Can folding cycles ever be restricted?

[willD]

I was recently reading about the Dunwich Dynamo event, which happens every year in May. Previously, the large number of cyclists seeking to use Greater Anglia services appears to have caused problems, so for the three days around the event, Greater Anglia imposes some somewhat draconian restrictions on carrying bikes.

They note that this includes all bike parts, and folding bikes. No doubt this was because someone previously tried to get around the restrictions by taking a wheel off and calling it "bike parts" or a "folding bike".

The contract says that

"The Operator shall permit the carriage of folding cycles on all Passenger Services and nonfolding cycles wherever practicable."

Which sort of suggests that folding cycles can not be subject to any restriction ("wherever practicable" only reads to apply to the "nonfolding" cycles).

It does seem to raise the question... what if someone is a genuine cycle commuter with, for example, a Brompton or such, who needs to use the service on that day to get to work? Would denying carriage of their cycle not be breaching the contract? When it says "all bikes", does this include adapted cycles and cycles used as mobility aids? I can understand the annoyance that accommodating so many cyclists must cause, but aren't these restrictions a little excessive? It seems they go a little bit beyond what the contract permits them to do.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Stick your Brompton in a bag then it's luggage.

 

[CyrusWuff]

Conditions 22.4 and 23.1 of the National Rail Conditions of Travel may override that:

22.4 Fully folding cycles may be treated as luggage as shown in Condition 23 below.

23.1 You may take up to three items of luggage into the passenger accommodation of a train unless:

23.1.2 there is not enough room for it;

23.1.3 your luggage would obstruct doorways, gangways or corridors;

23.1.5 your luggage is not carried or packaged in a suitable manner;

23.1.7 a Train Company has set out any special conditions relating to the carrying of luggage on their own train services. In such cases these conditions will be made available when buying your Ticket in advance and will be shown on the Train Company’s website.

 

[43066]

Stick your Brompton in a bag then it's luggage.

Or just do as advised?

This is clearly in relation to a specific local event which the TOC are in a position to know will cause issues, based on past events. It’s being made clear well in advance.

Conditions 22.4 and 23.1 of the National Rail Conditions of Travel may override that.

Indeed.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 2 Mar 2023 ==

It does seem to raise the question... what if someone is a genuine cycle commuter with, for example, a Brompton or such, who needs to use the service on that day to get to work?

I suppose it’s a bit like how “dry” trains can be declared for specific events, and if you just so happen to be travelling on that train for other purposes you’ll be affected.

 

[AM9]

This is clearly in relation to a specific local event which the TOC are in a position to know will cause issues, based on past events. It’s being made clear well in advance.
I suppose it’s a bit like how “dry” trains can be declared for specific events, and if you just so happen to be travelling on that train for other purposes you’ll be affected.

In that event, any refusal to accept travel with such 'luggage' on a through ticket bought at another TOC's station where it is unlikely that prior notice would be given would be a breach of contract according to NRCoT requirements.

 

[telstarbox]

The Dunwich Dynamo has got a lot bigger since it started in the 1990s - it was into the thousands before COVID-19. Even a small proportion of riders turning up at Darsham, which is the nearest station to Dunwich, would overload the train. As an unticketed event there's no way for GA to know how many people might turn up. Before COVID they did allow pre-booked cycles from Ipswich to London but that seems to have been dropped for the 2022 ride.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 2 Mar 2023 ==

It does seem to raise the question... what if someone is a genuine cycle commuter with, for example, a Brompton or such, who needs to use the service on that day to get to work? Would denying carriage of their cycle not be breaching the contract? When it says "all bikes", does this include adapted cycles and cycles used as mobility aids? I can understand the annoyance that accommodating so many cyclists must cause, but aren't these restrictions a little excessive? It seems they go a little bit beyond what the contract permits them to do.

The main demand is early on Sunday morning so that is unlikely, although not impossible.

There is also a lorry and coach service for cyclists to return to London.

 

[cyclebike]

I always kind of assumed that in this context "folding cycle" only referred to Bromptons and such, where they fold twice down to little more than the 16" wheel size. You can get full-size folding bikes which basically fold in half but still obviously take up a fair whack of space!

