CAF class 197 Civity for TfW: News and updates on introduction.

[Armchair Bob]

I see that 197017 made it's debut on the Ffestiniog branch on Thursday and was on MIA on Friday. That makes 15 units now used in service.

 

[SuperLuke2334]

I see that 197017 made it's debut on the Ffestiniog branch on Thursday and was on MIA on Friday. That makes 15 units now used in service.

It's been in service since last Sunday 1203 Chester to Warrington BQ.

 

[cambsy]

Just one unit out today(Sat4th March), 197015 doing the Liverpool to Chester shuttles, was my first ride on 197, found to be nice units and ride ok, though thing which stood out for me was the seat Moquette which is same as Greater Anglia 745 and 755 Flirts, so any reason why same Moquette as Greater Anglia?.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

The 175s now appear to be re entering standard service saw two in Pembrokeshire in under an hour

As I read the TfW statement, only some of the 175s were withdrawn for inspection.
Presumably they will be checked when they get back to Chester.
Several 175s were out today through Chester, according to RTT

 

[Rhydgaled]

Having been on a 2 carriage 197 im wondering how the 3 car 197s will be layed out. Will it be like the 2 and 3 car 175s where the front and back carriage of a 3 car will be identical to the 2 car trains and the middle carriage will mostly just be seats and tables?

Yes and no, at least per the original plans (there are some question marks regarding the units which were planned to have first class). On the original plans, the front and rear coaches are identical for 2-car and 3-car class 197s* but the middle coach isn't just seats and tables.

* except the ones with first class

Also on the subject of tables, i counted 10 sets of tables on the 2 car. 6 sets in one carriage and 4 sets in the carriage with the catering area and toilet. In a 3 car will there be more tables in the middle carriage or just another 6 sets? It will be interesting to see how much is taken up with the first class section too. I assume the carriage with the toilet and the catering area will have first class at the end of that carriage which pretty much wipes out an entire carriage on a 3 car set for first class/catering and the toilet and disabled seating area.

Just another six bay tables in the middle coach, one of which is aligned for maximum pillar-block with a window pillar in the centre of the bay. First class was to be about half of the coach with no toilet was to be a first class section with 2+1 seating. Strange that it was at the opposite end from the catering carriage but that's how it was. Not sure if the plans for the first class section remain valid following the suggestion that it will now be an upgrade-on-the-day 'business zone' type thing but here are the original seat plans:

 

[XAM2175]

Just another six bay tables in the middle coach, one of which is aligned for maximum pillar-block with a window pillar in the centre of the bay. First class was to be about half of the coach with no toilet was to be a first class section with 2+1 seating. ...

Are you able to say where you got that diagram?

 

[krus_aragon]

Are you able to say where you got that diagram?

It's a diagram that was in the public domain around the letting of the original TfW franchise, copies have been posted here previously. I can't recall exactly what document it came from, though.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The window alignment in 1st makes me laugh, particularly as if you partly reversed it (luggage rack next to cab, then single seat, then bay) it would be close to fully aligned. Plus you'd get one more seat in as you'd not need the single seats to be 1+1, they could be 2+1.

 

[craigybagel]

The window alignment in 1st makes me laugh, particularly as if you partly reversed it (luggage rack next to cab, then single seat, then bay) it would be close to fully aligned. Plus you'd get one more seat in as you'd not need the single seats to be 1+1, they could be 2+1.

All of the luggage racks are either next to external doors or one seperated from them by open spaces like the bike area. If you put the rack by the cab people would have to maneuver their luggage down the aisle. There's also the risk that luggage in that area would block access to the drivers cab. It's not a good place to put the rack.

 

[Bletchleyite]

All of the luggage racks are either next to external doors or one seperated from them by open spaces like the bike area. If you put the rack by the cab people would have to maneuver their luggage down the aisle.

Comparative upside: makes it less likely to be nicked.

There's also the risk that luggage in that area would block access to the drivers cab.

Most InterCity type trains have luggage storage at the ends of the vehicle where it could technically block access to the vestibule. I don't think I've ever seen it do so.

It's not a good place to put the rack.

Totally disagree.

But if you must, it'd also be possible to reverse the layout entirely, making a table for three, a table for two and a row of 2+1 airline seats, all fully window aligned. And before you say that'd block the door, it wouldn't, because that's exactly (in 2+2 form) what the Northern 195 end sections are laid out as.

It just shows a lack of thought, which I can understand for Standard but is really not acceptable for a premium class of service.

 

[craigybagel]

Comparative upside: makes it less likely to be nicked.

