Arriva Buses (including Greenline)

[GusB]

I'm aware that there is a bit of an overlap between this thread and the Cheshire Bus News thread, but this one should be Arriva-specific. Any actual news about routes being picked up by other Cheshire operators should be posted here:

Cheshire Bus News (was East Cheshire Bus News)

Cheshire East Council have now decided to award a tender for the 38 Macclesfield - Crewe evening journeys which were due to be withdrawn in June, after D&G registering them commercially during the original tender process then decided not to proceed after all. Bakerbus will run the service at...

www.railforums.co.uk

I'd suggest that if anyone wishes to speculate about what might happen, they should start a new thread.

Obviously this is going to be a stressful time for the staff involved, especially with the additional financial pressures that people are currently feeling; please bear this in mind when posting.

Thanks

 

[K219UHA]

All very sad. Looks like the main Oswestry routes are going to be run from the other ends, ie Wrexham and Shrewsbury.

Driving staff at Oswestry have been offered to option to transfer to Wrexham with the 2/2A/2C or to Shrewsbury with the X5 and 53 or sadly face redundancy. The 53 has secured funding for the moment to continue but awkward to operate from Shrewsbury depot.

Without trying to be too negative, staff informed of meeting by 14:00 to be scheduled for 19:30 and it then quickly went online in a statement upon completion. My thoughts to the staff at Oswestry, a number of friends too.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Stagecoach could could conceivably take on the 84 and run it from Chester. This depot is part of Ribble and has depots in Birkenhead (Rock Ferry). Liverpool and Preston and would have no problem in sourcing additional buses.

All very sad. Looks like the main Oswestry routes are going to be run from the other ends, ie Wrexham and Shrewsbury.

So why are Arriva not going to continue the 84 and run it themselves from Chester? I am pretty confident someone will run the 84, probably also the 31 and 37, D&G might slightly improve the 38 but that's already in place, maybe D & G or High peak will take on some of the Macclesfield locals but I would expect quite a reduction. Depends if existing are prepared to work elsewhere.

Stagecoach could conceivably run the 84 from Chester but the main body of the service is weighted towards the Crewe to Nantwich corridor. That would be achievable with some clever scheduling but you are essentially running it "from the wrong end". In the suggestion for Arriva's Hawarden depot to take it up, that same issue is compounded by then having a depot 6/7 miles on the wrong side of Chester.

Sadly, I did see the end of Oswestry coming. I was there in the summer and just thought that their two main routes could be picked up by Caego and Shrewsbury. Once you take the view that that can happen, then you're keeping a depot going for a town service and a few secondary routes of which a number are tendered. I don't post such views as it's a bit crass to speculate on what are people's livelihoods. Making it as opaque as possible, I can sadly see another Arriva depot in the Midlands under threat, plus at least a couple of others across England and Wales.

I did call out the decline of Arriva when people were still obsessing over First; the Covid and inflation earthquake only served to expose the fundamental flaws with the business.

 

[A0]

D&G or Stagecoach possibly

Doubt it'll be Stagecoach - they've been consolidating in the areas they already operate in and I think if they'd had an interest in either Macclesfield or Winsford they'd have done something on that already.

Stagecoach are quite commercially savvy - they've now withdrawn from the Biggleswade / Sandy area (apart from the 905 which runs through to Cambridge from Bedford). A few years back they were approached by the Competition Commission when Blazefield were selling Sovereign in Stevenage to Arriva and Stagecoach basically said "not interested".

If you look at the Macclesfield routes, you've got a a bunch of what are basically town services (3,4,5,6,9,10) and one medium distance 38 Crewe - Sandbach - Congleton - Macclesfield.

I suspect somebody will take the Crewe - Sandbach - Congleton section of the 38 as a commercial service. Beyond Congleton it really doesn't serve anywhere until it gets to Macclesfield (Gawsworth's not very big and that's the only place showing on the timetable - even a look on Google Maps shows that bus is basically running through countryside).

 

[K219UHA]

Sadly, I did see the end of Oswestry coming. I was there in the summer and just thought that their two main routes could be picked up by Caego and Shrewsbury. Once you take the view that that can happen, then you're keeping a depot going for a town service and a few secondary routes of which a number are tendered. I don't post such views as it's a bit crass to speculate on what are people's livelihoods.