 

[Ediswan]

Small point of order. The link given is for the 2022 event. Assuming GA do the same for 2023, the dates affected will be 1st-3rd July.

 

[43066]

In that event, any refusal to accept travel with such 'luggage' on a through ticket bought at another TOC's station where it is unlikely that prior notice would be given would be a breach of contract according to NRCoT requirements.

In that situation you might have a point under 23.1 of the conditions (which is badly drafted, and perhaps should have been and/or, as per my emphasis below!)

a Train Company has set out any special conditions relating to the carrying of luggage on their own train services. In such cases these conditions will be made available when buying your Ticket in advance and will be shown on the Train Company’s website.

But the company can fall back on refusing to accommodate the bike for the other reasons given, and the general obligation to obey instructions of staff etc.

Is it really so difficult for people to accept there may be a valid need for this, rather than looking for clever ways around it? The fact is people turning up with bikes will be refused travel and end up in conflict with staff etc. so surely the best advice is just to follow the advice given by the TOC?

 

[dazzler]

The Dunwich Dynamo has got a lot bigger since it started in the 1990s - it was into the thousands before COVID-19. Even a small proportion of riders turning up at Darsham, which is the nearest station to Dunwich, would overload the train. As an unticketed event there's no way for GA to know how many people might turn up. Before COVID they did allow pre-booked cycles from Ipswich to London but that seems to have been dropped for the 2022 ride.

I seem to remember that the ability to pre-book bikes on the Anglia service from Ipswich was dropped on the introduction of the Class 745 units and the withdrawal of the Class 90 + Mk3 + DVT sets. With the Mk3 DVT, it was possible to get at least 50 bikes on each train. Anglia also helped in that respect by re-timing the relevant Sunday services to leave Norwich slightly earlier on that particular Sunday to give extra time to load the bikes on at Ipswich.

 

[AM9]

In that situation you might have a point under (badly drafted) 23.1:



But the company can fall back on refusing to accommodate the bike for the other reasons given, and the general obligation to obey instructions of staff etc.

Is it really so difficult for people to accept there may be a valid need for this, rather than looking for clever ways around it? The fact is people turning up with bikes will be refused travel and end up in conflict with staff etc. so surely the best advice is just to follow the advice given by the TOC?

In the situation that I pointed out, sombody arriving at a station run by TOC A, buying a walk-up ticket from there to a station in an area served by TOC B's services or requiring travel over the section where 'an event' is taking place is quite unlikely to be told that a resriction is in force at the time on purchasing a ticket to travel. The unless the trains is visible 'full', anybody employed by TOC B preventing the passenger from travelling according to their ticket is breaching the terms of the ticket held.

 

[43066]

In the situation that I pointed out, sombody arriving at a station run by TOC A, buying a walk-up ticket from there to a station in an area served by TOC B's services or requiring travel over the section where 'an event' is taking place is quite unlikely to be told that a resriction is in force at the time on purchasing a ticket to travel. The unless the trains is visible 'full', anybody employed by TOC B preventing the passenger from travelling according to their ticket is breaching the terms of the ticket held.

Yes, I realise that’s what you were saying, and I largely agree regarding 23.1 of the conditions, but the rest of my post still stands.

There’s also no requirement for a train to be “visibly full” for the other luggage provisions to apply and if you’re told to do something by a member of staff you must do so, on pain of committing a bylaw offence.

The long and the short of it is that the staff will be told “no bikes” and if you turn up with one you’ll be refused travel. Intricate arguments over the drafting of the conditions of travel are unlikely to change that position.

 

[duncanp]

There have been similar issues over the London to Brighton bike ride over the years, with bikes being banned over the whole of the Southern Railway network on the days affected.

I think Greater Anglia are quite within their rights to ban bikes, especially given the relatively infrequent service to Darsham on the affected days.

No one has an absolute right to take their bike, or indeed any item of luggage, on a train if, in the opinion of the train company, the item of luggage will cause an obstruction, nuisance or safety risk.

 

[bramling]

Yes, I realise that’s what you were saying, and I largely agree regarding 23.1 of the conditions, but the rest of my post still stands.

