LNER UFN and irregularity advice

[tigkr]

I am aware of the wrong ive done and i have been extremely destressed since it happened.
Im 17 and have never been on trains other than the c2c or the tube, so i would always tap my bank card or buy an adult ticket. I have a friend who lives in bradford and we were joking about how i should go visit him. The day we were i was at a house party a family friend was hosting and i had a bit too much to drink, i dont even remember buying my ticket but the next morning i see a confirmation email for my hotel and train, and think why not. My mother told me she was also going to sort out my 16-17 rail card in January when she got paid. Im assuming that's why i bought my ticket under 16-17 i dont even remember purchasing it. We dont have a lot of money im needing to find a second job myself, and my mum couldn't afford the railcards. I thought if i could prove my age on the train it would be okay. I got on at kings cross then about 2 stops in my ticket was checked and i was given a UFN for 145.50 i then called up to set up a payment plan as i earn 5£ an hour, but i was told( and this conversation is a bit wishy washy to me) something about paying the difference on my return tickets so that i could get home and send proof that i didn't commit evasion a second time of that to be able to get my fine deducted, but we had a misunderstanding and she ment send proof of a railcard and the tickets and i thought she ment just the tickets. She emailed it on the to RP team? Who im assuming are revenue and prosecutions? Im currently awaiting a response but its been 6 days since it was sent off. Ive never gotten LNER before.

My ticket was bought in December and was valid from tilbury - bradford interchange (it covered the stations inbetween? I don't know how it works to be completely honest)
My return was Bradford interchange -leeds then leeds- kings X
My journey was the 16/17 of February so there were massive cancellations and i didnt get home until gone 12.am when my train was due to leave at 4. I dont think ill apply to get compensation on those however, as it feel like a bit of a micky take. If ive gotten a fine and now im trying to get compensation


My main concern is will i get a Criminal record or have to go to court, i dont think i can go to a court room again as i suffer from quite a bit of trauma from them. Aslong as the money is under 500 and they let me set up a payment plan if i get this second job i could probably pay it off intime. If i could get any help at all i would be grateful.

 

[ainsworth74]

Welcome! We will do our best to help you out if we can.

Firstly it's a little be confused what you've told us, would you be able to upload any copies of letters or emails that you've been sent (with any personal details redacted) so we can see exactly what LNER are thinking and have accused you of?

 

[tigkr]

Welcome! We will do our best to help you out if we can.

Firstly it's a little be confused what you've told us, would you be able to upload any copies of letters or emails that you've been sent (with any personal details redacted) so we can see exactly what LNER are thinking and have accused you of?

Im unsure how to add photos but i have this i copied what was said in the email

Following our conversation, I was under the impression that you held a railcard but had left it back at (home station) and that you would be going home to find it? Purchasing tickets with railcard discount knowing that you do not possess a valid railcard is a criminal offence and as such can lead to legal proceedings.

Subsequently, your case has been forwarded to the RP investigations team to review.

Currently payment remains as £145.50, which can be paid in 3 monthly instalments, however, on the provision that no further irregularities are found by the investigations team, on this occasion, I would be prepared to reduce the amount to £24.15.

I will email you once I receive confirmation from the RP Investigations team.

I did email after asking to pay the 145 but i was sent this in response

Until the RP investigations team have finished their investigation, I am unable to confirm the settlement amount or discuss an instalment plan.

 

[skyhigh]

Im unsure how to add photos but i have this i copied what was said in the email

Following our conversation, I was under the impression that you held a railcard but had left it back at (home station) and that you would be going home to find it? Purchasing tickets with railcard discount knowing that you do not possess a valid railcard is a criminal offence and as such can lead to legal proceedings.

Subsequently, your case has been forwarded to the RP investigations team to review.

Currently payment remains as £145.50, which can be paid in 3 monthly instalments, however, on the provision that no further irregularities are found by the investigations team, on this occasion, I would be prepared to reduce the amount to £24.15.

I will email you once I receive confirmation from the RP Investigations team.

I did email after asking to pay the 145 but i was sent this in response

Until the RP investigations team have finished their investigation, I am unable to confirm the settlement amount or discuss an instalment plan.

In that case I would just wait until they get back to you. You have written confirmation they will reduce the amount if they find no further issues with your booking history. From what you've said they won't find any issues so that would be a good result and you should pay it ASAP if offered the chance.

 

[WesternLancer]

Im unsure how to add photos but i have this i copied what was said in the email

Following our conversation, I was under the impression that you held a railcard but had left it back at (home station) and that you would be going home to find it? Purchasing tickets with railcard discount knowing that you do not possess a valid railcard is a criminal offence and as such can lead to legal proceedings.

Subsequently, your case has been forwarded to the RP investigations team to review.

Currently payment remains as £145.50, which can be paid in 3 monthly instalments, however, on the provision that no further irregularities are found by the investigations team, on this occasion, I would be prepared to reduce the amount to £24.15.

I will email you once I receive confirmation from the RP Investigations team.