Oswestry has faced speculation for over a decade, particularly off larger Midlands depot, some which were subsequently sold off. Oswestry staff have even speculated it over the years, but continued to work hard at a small and friendly depot, it had a family feel amongst the staff there. Commitment to Oswestry in recent years was shown, getting all vehicles refurbished / repainted into the latest livery, continuing post covid, pay rates to match Shrewsbury and Telford depots, also infrastructure improvements at the Salop Road premises.

Despite a positive outlook for the future, Town Services lost to Tanat Valley late 2021 on tendering. 2022 management reporting became more remote and less focused locally, cutbacks with the 53 and dropping of the X4 be implemented, despite local management pointing out the issues, particularly with the 53 it was dismissed. Late 2022 saw the 576 tender lost to Tanat Valley and certainly caused concern. 2023 it was notable a key member of North West, i.e. the Engineering Director assumed management with Midlands alongside North West & Wales and here we are.

 

[A0]

Making it as opaque as possible, I can sadly see another Arriva depot in the Midlands under threat, plus at least a couple of others across England and Wales.

Do you mean geographically in the Midlands or do you mean within Arriva Midlands ? The two aren't quite the same.

If the latter, I'd probably agree with you and am looking at the south of their area - Buckinghamshire to be specific.

 

[Simon75]

Winsford opened c1990 by Crosville to replace Northwich bus station/garage.
It then went to North Western, and since then then was a dumping ground for old vehicles.
When the Crewe garage closed in 2005, services went to Winsford
Macclesfield Gaw End Lane was opened c 2005 replacing with old town centre garage/bus Station .Though services had been reduced since it opened, the allocation was about 15
Though it was 'new,' its always looked run down . Currently about 6 buses are based there.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Do you mean geographically in the Midlands or do you mean within Arriva Midlands ? The two aren't quite the same.

If the latter, I'd probably agree with you and am looking at the south of their area - Buckinghamshire to be specific.

I can guess the one you mean but no, not that one

Northwich transferred back to North Western (albeit the new firm) from Crosville before closure. @Simon75

 

[Tetchytyke]

Despite a positive outlook for the future, Town Services lost to Tanat Valley late 2021 on tendering. 2022 management reporting became more remote and less focused locally, cutbacks with the 53 and dropping of the X4 be implemented, despite local management pointing out the issues, particularly with the 53 it was dismissed. Late 2022 saw the 576 tender lost to Tanat Valley and certainly caused concern.

Sounds like a rinse and repeat of the retrenchment Arriva have been doing in the north east, both before and after Covid. I sadly imagine there will be a lot more coming.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Sounds like a rinse and repeat of the retrenchment Arriva have been doing in the north east, both before and after Covid. I sadly imagine there will be a lot more coming.

It's been going on everywhere (with the exception of Yorkshire) for a few years

North East has seen the network reduced to skeletal levels but there's so many more. Cheshire's demise was the natural conclusion of the last 20 years. Look at the Arriva Wales business - it's about 160 vehicles and as well as withdrawing from mid Wales, it's remaining territory now looks very sparsely served. Same with the old M&D business - now retrenched into Gillingham and Maidstone and with Tunbridge Wells looking increasingly forlorn.

 

[Tetchytyke]

It's been going on everywhere (with the exception of Yorkshire) for a few years

Even Yorkshire is being trimmed away to nothing, Arriva have just given up on quite a lot of their network in the old woollen district, even before Covid they were trimming away in Brighouse and the Spen Valley. Same in Castleford and Pontefract. The recent changes have just shredded their network in East Leeds too.

The whole Arriva operation has an absentee owner, and doesn’t it show.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Even Yorkshire is being trimmed away to nothing, Arriva have just given up on quite a lot of their network in the old woollen district, even before Covid they were trimming away in Brighouse and the Spen Valley. Same in Castleford and Pontefract. The recent changes have just shredded their network in East Leeds too.

The whole Arriva operation has an absentee owner, and doesn’t it show.

Was talking about depot closures but yes, I can't disagree with what you say

 

[Andyh82]

Even Yorkshire is being trimmed away to nothing, Arriva have just given up on quite a lot of their network in the old woollen district, even before Covid they were trimming away in Brighouse and the Spen Valley. Same in Castleford and Pontefract. The recent changes have just shredded their network in East Leeds too.

I’m not sure I recognise much of what you are saying there. There has been a bit of trimming but nothing massive, and some areas have seen improvements. I depends how far back your ‘before’ period is. 2019 or 2004?

