Haymarket to Dalmeny electrification

[Meerkat]

Just shows you how clever the Victorians were managing to build the bridge without all this knowledge

Isn't it massively over-engineered? I wonder what a modern equivalent would look like.
What do they need before Haymarket-Dalmeny can be used - Levenmouth finished, Thornton feeder, and southward from Thornton electrified?

 

[fgwrich]

I expect the other thing they have to consider is the rate of corrosion of the Forth Road Bridge was found to be much quicker than experienced in similar bridges due to the specific environmental conditions here. If they did not evaluate the corrosion rate now they will be sitting ducks in the future were any corrosion issues to occur later.

In fairness, a paint company was set up and they painted it one end to the other and then started all over again. This over many decades. The company used tio be a customer of mine and by the way, they used lead-based paint like all the Victorians and Georgians etc did. The Victorians did not have to worry about environmental regulations, or SVHC.

Indeed, the Firth of Forth certainly does have some unusual weather conditions - I've crossed both bridges countless times, and it's not uncommon to be leaving full daylight, before passing through it's own clouds (usually to quote in Cornish Mizzle) and remerging back into clear broad daylight again.

As for the paint itself (officially called Forth Bridge Red), it now uses very minuscule flecks of glass in it to preserve it for longer. Should now last 20 years before the next coat is required again.

 

[The exile]

Just shows you how clever the Victorians were managing to build the bridge without all this knowledge

Well, events one firth further north indicate they didn’t always get it right.

 

[snowball]

Isn't it massively over-engineered? I wonder what a modern equivalent would look like.

It was massively over-engineered in reaction to the collapse of the first Tay bridge.

What do they need before Haymarket-Dalmeny can be used - Levenmouth finished, Thornton feeder, and southward from Thornton electrified?

None of those necessary. As soon as Haymarket-Dalmeny itself is finished, KX-Aberdeen bi-modes can use it.

Anything in Fife proper requires, at minimum, the Thornton feeder and the delivery of the first BEMUs. By the time the BEMUs arrive I would expect the most or all of the current generation of Fife wiring will be in place.

If BEMUs could be made to arrive magically early, the Levenmouth branch could be the first, as it probably would be able to run with only the wiring of Haymarket-Dalmeny and the branch itself.

 

[adrock1976]

It was massively over-engineered in reaction to the collapse of the first Tay bridge.


None of those necessary. As soon as Haymarket-Dalmeny itself is finished, KX-Aberdeen bi-modes can use it.

Anything in Fife proper requires, at minimum, the Thornton feeder and the delivery of the first BEMUs. By the time the BEMUs arrive I would expect the most or all of the current generation of Fife wiring will be in place.

If BEMUs could be made to arrive magically early, the Levenmouth branch could be the first, as it probably would be able to run with only the wiring of Haymarket-Dalmeny and the branch itself.

Could you please explain how the London KX - Aberdeen trains can use the Haymarket - Dalmeny section of the wires as the first stop after Haymarket is Inverkeithing?

The Thameslink trains change voltage systems between AC overhead and DC third rail at Farringdon as all trains call there.

 

[zwk500]

Could you please explain how the London KX - Aberdeen trains can use the Haymarket - Dalmeny section of the wires as the first stop after Haymarket is Inverkeithing?

Pantographs can be raised on the move if the OLE is tensioned appropriately. (They can be lowered on the move regardless of OLE tension)

 

[snowball]

Pantographs can be raised on the move if the OLE is tensioned appropriately. (They can be lowered on the move regardless of OLE tension)

I'm not sure if any of the Hitachi 8xx's regularly do so at the moment, but they regularly did so at certain locations when the GWR electrificatiation was still being extended, as discussed in various threads at the time, and it is hoped that in due course Trans-Pennine ones will do so at Stalybridge and Church Fenton. And the Midland line ones too.

 

[adrock1976]

Pantographs can be raised on the move if the OLE is tensioned appropriately. (They can be lowered on the move regardless of OLE tension)

Many thanks.

Also, even though the Haymarket - Dalmeny section is planned to go ahead, has any provision been made for Winchburgh - Dalmeny, or has that been put on hold with the rest of the proposed Almond Link via the airport?

 

[Bald Rick]

Just shows you how clever the Victorians were managing to build the bridge without all this knowledge

Rather over engineered, compared to modern knowledge. And yet still with a big speed restriction and weight limits.

And when you stand in the top and a 158 goes over, it moves rather alarmingly! (Albeit safely).