True

Most InterCity type trains have luggage storage at the ends of the vehicle where it could technically block access to the vestibule. I don't think I've ever seen it do so.

Blocking a cab is more of a risk than blocking a vestibule. Is there any train in service today with the luggage rack directly adjacent to the cab door?

What often happens is that when the luggage rack fills, people put their luggage on the floor next to the rack. Obviously next to the cab this would be a problem. In an ideal world there would be more luggage racks I admit, but that's a seperate issue.

Totally disagree.

But if you must, it'd also be possible to reverse the layout entirely, making a table for three, a table for two and a row of 2+1 airline seats, all fully window aligned. And before you say that'd block the door, it wouldn't, because that's exactly (in 2+2 form) what the Northern 195 end sections are laid out as.

I'm aware of this, I've used Northerns units - however.....

It just shows a lack of thought, which I can understand for Standard but is really not acceptable for a premium class of service.

.....maybe there's a perfectly rational design reason behind it. The cab door is a different design to that used on the Northern units - it may well be that it precludes the offset seating pattern that Northern use. Also, Northerns seats are presumably narrower than the 1st class seats TfW are using.

I reckon that if you swapped the layout round as you suggest, you'd only have space for a 2 person table on either side by the cab, and then a 2x1 airline row by the luggage rack, giving you one less seat than what is currently proposed.

At the end of the day, neither of us are party to the planning decisions that were made, so I think it's unfair to criticise anyone for a lack of thought.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Replied in this thread so the discussion can continue without being OT:

CAF Civity for TfW design issues and solutions

It's only in the last two or three years that all of a sudden the powers that be have decided that diesel is evil. The reality is that rail transport only contributes a tiny fraction of carbon emissions, and all this self-flaggelation from within the industry and from public transport advocates...

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[Jez]

Yes and no, at least per the original plans (there are some question marks regarding the units which were planned to have first class). On the original plans, the front and rear coaches are identical for 2-car and 3-car class 197s* but the middle coach isn't just seats and tables.

* except the ones with first class


Just another six bay tables in the middle coach, one of which is aligned for maximum pillar-block with a window pillar in the centre of the bay. First class was to be about half of the coach with no toilet was to be a first class section with 2+1 seating. Strange that it was at the opposite end from the catering carriage but that's how it was. Not sure if the plans for the first class section remain valid following the suggestion that it will now be an upgrade-on-the-day 'business zone' type thing but here are the original seat plans:

View attachment 130248

Thanks for posting these. It would make more sense to have first class at the very end of the carriage, the other side of the doors by the catering area.

Also regarding luggage racks i only noticed two (one in each carriage) on the two carriage train. Far less than the 175s. Overall i preffered the 197 to the 175s but there are a few things like the luggage racks and extra toilets which are better on a 175.

Overall i think the 197s are a big improvement to customer experience however.

 

[Peter Sarf]

The window alignment in 1st makes me laugh, particularly as if you partly reversed it (luggage rack next to cab, then single seat, then bay) it would be close to fully aligned. Plus you'd get one more seat in as you'd not need the single seats to be 1+1, they could be 2+1.

I am rather struck with the fact that there is as much luggage rack provision within the first class area occupying half a coach as there is for the other 2 1/2 coaches of non-1st class. Do first class passengers have 4 to 5 times more luggage ?.

I notice the screen (if there is one) between 2nd class and 1st is not aligned with a window pillar- looks a messy.

Probably not a big issue as I wonder how long does first class have left.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Probably not a big issue as I wonder how long does first class have left.

Current talk is that it'll be an upgrade-on-the-day "business zone" type arrangement, but given the (lack of) success of that I'm inclined to think there's a fair chance all units will just end up as Standard only anyway. Have any been built with 1st yet?

 

[SuperLuke2334]

Current talk is that it'll be an upgrade-on-the-day "business zone" type arrangement, but given the (lack of) success of that I'm inclined to think there's a fair chance all units will just end up as Standard only anyway. Have any been built with 1st yet?

It was meant to be the last 14? units of the /1 subclass, and currently only 113 has been delivered by road to Donnington.

 

[IslandLine101]

Earlier posts saying that 197s are not certified for passenger carrying duties to Crewe and Holyhead. Was wondering if people knew what further checks had to be undertaken before this is signed off? To me I’m slightly confused as I would have thought that NR clearance and crew training would be the only two operational barriers to service? Cheers

 

[Envoy]

Current talk is that it'll be an upgrade-on-the-day "business zone" type arrangement, but given the (lack of) success of that I'm inclined to think there's a fair chance all units will just end up as Standard only anyway. Have any been built with 1st yet?

