayed by more than 5 minutes.

Oh, and the very latest stats show that for the last reporting period (the 4 weeks ending today), for all GTR trains, 70% of all station stops made were right time (ie on time to the minute). This is all staton stops, and not just the end of the journey. And for the avoidance of doubt, on time, and not one minute late or more.

What a shame. Awful trains.

Personal view obviously. In my opinion they are superb.

They don’t have plug sockets

Yes they do. Although why you’d need one I don’t know.

can only go as fast as 100mph which just reduces capacity on the 125mph ECML.

It doesn’t reduce ECML capacity.

 

[WizCastro197]

How do you define ‘rare’? My Thameslink trains are pretty punctual, Its Been a few weeks since I was delayed by more than 5 minutes.

Perhaps I should have been a little clearer, most Thameslink trains in my area, often arrive 5-10 minutes late, which isn't too bad, but in comparison to Southern most days, it doesn't strike me as the No.1 option to reach London.

 

[Bald Rick]

Perhaps I should have been a little clearer, most Thameslink trains in my area, often arrive 5-10 minutes late, which isn't too bad, but in comparison to Southern most days, it doesn't strike me as the No.1 option to reach London.

Let’s use some stats. Yesterday - the most recent full day available - there were 139 TL trains calling at Redhill (which I gather is your local TL station) between 0400 and midnight.

Of those:

76% (106) were on time (0-1 minute late, including early)
16% (22) were 1-4 minutes late
3% (4) were 5-10 minutes late
5% (7) were cancelled, of which 3 actually ran but didn’t serve Redhill.

So 76% arrived bang on time, and 92% arrived 4 minutes late or less.

This does not seem to me to meet the definition of ‘most Thameslink trains in my area often arrive 5-10 minutes late’.

 

[WizCastro197]

Let’s use some stats. Yesterday - the most recent full day available - there were 139 TL trains calling at Redhill (which I gather is your local TL station) between 0400 and midnight.

Of those:

76% (106) were on time (0-1 minute late, including early)
16% (22) were 1-4 minutes late
3% (4) were 5-10 minutes late
5% (7) were cancelled, of which 3 actually ran but didn’t serve Redhill.

So 76% arrived bang on time, and 92% arrived 4 minutes late or less.

This does not seem to me to meet the definition of ‘most Thameslink trains in my area often arrive 5-10 minutes late’.

Again I wasn’t clear, yes I agree most arrive at Redhill a few early but then start ticking up delays between Merstham and Coulsdon. When I said arrive, I had the core in mind, not Redhill. But I assume you are going to bring out more stats, just to prove me wrong?

 

[Minstral25]

How do you define ‘rare’? My Thameslink trains are pretty punctual, Its Been a few weeks since I was delayed by more than 5 minutes.

Oh, and the very latest stats show that for the last reporting period (the 4 weeks ending today), for all GTR trains, 70% of all station stops made were right time (ie on time to the minute). This is all staton stops, and not just the end of the journey. And for the avoidance of doubt, on time, and not one minute late or more.


Personal view obviously. In my opinion they are superb.

Yes they do. Although why you’d need one I don’t know.

Let’s use some stats. Yesterday - the most recent full day available - there were 139 TL trains calling at Redhill (which I gather is your local TL station) between 0400 and midnight.

Of those:

76% (106) were on time (0-1 minute late, including early)
16% (22) were 1-4 minutes late
3% (4) were 5-10 minutes late
5% (7) were cancelled, of which 3 actually ran but didn’t serve Redhill.

So 76% arrived bang on time, and 92% arrived 4 minutes late or less.

This does not seem to me to meet the definition of ‘most Thameslink trains in my area often arrive 5-10 minutes late’.

You picked a good day. Just did a recenttimetrains review of "on time" for Redhill to Blackfriars for last 4 weeks (as they are the services/journeys I use) and the average on time arrival is about 35% of trains, that's most running late in my book. (bit better coming back at around 45%).

Appreciate you probably have access to better numbers than RTT. To be honest those numbers follow my experience of using the services. They did get a lot better and were running a good service just before Covid, but last 6 months has been deteriorating badly from my perspective.

Also, 700s are great trains let down by appalling seating - need arm rests to separate your backside/shoulders form your neighbours and removal of 1/2 rows per cabin to give some leg room (Yes more passengers would have to stand in high Peak, but (at a guess) 95% of services are not even close to crush loaded).

 

[Mikey C]

Part of the reason for Thameslink is that while you can run more trains on the EMCL there was insufficient space at Kings Cross to turn then round. This problem is oovercome by sending some of the trains through the core to places like Horsham and Brighton.

We now have more trains on the ECML as a result (e.g. Stevenage has 4 fast trains an hour to London rather than 2).

What confuses me is why so FEW trains on the Great Northern side go through the core.

Why brand services "Thameslink", run the 700s, which for all their uncomfortable interiors are sophisticated trains designed to operate the high intensity services through the core, yet terminate them at Kings Cross?

 

[bramling]

What confuses me is why so FEW trains on the Great Northern side go through the core.