There’s also no requirement for a train to be “visibly full” for the other luggage provisions to apply and if you’re told to do something by a member of staff you must do so, on pain of committing a bylaw offence.

The long and the short of it is that the staff will be told “no bikes” and if you turn up with one you’ll be refused travel. Intricate arguments over the drafting of the conditions of travel are unlikely to change that position.

It’s an awkward one as it’s easy to see why there’s a need for restrictions.

But on the other hand I’d be pretty disgruntled if I was making an unrelated journey, wasn’t aware of any specific restrictions (one shouldn’t really be having to research local events any time one plans to make a rail journey, though of course it’s often very prudent to do so to avoid stuff like football matches etc), and got “turned away” - which could indeed cause quite a problem if you’re at a rural station, and it’s not like a dry train where you can just chuck the drink away.

In an ideal world this is where you want staff to enforce the restriction for those going to whatever the event is, but turn a blind eye to others, though of course doing that in practice is very difficult.

I remember when there was a concert on in my town and police had the knife arch out ant the station and the queue to pass through the arch was long. Anyone who looked respectable (ie was dressed like they’d just come from work) was being picked out of the queue and waved through, myself included. Full marks to the BTP from me on that one!

 

[43066]

But on the other hand I’d be pretty disgruntled if I was making an unrelated journey, wasn’t aware of any specific restrictions (one shouldn’t really be having to research local events any time one plans to make a rail journey, though of course it’s often very prudent to do so to avoid stuff like football matches etc), and got “turned away”.

In an ideal world this is where you want staff to enforce the restriction for those going to whatever the event is, but turn a blind eye to others, though of course doing that in practice is very difficult.

Yes agreed. Unfortunately these days we all know people will scream “discrimination” at the drop of a hat, often with absolutely no justification, so exercising discretion is getting harder to do and will potentially leave one open to allegations.

It’s an imperfect balancing act, at the end of the day; people using GA with bikes on one of these days, who bought their tickets other than at a GA station, and who aren’t attending this event, are likely to be a pretty small group. Due to the appalling behaviour we witness on a daily basis these days, I can see why they might feel the need for a blanket ban.

 

[AM9]

Yes agreed. Unfortunately these days we all know people will scream “discrimination” at the drop of a hat, often with absolutely no justification, so exercising discretion is getting harder to do and will potentially leave one open to allegations.

It’s an imperfect balancing act, at the end of the day; people using GA with bikes on one of these days, who bought their tickets other than at a GA station, and who aren’t attending this event, are likely to be a pretty small group. Due to the appalling behaviour we witness on a daily basis these days, I can see why they might feel the need for a blanket ban.

However small that group might be, they will still have travelled some distance from the origin, so presumably they would have the right to abort their journey and return to their starting station and receive a full refund?

 

[willD]

I think there's no easy answer to this. I'd like to think they'd use common sense if someone had a very good, Dynamo-unrelated reason to take their bike that day. Lots of people with medical conditions or disabilities use a cycle as part of their commute. Suppose I am someone who can't reasonably drive or use public transport because of some physical or psychiatric ailment. If I phoned up GA and said "I rely on my bike to get me to work, and I have a disability and no other feasible options," I think they would have to allow this as a "reasonable adjustment" to their rules.

Unfortunately, I feel like there's a somewhat pervasive notion that cyclists are always people with plenty other options for their journeys, who are just choosing to cycle, rather than having a need to do it. They're always concieved of as able bodied and riding road bikes (it's interesting to note the design specification of a bicycle for HS2 rolling stock gives the typical width of a road bike handlebar). It's the reason, for example, you see vertical bike storage which is tremendously unfriendly to anyone with an adapted cycle.

It's a real shame. Nobody who uses a cycle as part of their commute or other everyday journey should ever have to think "oh I can't take it today because it's July the Nth".

 

[2192]

...I remember when there was a concert on in my town and police had the knife arch out ant the station and the queue to pass through the arch was long. Anyone who looked respectable (ie was dressed like they’d just come from work) was being picked out of the queue and waved through, myself included. Full marks to the BTP from me on that one!

So next time the delinquents with knives will dress as though they are commuters... ?