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Last HST in normal revenue service.

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Chester1

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I absolutely can. They play hardball against drivers at ScotRail at their peril. What will happen is that through the LLC they will signal that they not be working them from 12th August next year and if any action gets taken against any driver refusing to work them, a ballot for strike action will take place.

They’ve already refused to drive class 153 units from the small cabs stating that they’re unsafe. Whilst these are only 5 units which constitute a micro fleet here, they are quite clear that they will stick to their position when it’s based on safety. There’s not much ScotRail can do about it, and I’m shocked they haven’t started putting plans in place to avert this.

I am guessing that Scottish Government think that safety concerns will disappear if drivers are offered enough money.

Personally I will be mildly amused by the SNP having to deal with 25 intercity trains being blacklisted but I would be hugely surprised if that happened.
 
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hexagon789

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GC also ex-3A! Arriva converted some 3B FOs to TSOs. Maybe them you’re thinking of?
Must be, I could've sworn some 3Bs were altered to HST trailers for someone - seemingly not.

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Funny how most 153 drivers I've spoken to prefer the small cab. The railway can be a bizarre place sometimes.
Iirc while the general dimensions are smaller, the legroom is better?

Something like that.
 

irish_rail

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Funny how most 153 drivers I've spoken to prefer the small cab. The railway can be a bizarre place sometimes.
Indeed. Used to sign em and the small cab was far preferable to anyone not morbidly obese. Especially for taller drivers. Seems a bit of an Aslef own goal there, an d same with the HSTs. As a driver, give me a HST cab over almost anything else any day. I do wonder if some of these union representatives actually drive the traction they blacklist.....
 

Chester1

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What are ASLEFs concerns with HSTs? Would changing the sets to loco hauled Mark III sets satisify them? Aquiring 50 spare diesel locomotives might be a challenge but its possible. It would mean the end to HSTs in passenger service of course!
 

Mat17

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Will they make 50 years? I understand they are a bit like 'Triggers broom' so not every bit is coming up to 50 years old.

Personally I will be sad to see them go, they are still far more comfortable than a lot of stuff that has replaced them, but I realise that everything reaches the end of it life and that day is coming for HSTs

Agree, but as much as I enjoyed the old 125s, they are a sad reflection of what was.

They lost most of their charm, or at least their persona, when they had the Paxman Valentas taken away - yes modernisation etc. I understood the reasons why, but it's like taking out a Porsche engine and replacing it with a Vauxhall. It's just not the same.

Then they took the slamdoors off... The new sliding doors make them look less aerodynamic.

They still have the shape at the power-car end though, and that's about all that's left of the iconic design.

Retirement beckons.
 

anthony263

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Rumours flying around on Facebook that crosscountry are going to announce today they intend to withdraw their hst fleet this year.

Could just be rumours but might be something to keep a eye out for
 

swt_passenger

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Rumours flying around on Facebook that crosscountry are going to announce today they intend to withdraw their hst fleet this year.

Could just be rumours but might be something to keep a eye out for
Doesn’t come as a surprise though, it’s been considered highly likely for some time, as discussed in a number of other threads.
 

4-SUB 4732

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Cross Country HSTs are on the way out, probably December 2023. This is quite dependent on decisions based on 221s, not least because one of the ones that might have been allocated to them is a mess.

GWR HSTs as discussed will be gone for December 2023.

ScotRail are unlikely to go beyond 2027, due to a number of factors.

Where the remaining 221s and the fleet of 222s go is currently in a giant toss-up. I was at Tyseley yesterday and interacting with folk dealing with XC 170s, there's a lot possibly to come on those too.
 

4-SUB 4732

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Now confirmed that Cross Country HSTs are gone in October, and that from May there will be more Manchester - Bristol and Newcastle - Reading services brought in. No units are being leased to allow capacity to remain high.
 

greyman42

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Now confirmed that Cross Country HSTs are gone in October, and that from May there will be more Manchester - Bristol and Newcastle - Reading services brought in. No units are being leased to allow capacity to remain high.
They should arrange an Aberdeen to Penzance farewell tour!
 

D365

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Cross Country HSTs are on the way out, probably December 2023. This is quite dependent on decisions based on 221s, not least because one of the ones that might have been allocated to them is a mess.
Ex-Avanti 221s?
 

4-SUB 4732

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Ex-Avanti 221s?
Yes. Two of them are now allocated to EMR to try to stave off any issues associated with 180s going in May. Not sure how many more are going to be freed up, have their tilt taken off / decommissioned and made ready for XC. If they have a Shop, and XC don't use them, one assumes they would even need captive diagrams to take into account specific seat layout.
 

JonathanH

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Yes. Two of them are now allocated to EMR to try to stave off any issues associated with 180s going in May. Not sure how many more are going to be freed up, have their tilt taken off / decommissioned and made ready for XC. If they have a Shop, and XC don't use them, one assumes they would even need captive diagrams to take into account specific seat layout.
If XC are being asked to make savings by cutting HSTs, why would EMR be taking on additional stock? What are the 'issues associated with 180s going' that don't have equivalents on XC?
 

