GC London Nottingham trains 1960s

[Martello]

I grew up close to the GC main line in Harrow, and was a regular observer of the Marylebone to Nottingham steam hauled trains in the last year or two of operation (1965 and 1966).

My recollection is that there was an up train via Harrow on the Hill at about 1100 that formed the 14.38 down semi-fast back to Nottingham, and a parcels train that left Nottingham late morning and ran via the GW/GC joint line (South Ruislip) to Neasden to rejoin the main line to Marylebone.

The loco from that returned on the 16.38 semi-fast via Harrow on the Hill to Nottingham. Am I right so far?

So, how did the passenger stock of the 16.38 get to Marylebone?

How did the parcels stock get back to Nottingham?

Was there a third steam turn from Marylebone, at 20.38? What was the balancing up working for this?

Were there any scheduled DMU journeys over the whole Marylebone to Nottingham section?

So many questions, hopefully a few answers!

Keith.

 

[Magdalia]

There were 2 loco hauled passenger trains in each direction, 0815 and 1715 Nottingham-Marylebone, 1438 and 1638 going the other way. There was also 0838 Marylebone-Nottingham and 1220 back that was usually a DMU.

The van train departed Nottingham at about 1100 and was basically the empties off the 0140 and 0340 news trains from Marylebone. I think that the 0340 had passenger coaches that came back attached to the 1715 not on the van train.

 

[30907]

To confirm Magdalia's reply, the 1965 timetable is on www.timetableworld.com.

It shows the 0140 terminating at Leicester, and the 0340 spending nearly an hour at Woodford to become a r7sh-hour train into Nottingham.

 

[ChrisC]

This may be relevant. When I was around 6 years old in 1962 or 1963, I vaguely remember travelling from London Marylebone to Nottingham on a train during the night.

I had gone with my parents to take a relative to Gatwick Airport. We always travelled from Nottingham to London St Pancras and this was the only time we ever travelled on the Great Great Central.

Being only aged 6 I can’t remember very much but I know that we were very late arriving back in London from Gatwick and had missed the last train back from St. Pancras to Nottingham.

I don’t know what time we left Marylebone, and can’t remember anything about that, but I do remember travelling in the dark and arriving at Nottingham Victoria in what seemed to me like the middle of the night.

 

[30907]

This may be relevant. When I was around 6 years old in 1962 or 1963 I vaguely remember travelling from London Marylebone to Nottingham on a train during the night. I had gone with my parents to take a relative to Gatwick Airport. We always travelled from Nottingham to London St Pancras and this was the only time we ever travelled on the Great Great Central. Being only aged 6 I can’t remember very much but I know that we were very late arriving back in London from Gatwick and had missed the last train back from St. Pancras to Nottingham. I don’t know what time we left Marylebone and can’t remember anything about that but I do remember travelling in the dark and arriving at Nottingham Victoria in what seemed to me like the middle of the night.

Despite the rationalisation, there was still an overnight to Manchester via Sheffield V: 9.55pm SX, 10.45SO, plus a 12.40am Sun to Nottingham (newspapers I assume).
(There was also a Manchester sleeper because of the WC electrification works.)

 

[Martello]

Thanks to all of you, that was very enlightening. I'd not found Timetable World, what an incredible site! Tables 116 and 120 are very enlightening - I had no idea that there was a sleeping car service to Manchester from Marylebone! (thanks 30907 for pointing that out). Too late tonight for any more deliberations, but I have plenty to study.

Keith.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Thanks to all of you, that was very enlightening. I'd not found Timetable World, what an incredible site! Tables 116 and 120 are very enlightening - I had no idea that there was a sleeping car service to Manchester from Marylebone! (thanks 30907 for pointing that out). Too late tonight for any more deliberations, but I have plenty to study.

