CAF class 197 Civity for TfW: News and updates on introduction.

[cambsy]

I’m looking to do my first 197 ride this Saturday 4th March, on Man Air-North Wales services, which due to engineering works are running only to Rhyl, So if there are still 197’s Rhyl-Man Air, which diagrams are they likely to be on?.

 

[Jez]

Finally had my first journey on class 197 today, 1352 from Chester to Manchester Piccadilly so was on it just over an hour. I walked through the train and sat in 3 different seats during the journey. Seats very comfortable and plenty of legroom. Some space is lost to the catering area but it wasn't as much as I thought it would be. One carriage loses lots of space due to the toilet and catering area. The announcements were okay. Noticed a lack of table seats compared to the 175s. But overall lovely trains and I can't wait for them to start appearing in the South.

As to whether I prefer them to a 175, its a difficult one to judge as they are quite different. These reminded me more of the transpennie express 185s or the 170s with the doors in the middle. But all things considered I think they are slightly better than a 175 and obviously far better than any Sprinter including a 158.

Obviously there are less toilets per carriage and lots of seating lost due to the toilet and catering area but basing my opinion on the overall comfort and customer experience rather than the reduced seats and toilets.

 

[L401CJF]

Finally had my first journey on class 197 today, 1352 from Chester to Manchester Piccadilly so was on it just over an hour. I walked through the train and sat in 3 different seats during the journey. Seats very comfortable and plenty of legroom. Some space is lost to the catering area but it wasn't as much as I thought it would be. One carriage loses lots of space due to the toilet and catering area. The announcements were okay. Noticed a lack of table seats compared to the 175s. But overall lovely trains and I can't wait for them to start appearing in the South.

As to whether I prefer them to a 175, its a difficult one to judge as they are quite different. These reminded me more of the transpennie express 185s or the 170s with the doors in the middle. But all things considered I think they are slightly better than a 175 and obviously far better than any Sprinter including a 158.

Obviously there are less toilets per carriage and lots of seating lost due to the toilet and catering area but basing my opinion on the overall comfort and customer experience rather than the reduced seats and toilets.

I agree they're quite pleasant. The seats arnt bad and the interior design is a lot nicer than Northerns bright blue design on their CAFs (and sprinters) in my opinion. I find a 175 feels a bit more refined and the interior on a 197 feels more cramped in comparison - although ive found legroom etc to be OK on the 197.

I do feel the lack of luggage space on the 197 is going to cause big issues though especially along the coast in the summer. There's nowhere near enough luggage space on a 175/158 for the amount of punters heading off to North Wales in the summer as it is, so any less than that is a step back. Lack of luggage space has already proved an issue with racks filling up with a couple of passengers bags, followed by the small bike spaces. Its not even peak season yet!

Obviously TfWs (and ATWs before them) problem for years has been overcrowding.

Last summer was absolutely horrendous with almost every train on the NW coast crush loaded leaving dozens of people behind on every trip.
The only way these units are going to be beneficial in the summer months is if they stick to the original plan of running them in multiple as 4/5/6 cars along the coast. A nightmare on the 175s as short platforms means the rear set has to be locked out for certain stops, moving people into the right unit etc. At least with ASDO on the 197s people can walk forward through the entire unit and all platformed doors can be opened.

Only time will tell!

 

[Jez]

I agree they're quite pleasant. The seats arnt bad and the interior design is a lot nicer than Northerns bright blue design on their CAFs (and sprinters) in my opinion. I find a 175 feels a bit more refined and the interior on a 197 feels more cramped in comparison - although ive found legroom etc to be OK on the 197.

I do feel the lack of luggage space on the 197 is going to cause big issues though especially along the coast in the summer. There's nowhere near enough luggage space on a 175/158 for the amount of punters heading off to North Wales in the summer as it is, so any less than that is a step back. Lack of luggage space has already proved an issue with racks filling up with a couple of passengers bags, followed by the small bike spaces. Its not even peak season yet!

Obviously TfWs (and ATWs before them) problem for years has been overcrowding.

Last summer was absolutely horrendous with almost every train on the NW coast crush loaded leaving dozens of people behind on every trip.
The only way these units are going to be beneficial in the summer months is if they stick to the original plan of running them in multiple as 4/5/6 cars along the coast. A nightmare on the 175s as short platforms means the rear set has to be locked out for certain stops, moving people into the right unit etc. At least with ASDO on the 197s people can walk forward through the entire unit and all platformed doors can be opened.