 

[zwk500]

I'm not sure if any of the Hitachi 8xx's regularly do so at the moment, but they regularly did so at certain locations when the GWR electrificatiation was still being extended, as discussed in various threads at the time, and it is hoped that in due course Trans-Pennine ones will do so at Stalybridge and Church Fenton. And the Midland line ones too.

APCO zones are indicated in the LNE Sectional Appendix at most points where 80Xs would run out of wires. I'm not sure if all of them are pan up on the move, but it seems mad to have APCOs at Werrington if you were going to be pan up when sat at Peterborough, for example.

 

[snowball]

Also, even though the Haymarket - Dalmeny section is planned to go ahead, has any provision been made for Winchburgh - Dalmeny, or has that been put on hold with the rest of the proposed Almond Link via the airport?

Others on here will know better than me, but I suspect it would be unwise to hold your breath for either of those.

 

[fgwrich]

I'm not sure if any of the Hitachi 8xx's regularly do so at the moment, but they regularly did so at certain locations when the GWR electrificatiation was still being extended, as discussed in various threads at the time, and it is hoped that in due course Trans-Pennine ones will do so at Stalybridge and Church Fenton. And the Midland line ones too.

Perhaps not quite regularly, but the GWR 80Xs still do raise and drop the pan on the move, particularly on the Bristol via Bath line near Chippenham, and as I found out last week, Up / Down / Up on the approach to Paddington when necessary (due to OHLE issues in the Hayes area). So tensioned properly, I don't see why the LNER 80Xs couldn't do such on the approach to Dalmeny - I'm sure the ScotRail services will do similar in the future until the bridge is wired.

 

[Meerkat]

Anything in Fife proper requires, at minimum, the Thornton feeder and the delivery of the first BEMUs. By the time the BEMUs arrive I would expect the most or all of the current generation of Fife wiring will be in place.

If BEMUs could be made to arrive magically early, the Levenmouth branch could be the first, as it probably would be able to run with only the wiring of Haymarket-Dalmeny and the branch itself.

Will the spec get the BEMUs from Thornton to Dalmeny?
What is the delay in ordering them seeing as Levenmouth and Dalmeny has been on the cards for a while?

 

[snowball]

Will the spec get the BEMUs from Thornton to Dalmeny?

Don't know. I don't think the spec has been published yet. I think the distance Thornton-Dalmeny is roughly similar to the proposed unelectrified gap on the Borders line.

What is the delay in ordering them seeing as Levenmouth and Dalmeny has been on the cards for a while?

Presumably they're having to plan a very complex procurement comprising EMUs for some routes and BEMUs for others, some of which will be redeployed to other routes as the decarbonisation plan progresses, where everything depends on everything else.

 

[John R]

Perhaps not quite regularly, but the GWR 80Xs still do raise and drop the pan on the move, particularly on the Bristol via Bath line near Chippenham, and as I found out last week, Up / Down / Up on the approach to Paddington when necessary (due to OHLE issues in the Hayes area). So tensioned properly, I don't see why the LNER 80Xs couldn't do such on the approach to Dalmeny - I'm sure the ScotRail services will do similar in the future until the bridge is wired.

I’d say 4 times each hour day in day out east of Chippenham is reasonably regular!

 

[najaB]

Just shows you how clever the Victorians were managing to build the bridge without all this knowledge

If you over-engineer the heck out of it and paint it constantly then anything will last forever.

 

[73128]

I’d say 4 times each hour day in day out east of Chippenham is reasonably regular!

and 4 times an hour (two each way) west of Cholsey on Oxford services

 

[Falcon1200]

Does LNER's daily Inverness/Kings X service lower/raise pan on the move south of Dunblane (as neither train calls there), rather than when stopped at Stirling? I cannot recall!

 

[snowball]

Does LNER's daily Inverness/Kings X service lower/raise pan on the move south of Dunblane (as neither train calls there), rather than when stopped at Stirling? I cannot recall!

I seem to remember reading on here that there's a balise (or whatever they use) on the approach to Dunblane from the south to trigger a switch to diesel.

 

[northernbelle]

I'm not sure if any of the Hitachi 8xx's regularly do so at the moment, but they regularly did so at certain locations when the GWR electrificatiation was still being extended, as discussed in various threads at the time, and it is hoped that in due course Trans-Pennine ones will do so at Stalybridge and Church Fenton. And the Midland line ones too.

Yes, happens day in, day out at full line speed on the Great Western and seems to be a reliable process.