Why brand services "Thameslink", run the 700s, which for all their uncomfortable interiors are sophisticated trains designed to operate the high intensity services through the core, yet terminate them at Kings Cross?

The original plan was over ambitious. By the time this was realised the trains had already been ordered.

The Cambridge to King’s Cross stopping service is being re-branded to Great Northern from this May, and indeed will see significantly more 387 operation, though by contrast some of the peak fast Peterborough services will change to 700s.

 

[cle]

I wonder if the political fire from the Sutton Loop intervention has subsided enough to try it again. And send everything from the Denmark Hill side through, at all times - and 4tph Catford up to St Albans/Luton per current loopers.

That change, and Rainham back to South Eastern - would help simplify the network. The Rainham paths I know are problematic - maybe even just to South Croydon or Caterham would be doable. The popular option is to line them up for the Epsom semi-fast paths - not sure if that could work with some jiggering around. That way, they at least still reach Norwood Junction on the trunk route.

 

[Magdalia]

Why brand services "Thameslink", run the 700s, which for all their uncomfortable interiors are sophisticated trains designed to operate the high intensity services through the core, yet terminate them at Kings Cross?

The original intention was to run the Cambridge stoppers through the core to and from Maidstone.

But it was always an impractical proposal that betrayed a lack of understanding of ECML operation through the 2 track section at Welwyn. For resilience reasons it is absolutely essential that trains calling at Welwyn North do not go through the core.

The Cambridge to King’s Cross stopping service is being re-branded to Great Northern from this May, and indeed will see significantly more 387 operation

It has taken a long time but it does now seem that Cambridge-Maidstone is finally buried, and Cambridge-Kings Cross is going back to Great Northern. This is what politicians call a victory for common sense!

What confuses me is why so FEW trains on the Great Northern side go through the core.

But I have some sympathy with your view that too few trains to/from the GN run through the core. The way to rectify this, without reducing resilience on the 2 track section, is more trains starting/terminating at Welwyn Garden City. In particular the Welwyn Garden City-Sevenoaks service should run all day.

I wonder if the political fire from the Sutton Loop intervention has subsided enough to try it again.

That's a hornets' nest that I would not be poking.

Rainham back to South Eastern - would help simplify the network. The Rainham paths I know are problematic

Agree 100%. With HS1 and now Crossrail Rainham is all risk for no reward.

The popular option is to line them up for the Epsom semi-fast paths - not sure if that could work with some jiggering around.

The London Bridge-Epsom semi fasts are a post COVID innovation and I think there is potential for them to run through the core.

 

[A0]

But I have some sympathy with your view that too few trains to/from the GN run through the core. The way to rectify this, without reducing resilience on the 2 track section, is more trains starting/terminating at Welwyn Garden City. In particular the Welwyn Garden City-Sevenoaks service should run all day.

The challenge with that though is platforming at Welwyn Garden City - presumably these would need to be interworked with the Moorgate services - so that mean also using the east side bay (which I think is now P1 ?) at Welwyn GC - and the only way to access that is by crossing the fasts on the level.

You've then got a small matter that from Alexandra Palace to Finsbury Park you also have to consider the Hertford North - Moorgate services.

And I don't think just replacing the Welwyn GC - Moorgate services with Welwyn GC to Sevenoaks is a good idea before you suggest it. The Northern City offers some useful connectivity, notably onto the North London Line and a level cross platform interchange onto the Victoria at Highbury & Islington.

 

[Magdalia]

so that mean also using the east side bay (which I think is now P1 ?) at Welwyn GC - and the only way to access that is by crossing the fasts on the level.

Not correct. It is possible to shunt from the down side to platform 1 via the flyover. Some peak time Sevenoaks trains already do it, for example:

Realtime Trains | 5Y17 0751 Welwyn Garden City to Welwyn Garden City | 28/03/2023

Real-time train running information for 5Y17 0751 departure from Welwyn Garden City to Welwyn Garden City on 28/03/2023. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

And platform 1 is not a bay, it is a loop.

You've then got a small matter that from Alexandra Palace to Finsbury Park you also have to consider the Hertford North - Moorgate services.

For which there are 2 slow lines (though only one has platforms at Hornsey and Harringay).

And I don't think just replacing the Welwyn GC - Moorgate services with Welwyn GC to Sevenoaks is a good idea before you suggest it.

I haven't suggested it, and wasn't going to. From Welwyn Garden City off peak I would have every 30 minutes to Moorgate and every 30 minutes to Sevenoaks.

 

[Failed Unit]

The challenge with that though is platforming at Welwyn Garden City - presumably these would need to be interworked with the Moorgate services - so that mean also using the east side bay (which I think is now P1 ?) at Welwyn GC - and the only way to access that is by crossing the fasts on the level.

You've then got a small matter that from Alexandra Palace to Finsbury Park you also have to consider the Hertford North - Moorgate services.