Only time will tell!

Yes I noticed there wasn't much storage for luggage. On the carriage with the toilet and catering area think there was only one luggage rack. Ideally these need to be doubled up to at least 4 car. Yesterday the train was quite lightly loaded but it was a weekday lunchtime not in peak holiday season. But nearly each double seat/table had at least 1 person sat on departure from Chester. It was more lighter loaded after Warrington.

On reflection the 175s are excellent for long distance since especially since they were refurbished. How the 197s will be for 4 hours plus journeys remains to be seen and its difficult to compare them like for like with a 175 as everything is different from the door location to the seats, amount of tables and luggage space, information screens etc. They are more like an upgraded version of a 170. If I had to choose id say they are marginally better than a 175 which is good as I'm a big 175 fan since they got their refurbishment a few years ago. I think they will do a decent job on the long distance routes if they can guarantee 4 or 5 carriages on the busiest routes e.g North Wales coast in peak summer and Swansea to Manchester all year.
.

I'm hoping to do another trip this morning before I head back to South Wales this afternoon. Might as well as I might not get another chance til they start appearing on journeys departing from Cardiff.

Also the 150 that I got from Shrewsbury to Chester was swapped ar Chester for a 158 to Continue its journey to Holyhead. Just as well for those passengers as the 150 was appalling - dirty and overcrowded! It was by far the worst part of my journey and the busiest with people standing between Gobowen and Wrexham General.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 1 Mar 2023 ==

I’m looking to do my first 197 ride this Saturday 4th March, on Man Air-North Wales services, which due to engineering works are running only to Rhyl, So if there are still 197’s Rhyl-Man Air, which diagrams are they likely to be on?.

There should be some 197s. Probably best to check on RTT on the day if there is engineering works for part of the route as allocations may be different

 

[60159]

Yes I noticed there wasn't much storage for luggage. On the carriage with the toilet and catering area think there was only one luggage rack. Ideally these need to be doubled up to at least 4 car. Yesterday the train was quite lightly loaded but it was a weekday lunchtime not in peak holiday season. But nearly each double seat/table had at least 1 person sat on departure from Chester. It was more lighter loaded after Warrington.

On reflection the 175s are excellent for long distance since especially since they were refurbished. How the 197s will be for 4 hours plus journeys remains to be seen and its difficult to compare them like for like with a 175 as everything is different from the door location to the seats, amount of tables and luggage space, information screens etc. They are more like an upgraded version of a 170. If I had to choose id say they are marginally better than a 175 which is good as I'm a big 175 fan since they got their refurbishment a few years ago. I think they will do a decent job on the long distance routes if they can guarantee 4 or 5 carriages on the busiest routes e.g North Wales coast in peak summer and Swansea to Manchester all year.
.

I'm hoping to do another trip this morning before I head back to South Wales this afternoon. Might as well as I might not get another chance til they start appearing on journeys departing from Cardiff.

Also the 150 that I got from Shrewsbury to Chester was swapped ar Chester for a 158 to Continue its journey to Holyhead. Just as well for those passengers as the 150 was appalling - dirty and overcrowded! It was by far the worst part of my journey and the busiest with people standing between Gobowen and Wrexham General.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 1 Mar 2023 ==


There should be some 197s. Probably best to check on RTT on the day if there is engineering works for part of the route as allocations may be different

According to the excellent PTS appears to be 10 out today. 4xManchester, Blaenau, and Liverpool in service and Shrewsbury’s got one to both Crewe and Chester and Swansea to both Cardiff and Carmarthen. Progress!
How many Llandudno-Manchester diagrams please.

 

[anthony263]

I think tfw should order additional centre carriages to make up more 3 carriage 197s

 

[Bletchleyite]

On reflection the 175s are excellent for long distance since especially since they were refurbished. How the 197s will be for 4 hours plus journeys remains to be seen and its difficult to compare them like for like with a 175 as everything is different from the door location to the seats, amount of tables and luggage space, information screens etc. They are more like an upgraded version of a 170. If I had to choose id say they are marginally better than a 175 which is good as I'm a big 175 fan since they got their refurbishment a few years ago. I think they will do a decent job on the long distance routes if they can guarantee 4 or 5 carriages on the busiest routes e.g North Wales coast in peak summer and Swansea to Manchester all year.