 

[overthewater]

Does DB want to keep Arriva or is it back up for Sale? DB might be better off selling off company in areas instead of one lot.

 

[A0]

I can guess the one you mean but no, not that one

Depends - I was thinking of Wycombe.

Looking at their network, there's some town services, which I can't imagine are that profitable, the route to Henley / Reading which is probably profitable and routes to Aylesbury and Hemel.

The Hemel and Aylesbury routes could be operated by those depots and I would expect either Carousel or Reading Buses would be interested in the Wycombe - Reading route. Not sure about the town services.

 

[A0]

Does DB want to keep Arriva or is it back up for Sale? DB might be better off selling off company in areas instead of one lot.

I'm sure if somebody wanted to buy it DB would sell for a price.

Problem is if these operations were attractive you'd expect the likes of Go Ahead, Stagecoach, Nat Ex or even First might be interested - bit there's no sign of that.

 

[Tetchytyke]

I’m not sure I recognise much of what you are saying there. There has been a bit of trimming but nothing massive, and some areas have seen improvements. I depends how far back your ‘before’ period is. 2019 or 2004?

I think it’s safe to say the former West Riding operations have been cut less than the former Yorkshire Woollen operations, and in fairness depots haven’t shut. But even before Covid everything was getting cut, especially in the Spen Valley, and since Covid that’s just accelerated- the last bus from Halifax to Cleckheaton is about 6.30pm now.

 

[GusB]

I'm sure if somebody wanted to buy it DB would sell for a price.

Problem is if these operations were attractive you'd expect the likes of Go Ahead, Stagecoach, Nat Ex or even First might be interested - bit there's no sign of that.

I'm not at all familiar with Arriva's operations, nor how they tie-in with the operations of other big group companies, but there must be some reluctance on the part of other groups to purchase if it would result in the Competition and Markets Authority getting involved. If DB can't sell the group as a whole and individual subsidiaries are unattractive, I suppose their only option is to retreat and let smaller operators pick up the pieces.

It's not ideal from the point of view of the staff who will be unable to benefit from having their terms transferred to a new company.

 

[Snex]

It's been going on everywhere (with the exception of Yorkshire) for a few years

North East has seen the network reduced to skeletal levels but there's so many more. Cheshire's demise was the natural conclusion of the last 20 years. Look at the Arriva Wales business - it's about 160 vehicles and as well as withdrawing from mid Wales, it's remaining territory now looks very sparsely served. Same with the old M&D business - now retrenched into Gillingham and Maidstone and with Tunbridge Wells looking increasingly forlorn.

Must say there hasn't really been many cuts in the North East since Covid or since the big network changes over a decade ago now really. Some minor timetable tweaks but in the main there's not been many routes cut completely; other than the 54 on Sundays and the 46 everything else is pretty much as is and the Jesmond closure which hasn't really impacted things (yet). The other operators, Go North East in particular, locally have been much worse which is a right mess and is heading in a similar direction to other's mentioned above.

Arriva in Stockton and Darlington in particular are doing well and the SE Northumberland network seems to be doing fine aswell. It was a profitable area which can't be said about Arriva Midlands pre Covid.

The Blyth and Tyne Railway might change things substantially though.

 

[A0]

I'm not at all familiar with Arriva's operations, nor how they tie-in with the operations of other big group companies, but there must be some reluctance on the part of other groups to purchase if it would result in the Competition and Markets Authority getting involved. If DB can't sell the group as a whole and individual subsidiaries are unattractive, I suppose their only option is to retreat and let smaller operators pick up the pieces.

It's not ideal from the point of view of the staff who will be unable to benefit from having their terms transferred to a new company.

Stagecoach might have a problem if they tried to buy all of Arriva on total market share concerns, but I doubt Nat Ex or Go Ahead would have such an issue.

In areas where it might give the buyer a monopoly e.g. in the North East I suspect the competition authorities would take a look but given the challenges of running buses in the UK, unless one of the othe groups objected it may just go through on the grounds nobody else wants them.

 

[overthewater]

I'm not at all familiar with Arriva's operations, nor how they tie-in with the operations of other big group companies, but there must be some reluctance on the part of other groups to purchase if it would result in the Competition and Markets Authority getting involved. If DB can't sell the group as a whole and individual subsidiaries are unattractive, I suppose their only option is to retreat and let smaller operators pick up the pieces.