Trainbike46

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Yes. Two of them are now allocated to EMR to try to stave off any issues associated with 180s going in May. Not sure how many more are going to be freed up, have their tilt taken off / decommissioned and made ready for XC. If they have a Shop, and XC don't use them, one assumes they would even need captive diagrams to take into account specific seat layout.
I know some people rumoured this, but you make it sound like this is a firm decision. Do you have either inside knowledge or a public source confirming this?

If a public source and you could link to it that would be good.
 

4-SUB 4732

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If XC are being asked to make savings by cutting HSTs, why would EMR be taking on additional stock? What are the 'issues associated with 180s going' that don't have equivalents on XC?

I'm going to come out with a theory that won't be popular: politics. Look at the EMR route, it runs into London, acts as commuter a lot, and runs through stacks of Conservative seats. A loss of services, which was required if 180s went without any form of contingency, and a loss of capacity would be unacceptable.

Yet, go to Cross Country and it's not London-centric, and the restoration of frequency is probably enough of a net political gain where needed. In the areas such as West Yorkshire, Tyneside, central Birmingham and Bristol, they just won't care for it. The Treasury will probably be getting direction to deliberately cut or trim service to the seat.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

I know some people rumoured this, but you make it sound like this is a firm decision. Do you have either inside knowledge or a public source confirming this?

If a public source and you could link to it that would be good.
I think asking for a source, especially public, is a bit much. Unless someone at EMR wants to become the next Isabel Oakeshott, which I doubt.
 

irish_rail

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Now confirmed that Cross Country HSTs are gone in October, and that from May there will be more Manchester - Bristol and Newcastle - Reading services brought in. No units are being leased to allow capacity to remain high.
This really frustrates me, as Bristol is not much good for connectivity to the greater south west. Taunton would allow changes onto GWR intercity trains on to Plymouth and Cornwall, yet Bristol still requires using a stopper to head south. Taunton would be far more sensible although I guess would require an additional unit.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

I'm going to come out with a theory that won't be popular: politics. Look at the EMR route, it runs into London, acts as commuter a lot, and runs through stacks of Conservative seats. A loss of services, which was required if 180s went without any form of contingency, and a loss of capacity would be unacceptable.

Yet, go to Cross Country and it's not London-centric, and the restoration of frequency is probably enough of a net political gain where needed. In the areas such as West Yorkshire, Tyneside, central Birmingham and Bristol, they just won't care for it. The Treasury will probably be getting direction to deliberately cut or trim service to the seat.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==


I think asking for a source, especially public, is a bit much. Unless someone at EMR wants to become the next Isabel Oakeshott, which I doubt.
Pretty sure you are right. The sooner we can have an election to get these Tory cowboys gone the better!
 

4-SUB 4732

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This really frustrates me, as Bristol is not much good for connectivity to the greater south west. Taunton would allow changes onto GWR intercity trains on to Plymouth and Cornwall, yet Bristol still requires using a stopper to head south. Taunton would be far more sensible although I guess would require an additional unit.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==


Pretty sure you are right. The sooner we can have an election to get these Tory cowboys gone the better!
An ideal world would mean you had a half-hourly Exeter to Birmingham, with the hourly Plymouth. I suppose resourcing and the government's marvellous work on "Trains have nobody using them" puts paid to that.
 

Trainbike46

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I'm going to come out with a theory that won't be popular: politics. Look at the EMR route, it runs into London, acts as commuter a lot, and runs through stacks of Conservative seats. A loss of services, which was required if 180s went without any form of contingency, and a loss of capacity would be unacceptable.

Yet, go to Cross Country and it's not London-centric, and the restoration of frequency is probably enough of a net political gain where needed. In the areas such as West Yorkshire, Tyneside, central Birmingham and Bristol, they just won't care for it. The Treasury will probably be getting direction to deliberately cut or trim service to the seat.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==


I think asking for a source, especially public, is a bit much. Unless someone at EMR wants to become the next Isabel Oakeshott, which I doubt.

Sorry if I was unclear, what I meant was:

If there is a public source (an article or something) that I've missed, a link would be good.

If you have inside knowledge, just say that and I'll take your word for it. At times it can be hard on this forum who has knowledge on what is actually happening, and who is repeating a rumour that for some reason isn't up to date or was never true to begin with, or who is saying something that they hope will be happening. I was hoping to find out how much weight to give to your post

I'm definitely not expecting anyone to risk their job, so if revealing more would do that for you (or your source) obviously don't do that!
 

irish_rail

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An ideal world would mean you had a half-hourly Exeter to Birmingham, with the hourly Plymouth. I suppose resourcing and the government's marvellous work on "Trains have nobody using them" puts paid to that.
Indeed. Xc services are rammed between at least Plymouth and Birmingham. The Gov need to stop spinning this yarn that no one is travelling and just be honest that its first class and season tickets that are reduced (neither of which are massively affected on XC yet it seems XC will be taking the blow).
 