Surely they will keep 1st Class/Business Class as members of the Welsh Government (on expenses) will not want to travel with the poor people?

 

[Peter Sarf]

Surely they will keep 1st Class/Business Class as members of the Welsh Government (on expenses) will not want to travel with the poor people?

Oh don't be silly - they would be travelling in an executive jet .

 

[Bletchleyite]

Surely they will keep 1st Class/Business Class as members of the Welsh Government (on expenses) will not want to travel with the poor people?

They'll be on the Mk4 sets. The 197 first was born back when there weren't any Mk4s going to operate to Manchester.

 

[SuperLuke2334]

Earlier posts saying that 197s are not certified for passenger carrying duties to Crewe and Holyhead. Was wondering if people knew what further checks had to be undertaken before this is signed off? To me I’m slightly confused as I would have thought that NR clearance and crew training would be the only two operational barriers to service? Cheers

Holyhead is now signed off with service starting Monday, however I don't know what prevents them. Possibly enough crew trained to reliably run the service?

 

[Dai Corner]

Holyhead is now signed off with service starting Monday, however I don't know what prevents them. Possibly enough crew trained to reliably run the service?

Presumably the platform-train interface, stopping places, selective door operation, operation at short platforms and things like that.

 

[Express380]

Holyhead is now signed off with service starting Monday, however I don't know what prevents them. Possibly enough crew trained to reliably run the service?

Presumably this will be the first working spends the day between Manchester Holyhead and Llandudno then heads to Crewe in the evening: https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:L07163/2023-03-06/detailed

EDIT: That working does join to a 175 at Crewe so probably wont be that unless a swap will happen

 

[SuperLuke2334]

Presumably this will be the first working spends the day between Manchester Holyhead and Llandudno then heads to Crewe in the evening: https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:L07163/2023-03-06/detailed

EDIT: That working does join to a 175 at Crewe so probably wont be that unless a swap will happen

It may work to Chester but as far as I know Crewe isn't signed off for service yet.

 

[Rhydgaled]

Are you able to say where you got that diagram?

That specific image I think is a screenshot I took myself of a PDF I received by e-mail. That e-mail was a long while ago and I can't remember for sure who it was from, but it would probably be one of the rail user/lobby groups who in turn had received it from TfW. I think prior to that I had a low-res jpg/png version via one of the other user groups, which was clearly the same layout but too low-res to read the measurements.

Current talk is that it'll be an upgrade-on-the-day "business zone" type arrangement, but given the (lack of) success of that I'm inclined to think there's a fair chance all units will just end up as Standard only anyway. Have any been built with 1st yet?

The "business zone" announcement made me think that they had changed the spec of the planned first class area and it would now be more-similar to standard but I guess that's not confirmed?

It was meant to be the last 14? units of the /1 subclass, and currently only 113 has been delivered by road to Donnington.

Originally, it was to be 14 units with a lease start date of 31/12/2024. Prior to that date the 14 units were to be delivered either with "Decommissioned First class" (which I think just means with first class declassified) or as a mix of "Decommissioned First class" and "First class ready" units (I assume similar to the standard class interior but with slight differences to allow it to be ripped out easier and replaced with the first class interior). If that plan still stands, it's possible that 197113 just has a "First class ready" interior but we won't know for sure unless somebody gets in look inside it or has some insider knowledge.

 

[XAM2175]

That specific image I think is a screenshot I took myself of a PDF I received by e-mail. That e-mail was a long while ago and I can't remember for sure who it was from, but it would probably be one of the rail user/lobby groups who in turn had received it from TfW. I think prior to that I had a low-res jpg/png version via one of the other user groups, which was clearly the same layout but too low-res to read the measurements.

No worries, cheers.

 

[6Gtraincrew]

Page 43/44/45 in this document also shows the layouts of two car, three car and three car with first class

 

[Envoy]

I can’t see 2 coach 197’s every 2 hours being adequate for Cardiff to Liverpool services. I expect that once this service starts running, that will attract a lot of people from the Bristol area as long as the change at Newport time is sensible. So, with the substantial populations at either end plus people on The Marches, a 2 car until will surely be rammed?

 

[Phil from Mon]

Surely they will keep 1st Class/Business Class as members of the Welsh Government (on expenses) will not want to travel with the poor people?

Whenever I have travelled on anything that involves claiming costs from WG, or any other public or third sector organisation, it has been made very clear that you are expected to get the cheapest possible ticket, ideally an advance.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Page 43/44/45 in this document also shows the layouts of two car, three car and three car with first class

Though they seem to be out of date, not including the bike space for instance.