The WCML Manchester sleeper ran via the GC throughout the electrification works from about 1961 and would have finished in 1966 when Manchester-Euston resumed.
I used the GC train once northbound around 1964, trying to stay awake but didn't see much in the dark.
It was steam hauled to Nottingham Victoria where an EE type 4 came on for the run to Manchester via Woodhead.
I think it was nominally non-stop, and the Nottingham stop was just to change engines.

I have a 1959 LM timetable, and it shows a Marylebone-Manchester overnight train (non-sleeper) which had a Liverpool portion which went via Stockport TD and the CLC route to Warrington C and Liverpool C.

 

[Taunton]

As well as the GC trains there were some, generally overnight, WCML services which normally would have used Euston but were diverted to Marylebone during the rebuilding and electrification works. They are shown as such in Table 50 of that 1965 timetable linked above. They came via Bletchley and Calvert, and finished in April 1966 when the WCML electrification was inaugurated (though the Euston reconstruction was far from complete). I think they would all come in via Harrow, the GC option through High Wycombe having faded away by then.

When I first came to London a senior manager at the office then had been an enthusiast in 1965-66, and spoke of working on Saturday mornings (as was done then), thence with friends would sometimes go to Marylebone and blast off on the Saturday afternoon 1438 to Leicester with an Annesley Black 5, as a change to the over-popular steam services from Waterloo, returning on that afternoon service from Nottingham

 

[Martello]

There were 2 loco hauled passenger trains in each direction, 0815 and 1715 Nottingham-Marylebone, 1438 and 1638 going the other way. There was also 0838 Marylebone-Nottingham and 1220 back that was usually a DMU.

The van train departed Nottingham at about 1100 and was basically the empties off the 0140 and 0340 news trains from Marylebone. I think that the 0340 had passenger coaches that came back attached to the 1715 not on the van train.

Thanks, having had a good look at the 1965 timetable, and personal recollections, I know that the loco on the 08.15 up from Nottingham returned on the 14.38 down from Marylebone (I saw these trains many times around Harrow) and I am pretty sure that the loco that worked the 16.38 down train had reached Marylebone on the vans train, via South Ruislip. I remember seeing Sulzer type 2s on an evening at Harrow, which I now assume were on the 17.15 up from Nottingham and (as you said) would provide the passenger stock for one or both of the night-time down trains (which I knew nothing about!).

I started at secondary school in Pinner in September 1965 and with the new-found freedom of a bike, in the last 12 months of the GC main line I went to see the Nottingham train(s) on 88 days, all Black 5 hauled.

It was steam hauled to Nottingham Victoria where an EE type 4 came on for the run to Manchester via Woodhead.
I think it was nominally non-stop, and the Nottingham stop was just to change engines.

Interesting to learn about the sleepers, especially that steam was used.

Facilities for servicing steam were limited at Marylebone, and Neasden shed had closed, and as far as I was aware, the aim was to get the locos out of the area as quickly as possible!

Keith.

 

[Magdalia]

I remember seeing Sulzer type 2s on an evening at Harrow, which I now assume were on the 17.15 up from Nottingham and (as you said) would provide the passenger stock for one or both of the night-time down trains (which I knew nothing about!).

The 1715 up from Nottingham was usually a standard daytime load 4 set plus the news carriages. There are lots of records and pictures of the 1715 around Nottingham, Leicester and Rugby; most if not all are steam. I think the loco returned north on one of the overnight trains.

I used the GC train once northbound around 1964, trying to stay awake but didn't see much in the dark.
It was steam hauled to Nottingham Victoria where an EE type 4 came on for the run to Manchester via Woodhead.
I think it was nominally non-stop, and the Nottingham stop was just to change engines.

The Marylebone-Manchester sleeper changed engines at Leicester Central and Sheffield Victoria. Between those two points its was booked a Darnall EE Type 3 that had worked south on the early evening York-Swindon. The overnight loco moves were complicated.

 

[Martello]

The 1715 up from Nottingham was usually a standard daytime load 4 set plus the news carriages. There are lots of records and pictures of the 1715 around Nottingham, Leicester and Rugby; most if not all are steam. I think the loco returned north on one of the overnight trains.