Mikey C

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I'm going to come out with a theory that won't be popular: politics. Look at the EMR route, it runs into London, acts as commuter a lot, and runs through stacks of Conservative seats. A loss of services, which was required if 180s went without any form of contingency, and a loss of capacity would be unacceptable.

Yet, go to Cross Country and it's not London-centric, and the restoration of frequency is probably enough of a net political gain where needed. In the areas such as West Yorkshire, Tyneside, central Birmingham and Bristol, they just won't care for it. The Treasury will probably be getting direction to deliberately cut or trim service to the seat.
Politically that makes no sense, when the Conservatives are defending lots of "red wall" seats won at the last election. Why would they want to support routes between the East Midlands and North to London, but not those across the country from those areas to the Midlands and Southwest?
 

DanNCL

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Politically that makes no sense, when the Conservatives are defending lots of "red wall" seats won at the last election. Why would they want to support routes between the East Midlands and North to London, but not those across the country from those areas to the Midlands and Southwest?
The Tories have pretty much accepted that the red wall seats are a lost cause for them. The 'blue wall' is at risk, that's where the Tories will be concentrating their efforts. In other words, trying to make it a 1997 style defeat for them at the next election rather than a Lib Dem 2015 style near total elimination from parliament.
 

4-SUB 4732

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Politically that makes no sense, when the Conservatives are defending lots of "red wall" seats won at the last election. Why would they want to support routes between the East Midlands and North to London, but not those across the country from those areas to the Midlands and Southwest?
Not entirely. They aren’t likely to be defending anything in that respect - whereas the seats on the way into London like Wellingborough are the only ones they can probably consider safe.
 

RobShipway

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Now confirmed that Cross Country HSTs are gone in October, and that from May there will be more Manchester - Bristol and Newcastle - Reading services brought in. No units are being leased to allow capacity to remain high.
I cannot see the sense in cutting the Plymouth to Aberdeen services, even if the HST's are gone in October. Surely, if XC are getting the Advanti class 221 units as everyone suspects, then they could use either two of those paired or 221+220 at least once a day in each direction?
 

JonathanH

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Surely, if XC are getting the Advanti class 221 units as everyone suspects
There has been no announcement or indication that XC are getting any additional units.

I cannot see the sense in cutting the Plymouth to Aberdeen services
The sense is that XC don't need to run a train which leaves Edinburgh for Aberdeen in amongst a regular service provided by Scotrail. In any case, it has already been cut.

There is still a southbound morning XC service from Aberdeen, and it is currently still showing as working after the May timetable change.
 
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4-SUB 4732

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I cannot see the sense in cutting the Plymouth to Aberdeen services, even if the HST's are gone in October. Surely, if XC are getting the Advanti class 221 units as everyone suspects, then they could use either two of those paired or 221+220 at least once a day in each direction?
Well, if we assume LNER has too many units, and XC doesn’t have enough, you could make the case for Newquay, Penzance, Aberdeen and Glasgow being chopped from the network. Ask for LNER to make up a small amount of the shortfall, perhaps. That’s about all I can think at this stage.
 

RobShipway

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Well, if we assume LNER has too many units, and XC doesn’t have enough, you could make the case for Newquay, Penzance, Aberdeen and Glasgow being chopped from the network. Ask for LNER to make up a small amount of the shortfall, perhaps. That’s about all I can think at this stage.
Problem is, what happens if LNER needs those units at a later date? Although, it would make sense for some of the LNER class 800 units to move to XC. But I suspect that it is the class 801 that LNER has too many?

If it is the class 801 then maybe they could be used on Birmingahm International - Manchester Piccadilly Services. Then just have the services from Bournemouth/Reading running to Birmingham International as four car class 220 or class 221 units. One service every couple of hours from either Bournemouth or Reading could go forward on to Manchester Piccadilly

The currently paired units on the Bournemouth/Reading routes could be doubled up to do the services from Penzance/Plymouth to Edingburgh. Yes, I know that it means that any XC passengers from Bournemouth/Reading wanting to travel to Edingburgh would either have to change twice or change on to any available Advanti West Coast service.

In the future once HS2 has been built, there hopefully would be more capacity at Birmingham New Street, to possibly terminate or start more services for XC.

If in years to come history repeats itself, you will be having the Class 8xxx trains moving to the likes of XC.
 

sprinterguy

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Problem is, what happens if LNER needs those units at a later date? Although, it would make sense for some of the LNER class 800 units to move to XC. But I suspect that it is the class 801 that LNER has too many?
I don't think the suggestion was that any LNER 800s should move to XC, but that LNER should provide the services to Glasgow and Aberdeen *beyond Edinburgh* instead of XC.
 
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