With regard to luggage, there is one big difference from the 170 and 175 - the overheads are huge. Guards will need to be proactive in getting people to use them rather than stacking bags by doors or worse on seats, as some people just won't put bags up even if they could. Thus the 197 has far, far more luggage space than either of those older classes - if it's used properly!

 

[Jamesrob637]

Yes I noticed there wasn't much storage for luggage. On the carriage with the toilet and catering area think there was only one luggage rack. Ideally these need to be doubled up to at least 4 car. Yesterday the train was quite lightly loaded but it was a weekday lunchtime not in peak holiday season. But nearly each double seat/table had at least 1 person sat on departure from Chester. It was more lighter loaded after Warrington.

On reflection the 175s are excellent for long distance since especially since they were refurbished. How the 197s will be for 4 hours plus journeys remains to be seen and its difficult to compare them like for like with a 175 as everything is different from the door location to the seats, amount of tables and luggage space, information screens etc. They are more like an upgraded version of a 170. If I had to choose id say they are marginally better than a 175 which is good as I'm a big 175 fan since they got their refurbishment a few years ago. I think they will do a decent job on the long distance routes if they can guarantee 4 or 5 carriages on the busiest routes e.g North Wales coast in peak summer and Swansea to Manchester all year.
.

I'm hoping to do another trip this morning before I head back to South Wales this afternoon. Might as well as I might not get another chance til they start appearing on journeys departing from Cardiff.

Also the 150 that I got from Shrewsbury to Chester was swapped ar Chester for a 158 to Continue its journey to Holyhead. Just as well for those passengers as the 150 was appalling - dirty and overcrowded! It was by far the worst part of my journey and the busiest with people standing between Gobowen and Wrexham General.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 1 Mar 2023 ==


There should be some 197s. Probably best to check on RTT on the day if there is engineering works for part of the route as allocations may be different

Exactly this. It's sometimes not so much the actual train, but how long it is. Six carriage 331s are great for Manchester to Blackpool in the summer but three carriages can be very unpleasant indeed.

 

[Jez]

Second trip on class 197 was 0951 Manchester Oxford Road to Manchester Airport and return. 197012. Was a bit late so only had a few minutes at the Airport before returning..

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 1 Mar 2023 ==

Exactly this. It's sometimes not so much the actual train, but how long it is. Six carriage 331s are great for Manchester to Blackpool in the summer but three carriages can be very unpleasant indeed.

I agree. More important to have a seat and plenty or space to move around rather than be packed in on top of each other!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 1 Mar 2023 ==

According to the excellent PTS appears to be 10 out today. 4xManchester, Blaenau, and Liverpool in service and Shrewsbury’s got one to both Crewe and Chester and Swansea to both Cardiff and Carmarthen. Progress!
How many Llandudno-Manchester diagrams please.

Usually 3 or 4? I have seen at least 2 lots of 175s heading to and from North Wales. One was a 5 car formation heading to Holyhead around 0950. The other coming from North Wales about an hour later was a 2 car 175. Noticed there was also a 175 parked up at Alstom outside Piccadilly.

 

[SuperLuke2334]

Usually 3 or 4? I have seen at least 2 lots of 175s heading to and from North Wales. One was a 5 car formation heading to Holyhead around 0950. The other coming from North Wales about an hour later was a 2 car 175. Noticed there was also a 175 parked up at Alstom outside Piccadilly.

There are 6 197s out today yes

 

[Jez]

There are 6 197s out today yes

I wonder if TFW will be able to have all 6 Llandudno-Manchester diagrams as 197s tomorrow given the news the 175s have been temporarily withdrawn.

 

[Techniquest]

Is anyone able to tell me which 197 was parked on Abbey Foregate sidings a little before 5pm today, 01/03/2023, please?

 

[craigybagel]

I wonder if TFW will be able to have all 6 Llandudno-Manchester diagrams as 197s tomorrow given the news the 175s have been temporarily withdrawn.

I would suspect that if they could they already would. It's not like there was a surplus of rolling stock available before today.

 

[SuperLuke2334]

I wonder if TFW will be able to have all 6 Llandudno-Manchester diagrams as 197s tomorrow given the news the 175s have been temporarily withdrawn.