And I don't think just replacing the Welwyn GC - Moorgate services with Welwyn GC to Sevenoaks is a good idea before you suggest it. The Northern City offers some useful connectivity, notably onto the North London Line and a level cross platform interchange onto the Victoria at Highbury & Islington.

It looks like the new timetable has got around this and removed the need to shunt.

Although it still may not be desirable

0740 Service arrives from Moorgate onto platform 3
0745 Service arrives from Sevenoaks onto platform 4. (then into sidings)
0752 Services arrives from Moorgate onto Platform 4
0755 Services departs to Moorgate from platform 3
0758 Service to Cambridge uses platform 3 (Ex London)
0802 Service to Sevenoaks services uses platform 3 (ex sidings)
0810 Service to Moorgate leaves platform 4

Repeat.
As you can see no wriggle room if things go wrong, not sure if using the carriage sidings is more reliable then shutting to platform 1. I guess it is at you are not blocking as many lines. Extra turn around time on the Moorgates will help. So it is possible to work with the platforms at WGC - but we will see if the resilience works. It is already like a house of cards.

I have noticed that the Thameslink services seem to be popular in their own right. At places like New Barnet, significant numbers of people are waiting for the Moorgate to clear the platform waiting for the Thameslink 3 minutes afterwards.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 28 Mar 2023 ==

I haven't suggested it, and wasn't going to. From Welwyn Garden City off peak I would have every 30 minutes to Moorgate and every 30 minutes to Sevenoaks.

That may be a good idea, the Moorgate branch at the moment is very poorly served off-peak as the timetable is really thinned out from 2x 15 minute services. (Hertford and Welwyn) - It would be interesting to know if people they restored Hertford North to every 15 mins and then alternated Welwyn stopping into the core / Moorgate to restore a service every 15 minutes to places in the TFL area if that would be acceptable or if they would prefer the more frequent stopping service to return into Moorgate.

 

[A0]

And platform 1 is not a bay, it is a loop.

Correct - was rushing when I typed. Point still stands, to access P1 for a terminating train / starting from WGC train means crossing the fasts though.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 28 Mar 2023 ==

It looks like the new timetable has got around this and removed the need to shunt.

Although it still may not be desirable

0740 Service arrives from Moorgate onto platform 3
0745 Service arrives from Sevenoaks onto platform 4. (then into sidings)
0752 Services arrives from Moorgate onto Platform 4
0755 Services departs to Moorgate from platform 3
0758 Service to Cambridge uses platform 3 (Ex London)
0802 Service to Sevenoaks services uses platform 3 (ex sidings)
0810 Service to Moorgate leaves platform 4

Repeat.
As you can see no wriggle room if things go wrong, not sure if using the carriage sidings is more reliable then shutting to platform 1. I guess it is at you are not blocking as many lines. Extra turn around time on the Moorgates will help. So it is possible to work with the platforms at WGC - but we will see if the resilience works. It is already like a house of cards.

No wriggle room at all - and if it blocks P3 delaying the northbound Cambridge service, that will cause problems about 1 mile up the line.....

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 28 Mar 2023 ==

That may be a good idea, the Moorgate branch at the moment is very poorly served off-peak as the timetable is really thinned out from 2x 15 minute services. (Hertford and Welwyn) - It would be interesting to know if people they restored Hertford North to every 15 mins and then alternated Welwyn stopping into the core / Moorgate to restore a service every 15 minutes to places in the TFL area if that would be acceptable or if they would prefer the more frequent stopping service to return into Moorgate.

The inners were every 30 mins from both Welwyn GC and Hertford for many years - certainly all through the 80s and 90s they were every 30 mins. So whilst it's a drop from where they were pre-Covid, I'm not sure they are so busy that upping them to every 15 mins is really viable.

 

[Magdalia]

Point still stands, to access P1 for a terminating train / starting from WGC train means crossing the fasts though.

But not on the level, it can be done by the flyover.

 

[Failed Unit]

Correct - was rushing when I typed. Point still stands, to access P1 for a terminating train / starting from WGC train means crossing the fasts though.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 28 Mar 2023 ==



No wriggle room at all - and if it blocks P3 delaying the northbound Cambridge service, that will cause problems about 1 mile up the line.....

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 28 Mar 2023 ==



The inners were every 30 mins from both Welwyn GC and Hertford for many years - certainly all through the 80s and 90s they were every 30 mins. So whilst it's a drop from where they were pre-Covid, I'm not sure they are so busy that upping them to every 15 mins is really viable.

As a user, I already regularly see the snow ball impacts of even a 2 minute delay at Welwyn Garden City (on any service) as these rapidly snowball.

I do remember a period where the Welwyn Garden City / Hertford services were every 20 minutes, providing a service from Alexandra Palace to Moorgate every 10 minutes. That worked but most trains were 3 coaches. The 2018 failed timetable moved them for a short period to every 15 minutes on both routes. Looking at the May timetable they have fixed the timetable and it is a real 15 minutes service from Moorgate - Alexandra Palace (I think it was 10 / 20 / 10 / 20 previously). I agree this should be satisfactory with the current loadings.