It's not ideal from the point of view of the staff who will be unable to benefit from having their terms transferred to a new company.

First could buy Liverpool, Derby and Milton Keynes with out any need for CMA to come along. Same for Go-Ahead buy Colchester, Southend, Kent and Surry, National Express could buy All of Yorkshire again no need for CMA.

 

[WibbleWobble]

If you look at the Macclesfield routes, you've got a a bunch of what are basically town services (3,4,5,6,9,10) and one medium distance 38 Crewe - Sandbach - Congleton - Macclesfield.

I suspect somebody will take the Crewe - Sandbach - Congleton section of the 38 as a commercial service. Beyond Congleton it really doesn't serve anywhere until it gets to Macclesfield (Gawsworth's not very big and that's the only place showing on the timetable - even a look on Google Maps shows that bus is basically running through countryside).

Plus the 37 Northwich - Sandbach - Crewe, which has traditionally augmented the 38 south of Sandbach.

Just seeing the current timetables shows how much things have been cut back:
- the 31 was at one point every 15 minutes (thanks to rural bus funding), but was for many years every 20-30 minutes.
- the 37 was traditionally every 30 minutes north of Sandbach, but timed so that the shorts connected with the 38.
- there was a 29 which served the estates between Winsford and Northwich, so that corridor was every 10 minutes at one point!
- the 84 was every 15 minutes Crewe - Nantwich and every 30 mins through to Chester, currently every 20/60 mins.

 

[Class142sbad]

Must say there hasn't really been many cuts in the North East since Covid or since the big network changes over a decade ago now really. Some minor timetable tweaks but in the main there's not been many routes cut completely; other than the 54 on Sundays and the 46 everything else is pretty much as is and the Jesmond closure which hasn't really impacted things (yet). The other operators, Go North East in particular, locally have been much worse which is a right mess and is heading in a similar direction to other's mentioned above.

Arriva in Stockton and Darlington in particular are doing well and the SE Northumberland network seems to be doing fine aswell. It was a profitable area which can't be said about Arriva Midlands pre Covid.

The Blyth and Tyne Railway might change things substantially though.

Know the SE Northumberland network well. The only real covid service withdrawals were the 46 and the X16 which ran from Kirkhill in Morpeth to Newcastle. The Kirkhill bit is now just the 2 which runs from Blyth. Morpeth still has 3 buses every hour to Newcastle (X14, X15, X18). The 46 is now the X46 contracted service which runs every hour. I can imagine the services in South East Nortumberland are quite profitable with short hops (2 - 5 Miles) like the 1, 2 and 35. There have been service cuts to the timetable like services that used to be every 20 minutes are now every 30 minutes. All of the buses I see and have been on always look full. As long as people keep on using the bus in SE Northumberland I think it will be fine.
Yeah the Ashington Line might change things as well with some service cuts. I looked at other bus forums and they have been speculating about this. Would love to speculate but this is not the place to do it.

 

[Snex]

Know the SE Northumberland network well. The only real covid service withdrawals were the 46 and the X16 which ran from Kirkhill in Morpeth to Newcastle. The Kirkhill bit is now just the 2 which runs from Blyth. Morpeth still has 3 buses every hour to Newcastle (X14, X15, X18). The 46 is now the X46 contracted service which runs every hour. I can imagine the services in South East Nortumberland are quite profitable with short hops (2 - 5 Miles) like the 1, 2 and 35. There have been service cuts to the timetable like services that used to be every 20 minutes are now every 30 minutes. All of the buses I see and have been on always look full. As long as people keep on using the bus in SE Northumberland I think it will be fine.
Yeah the Ashington Line might change things as well with some service cuts. I looked at other bus forums and they have been speculating about this. Would love to speculate but this is not the place to do it.

Yeah agreed, it's my local area too. Buses always seem busy when I've seen them tbh and they must see something in the area considering their protecting the services by getting agency staff in which isn't something I'd imagine a company doing if they want to bin it off. Not to mention the redevelopment of Blyth depot and assuming extension of Ashington depot plus the investment in new buses at Ashington. I'm surprised the likes of the 1 and 2 stayed every 20 minutes using minibuses for so long tbh and the drop to every 30 minutes isn't really the end of the world and arguably they've got an improvement in the Pulsar's over the awful Dart's and Solo's.

Can't see it going anywhere any time soon and I've heard Stockton and Darlington are doing very well from someone ITK. There's timetable changes coming in next month aswell which people speculate are going to be the 43/44/45/53 going back to normal frequency aswell (nothing confirmed yet but no doubt will be very soon).