It would appear not.

 

[Bikeman78]

I wonder if TFW will be able to have all 6 Llandudno-Manchester diagrams as 197s tomorrow given the news the 175s have been temporarily withdrawn.

I think the remaining two turns go to Holyhead at some point so that precludes the use of class 197s.

 

[OrangeJuice]

I think the remaining two turns go to Holyhead at some point so that precludes the use of class 197s.

Why can't the two remains turns go to Holyhead?

Is it because they then interwork with Birmingham/Cardiff diagrams?

 

[NewClee153]

I don’t know if this has been discussed elsewhere, but as a result of the unavailability of the 175s, most (if not all) Birmingham to Holyhead/Aberystwyth and Pwlheli services have been cut short to Wolverhampton

EDIT: Correction, it has been discussed

 

[anthony263]

6 class 197s out in service today.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

6 class 197s out in service today.

Do the three on the silly routes count

 

[Jez]

Apparently 7 out today in passenger service I've heard ? The usual 6 diagrams plus one other which will be swapped later as goes to Holyhead.

I thought all the depots in the North has been fully trained or is it just Chester and Llandudno Junction at the moment?

 

[SuperLuke2334]

Apparently 7 out today in passenger service I've heard ? The usual 6 diagrams plus one other which will be swapped later as goes to Holyhead.

I thought all the depots in the North has been fully trained or is it just Chester and Llandudno Junction at the moment?

All trained but presumably the one that goes to Holyhead later goes to Birmingham.

 

[Jez]

All trained but presumably the one that goes to Holyhead later goes to Birmingham.

That explains it. Thanks.

Good to see them getting more into service. After riding a 197 this week I'm even more keen for them to be rolled out in the South.

 

[pokemonsuper9]

004, 007, 012, = Llandudno - Manchester Airport
019 = Blaenau Ffestiniog - Llandudno
021 = Chester - Liverpool Lime Street
009 seems to be planned for ECS/Training Chester - Llandudno (but runs as required so might not run)
010 running ECS/Training Shrewsbury - Crewe
018 is running ECS/Training Cardiff - Swansea

 

[Bikeman78]

Why can't the two remains turns go to Holyhead?

Is it because they then interwork with Birmingham/Cardiff diagrams?

They don't interwork but the class 197s are not signed off to carry passengers to Holyhead yet. Unless anyone knows differently.

 

[craigybagel]

Do the three on the silly routes count

What would you define as a silly route?

Apparently 7 out today in passenger service I've heard ? The usual 6 diagrams plus one other which will be swapped later as goes to Holyhead.

I thought all the depots in the North has been fully trained or is it just Chester and Llandudno Junction at the moment?

Most crew across all 3 depots are trained, I don't think we're at 100% yet though.

They don't interwork but the class 197s are not signed off to carry passengers to Holyhead yet. Unless anyone knows differently.

That is my understanding as well. They're not signed off for passenger service to Crewe either, hence there have been some swaps at night at Chester.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

What would you define as a silly route?

Sorry should say two not three. Liverpool to Chester and Conwy Valley

 

[Jacob Porrett]

Newest 197 at Donnington RFT is 197044. Arrived the other day.

 

[Jez]

Having been on a 2 carriage 197 im wondering how the 3 car 197s will be layed out. Will it be like the 2 and 3 car 175s where the front and back carriage of a 3 car will be identical to the 2 car trains and the middle carriage will mostly just be seats and tables?

Also on the subject of tables, i counted 10 sets of tables on the 2 car. 6 sets in one carriage and 4 sets in the carriage with the catering area and toilet. In a 3 car will there be more tables in the middle carriage or just another 6 sets? It will be interesting to see how much is taken up with the first class section too. I assume the carriage with the toilet and the catering area will have first class at the end of that carriage which pretty much wipes out an entire carriage on a 3 car set for first class/catering and the toilet and disabled seating area.

 

[Anonymous10]

The 175s now appear to be re entering standard service saw two in Pembrokeshire in under an hour

 

[Dai Corner]

The 175s now appear to be re entering standard service saw two in Pembrokeshire in under an hour

Yes. The only alterations on TfW Journeycheck are that Birmingham International trains are turning back at Wolverhampton. That probably saves one or two 175s.