I agree, there are plenty of photos of steam on the 17.15 and interestingly, where you can see the stock, it's the usual 4-coach set, no vans! That suggests that all the vans did return at around 11.00 from Nottingham (unless Saturdays were different?). The 17.15 was 20.09 at Harrow but I seldom saw it. I found a photo of 44984 on the very last through working to Marylebone, the 17.15 on 3rd Sept 1966

Listing

www.railwayarchive.org.uk

The caption notes that the engine returned north on a Manchester train later that night, which (being a Saturday) was probably the 22.45. I wonder if that (21.45SX, 22.45SO) was the usual return working.
I am now wondering how the locos for the two newspaper trains 01.40 and 03.40 ex Marylebone reached London as there don't seem to be any other turns to balance them.

I missed the final day as I was in Leeds, mind you, I did see over two dozen steam around the Leeds sheds, including four Jubilees in two days so I mustn't complain.

 

[Taunton]

Difficult unless you have them, but the monthly detailed train observations reported in Modern Railways at this time in 1965-66 must have had a regular correspondent on the southern GC line, who sent in most months accounts of any and all oddball loco workings as well as the regular ones. I never saw the line but recall reading these. Anything provided by Annesley was steam to the end, while from the London end (including steam failure substitutes) after Neasden shed closed Class 24 diesels were provided by Willesden depot. This must have been quite a shunt to get to Marylebone, and the same will have been true about how they got those diverted Euston sleepers, several on some nights, back to Willesden sidings.

It may have been the same enthusiast (or staff member) who in early 1960 had a lengthy and detailed article published there, including the loco workings, of observations at Leicester Central of the last day of the mainstream Marylebone expresses, which had been I think 31 December 1959.

 

[Magdalia]

I found a photo of 44984 on the very last through working to Marylebone, the 17.15 on 3rd Sept 1966

Railway Observer November 1966 has an extensive report on the last day with an almost complete record of the locomotives in operation.

The caption notes that the engine returned north on a Manchester train later that night, which (being a Saturday) was probably the 22.45. I wonder if that (21.45SX, 22.45SO) was the usual return working.
I am now wondering how the locos for the two newspaper trains 01.40 and 03.40 ex Marylebone reached London as there don't seem to be any other turns to balance them.

There was also an up sleeper from Manchester to Marylebone. But I think there was one more down train than up train at the Marylebone end.

 

[Harvester]

Anything provided by Annesley was steam to the end, while from the London end (including steam failure substitutes) after Neasden shed closed Class 24 diesels were provided by Willesden depot. This must have been quite a shunt to get to Marylebone, and the same will have been true about how they got those diverted Euston sleepers, several on some nights, back to Willesden sidings.

Annesley closed in January 1966, and Colwick became responsible for those duties until the end (3/9/1966). These workings were on an out and home basis, with turning and servicing done at Marylebone. Serious failures had their fires dropped and were dumped until arrangements could be made to tow them back north.

According to the Railway Observer the last working from Marylebone on 3/9/66 was the SO 22:45 to Manchester, with 44984 returning north hauling nine coaches and a parcel van. It was replaced at Leicester Central by D6800. The filthy Black Five was still carrying the wreath attached to the smokebox, fitted before it’s trip south on the 17:15 from Nottingham.

 

[Martello]

Thanks to all who have enlightened me about the Marylebone - Nottingham trains, particularly the nocturnal activities, much of which was news to me, 57 years after the event! Keith.

 

[70014IronDuke]

According to the Railway Observer the last working from Marylebone on 3/9/66 was the SO 22:45 to Manchester, with 44984 returning north hauling nine coaches and a parcel van. It was replaced at Leicester Central by D6800. The filthy Black Five was still carrying the wreath attached to the smokebox, fitted before it’s trip south on the 17:15 from Nottingham.

This is surely true because it was still carrying the wreath next day on Colwick shed.

Guess who took the wreath home with him?