It's not an area I'd be comparing to the likes of Cheshire imo.

 

[Tetchytyke]

It's not an area I'd be comparing to the likes of Cheshire imo.

These days perhaps not, but that’s largely because Arriva have retrenched from so much.

You don’t see many Arriva buses in the Durham coalfield these days, the local network in Durham city is largely gone, and Bishop Auckland isn’t far behind. Arriva have pulled back to south-east Northumberland in the north and Darlington, Redcar, and bits of Stockton in the south.

A far cry from even what it was ten years ago.

 

[Statto]

Stagecoach might have a problem if they tried to buy all of Arriva on total market share concerns, but I doubt Nat Ex or Go Ahead would have such an issue.

In areas where it might give the buyer a monopoly e.g. in the North East I suspect the competition authorities would take a look but given the challenges of running buses in the UK, unless one of the othe groups objected it may just go through on the grounds nobody else wants them.

Stagecoach will have issues, particularly in Merseyside if they tried to buy Arriva. Arriva was forced to sell Gillmoss depot after they bought MTL, as Arriva had too much of a monopoly in Liverpool at the time. Gillmoss is now owned by Stagecoach.

Stagecoach bought Rock Ferry along with Chester depot from First Group, so it will have too much of a monopoly on Wirral too. If they bought Arriva, with Arriva Laird Street depot.

Stagecoach would certainly be forced to sell one of the Wirral depots, & one of the depots in Liverpool, if they bought Arriva.

 

[Snex]

These days perhaps not, but that’s largely because Arriva have retrenched from so much.

You don’t see many Arriva buses in the Durham coalfield these days, the local network in Durham city is largely gone, and Bishop Auckland isn’t far behind. Arriva have pulled back to south-east Northumberland in the north and Darlington, Redcar, and bits of Stockton in the south.

A far cry from even what it was ten years ago.

That's fair must admit I did miss off Durham intentionally, it's a bit of a grey area and one that's not doing well and it's not unique to Arriva either. Go North East have pretty much decimated their network to the stage they don't serve Hartlepool at all and they might aswell not serve Peterlee for what's left with the Derwentside side extremely poor aswell now.

Seen the Arriva 57/57A have been reregistered lately and the section from Trimdon to Hartlepool is gone. It's definitely heading down a similar slippery slope must admit.

 

[A0]

Stagecoach will have issues, particularly in Merseyside if they tried to buy Arriva. Arriva was forced to sell Gillmoss depot after they bought MTL, as Arriva had too much of a monopoly in Liverpool at the time. Gillmoss is now owned by Stagecoach.

Stagecoach bought Rock Ferry along with Chester depot from First Group, so it will have too much of a monopoly on Wirral too. If they bought Arriva, with Arriva Laird Street depot.

Stagecoach would certainly be forced to sell one of the Wirral depots, & one of the depots in Liverpool, if they bought Arriva.

Stagecoach's takeover of Chester was a decade ago and Arriva's takeover of MTL was in 2000.

The market has changed significantly in the last 5 years and the competition authorities will consider this when making a decision.

 

[danielcanning]

Depends - I was thinking of Wycombe.

Looking at their network, there's some town services, which I can't imagine are that profitable, the route to Henley / Reading which is probably profitable and routes to Aylesbury and Hemel.

The Hemel and Aylesbury routes could be operated by those depots and I would expect either Carousel or Reading Buses would be interested in the Wycombe - Reading route. Not sure about the town services.

Arriva haven't operated the service between Hemel and Wycombe (routes 52/1) for a long time and last year withdrew completely from the jointly operated route between Wycombe and Chesham, in return gaining the 35 and 36 bus routes ( which run between Wycombe and Bourne End) from Carousel buses.

 

[Surreyman]

First could buy Liverpool, Derby and Milton Keynes with out any need for CMA to come along. Same for Go-Ahead buy Colchester, Southend, Kent and Surry, National Express could buy All of Yorkshire again no need for CMA.

Surrey has already Gone!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 28 Feb 2023 ==

Much as I would personally like to see Arriva Uk Bus broken up and or sold off, I think the reality is that in a post Covid world, Arriva management are simply having to bite the bullet and take drastic action to eliminate loss making operations. More to come I am sure.
I often think that the Arriva London operation would make a good acquisition for First!