Locations on the GW where this happens:

At line speed:

• East of Newbury Racecourse (trains not stopping at Newbury)
• East of Chippenham
• Moreton Junction (Didcot) - trains heading to/from Oxford

At low speed or station stops:

• Bristol Parkway - for trains via Filton
• Patchway - for trains via Filton
• Cardiff Central - trains heading to/from Swansea in the station
• Newbury - trains heading to/from the west and calling

 

[matchmaker]

I'm not sure if any of the Hitachi 8xx's regularly do so at the moment, but they regularly did so at certain locations when the GWR electrificatiation was still being extended, as discussed in various threads at the time, and it is hoped that in due course Trans-Pennine ones will do so at Stalybridge and Church Fenton. And the Midland line ones too.

LNER ones do so daily on the Highland Chieftain at a location between Stirling and Bridge of Allan.

 

[Yindee8191]

Yes, happens day in, day out at full line speed on the Great Western and seems to be a reliable process.

Locations on the GW where this happens:

At line speed:

• East of Newbury Racecourse (trains not stopping at Newbury)
• East of Chippenham
• Moreton Junction (Didcot) - trains heading to/from Oxford

At low speed or station stops:

• Bristol Parkway - for trains via Filton
• Patchway - for trains via Filton
• Cardiff Central - trains heading to/from Swansea in the station
• Newbury - trains heading to/from the west and calling

I’m not sure I’d say line speed - east of Chippenham trains for London go pretty slowly (not sure how fast) despite there being not much curving or anything until they’re on the wires. Definitely on the move though.

 

[northernbelle]

I’m not sure I’d say line speed - east of Chippenham trains for London go pretty slowly (not sure how fast) despite there being not much curving or anything until they’re on the wires. Definitely on the move though.

Trains not calling at Chippenham are potentially doing line speed - no reason why they can't be.

 

[The exile]

Trains not calling at Chippenham are potentially doing line speed - no reason why they can't be.

There's precious few of those, though. Indeed, except during diversions, are there any?

 

[northernbelle]

There's precious few of those, though. Indeed, except during diversions, are there any?

Plenty of ECS and diversions that do.

On the Newbury line there are at least 2 100mph+ changeovers every hour.

My point is that it's a regular occurrence in GW land, which it is.

 

[gingertom]

Plenty of ECS and diversions that do.

On the Newbury line there are at least 2 100mph+ changeovers every hour.

My point is that it's a regular occurrence in GW land, which it is.

so a changeover at 50mph on approach to Dalmeny would be taken in its stride.

 

[Waverleystu]

Any word on when we’re likely to see work commencing on the equipment going up or is it looking like the new year for a closure again?

 

[EastFifer]

Hi everyone, I actually work at Edinburgh Airport and I’ve noticed that Network Rail and some electrical companies have set up a site just outside of the airport on Turnhouse Road. There appears to be lots of steel cylinders used for piling in the foundations for the OHLE’s. Since I start work quite early, I see the workers come off the railway and back on site at around 5am. This surely suggests that electrification work IS ongoing but without much coverage.

 

[Sean Emmett]

Yes, happens day in, day out at full line speed on the Great Western and seems to be a reliable process.

Locations on the GW where this happens:

At line speed:

• East of Newbury Racecourse (trains not stopping at Newbury)
• East of Chippenham
• Moreton Junction (Didcot) - trains heading to/from Oxford

At low speed or station stops:

• Bristol Parkway - for trains via Filton
• Patchway - for trains via Filton
• Cardiff Central - trains heading to/from Swansea in the station
• Newbury - trains heading to/from the west and calling

And in Swindon station for the through Golden Valley trains

For a while IETs were lowering pantos to switch to diesel to negotiate Steventon overbridge, and raising them again afterwards - before the electric limit was raised from 60 mph to 110 mph.

For trains not stopping at Didcot those changeovers took place at over 120 mph.

Also on the ECML, certain LNER trains were required to switch to diesel between Newcastle and Edinburgh (and vv) on the move, to avoid too much draw on the OHLE - before the power supply was upgraded.

 

[Class 170101]

I'm not sure if any of the Hitachi 8xx's regularly do so at the moment, but they regularly did so at certain locations when the GWR electrificatiation was still being extended, as discussed in various threads at the time, and it is hoped that in due course Trans-Pennine ones will do so at Stalybridge and Church Fenton. And the Midland line ones too.

Also on the ECML, certain LNER trains were required to switch to diesel between Newcastle and Edinburgh (and vv) on the move, to avoid too much draw on the OHLE - before the power supply was upgraded.

I think its been said elsewhere that TPE Class 802s change south of York on the move now rather than in York Station.