I did email after asking to pay the 145 but i was sent this in response

Until the RP investigations team have finished their investigation, I am unable to confirm the settlement amount or discuss an instalment plan.

OK - it looks like you are very lucky here as they sound like they are prepared to settle the whole matter for £24.15 if all goes well - see the bit I have put in bold above.

This seems to have been offered based on a verbal conversation with LNER about what happened? And they are probably taking into account the fact that you are 17 and thus they know less likely to want to take court action if you are being honest.

However this bit is the key thing:

Until the RP investigations team have finished their investigation, I am unable to confirm the settlement amount or discuss an instalment plan.

I suspect what this means is they are investigating / checking if they have any records or evidence of you having done this before ('this' being bought tickets with a 16-17 Railcard discount when you do not have the Railcard). They will do this by checking any purchase records related to the ticket you did buy and seeing if there are any other tickets you have ever bought with that Railcard discount - not just on LNER but for other train travel eg with C2C for example, because if you have, that will indicate you have not been straight with them and they will then consider the whole thing as more serious, as they will see it as a regular pattern of fare evasion.

So it is important for you to check if that has happened (you don't need to tell us here if it has, but it may help people offer you the best advice if you think you have done it)

For now you will have to wait for them to complete that investigation and get back in touch with you.

You will understand that this is different than if you had Railcard but forgot to have it with you to show on your journey (in those cases the railways have a policy of allowing you a once a year 'let off' if you forget your Railcard and can not show it, under what is called the 'Forgotten Railcard Policy' where you send them a copy afterwards to prove you actually had a Railcard - but this is different to someone buying a discounted ticket when they did not in fact have a Railcard - whether they did that by mistake - as you have explained - or deliberately as a way to reduce their fare.

If they continue to offer the option of paying £24.15 (or even £145.50) I would strongly recommend doing all you can to be able top pay that immediately, and in full if at all possible - as that will likely close the matter.

It may help to show your good intent if you can now go and buy a 16-17 Railcard now as this would mean you would be able to say to them that you have done this in order to prevent the mistake happening again. Though I note that money is tight for you and your family, so if you have to prioritise then prioritise the sum LNER want you to pay to sort this out, over buying the Railcard.

It may be that when LNER get back to you you might wish to get advice here on what to do before you reply, depending on what they say - assuming they are going to e-mail or write a letter to you.

Ref sharing copies of stuff:
when you post your reply here see at the bottom left had side of the post a small button 'attach files' with paper clip - you can use that - but be sure to not include your name or any reference numbers in any copies you attach.

 

[AlterEgo]

They’re saying basically:

“It’s £145, but we are getting the revenue team to make sure you’ve not done it before. If you haven’t done it before we will reduce it to just £24.15”

So it’s not wise to try and pay £145!! Wait for them to get back to you.

 

[tigkr]

Thankyou everyone this has been really helpful, when checking how will it be done with my bank details or in app purchases. I will wait for a response and ill probably ask for advice here.

 

[skyhigh]

Thankyou everyone this has been really helpful, when checking how will it be done with my bank details or in app purchases. I will wait for a response and ill probably ask for advice here.

App purchases.

Reading between the lines, is this maybe not the first ticket you've bought with the discount?

 

[AlterEgo]

Thankyou everyone this has been really helpful, when checking how will it be done with my bank details or in app purchases. I will wait for a response and ill probably ask for advice here.

Why would that be relevant? If you’ve done this before they will find out and you will be charged the full Anytime fare for each time you’ve done it.

Your mitigation in the first post makes no sense and I advise you to say as little as possible to LNER.

 

[tigkr]

App purchases.

Reading between the lines, is this maybe not the first ticket you've bought with the discount?

The other time was when they fined me for it already when I didn't know what a rail card was.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 28 Feb 2023 ==

Why would that be relevant? If you’ve done this before they will find out and you will be charged the full Anytime fare for each time you’ve done it.

Your mitigation in the first post makes no sense and I advise you to say as little as possible to LNER.

The only other time i had received and payed i think it was 20 pounds it was decmber 2021

Thought i should add that was done on my card i didnt have the app at the time

 

[AlterEgo]

The other time was when they fined me for it already when I didn't know what a rail card was.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 28 Feb 2023 ==


The only other time i had received and payed i think it was 20 pounds it was decmber 2021

Thought i should add that was done on my card i didnt have the app at the time

Did LNER issue you a penalty fare or was it another operator?

Did that penalty fare not actually teach you what a railcard was? You mention you bought the discounted (half price ticket) thinking you’d be able to prove your age on the train, but you’re also aware a railcard has to be bought and paid for, because you said your mum would sort it out once she’d been paid. Why then did you travel without having a railcard? You don’t need to answer this but you should be aware it harms your defence.

 

[WesternLancer]

The other time was when they fined me for it already when I didn't know what a rail card was.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 28 Feb 2023 ==


The only other time i had received and payed i think it was 20 pounds it was decmber 2021

Thought i should add that was done on my card i didnt have the app at the time

Hi - sorry to press you but it's hard to understand what you are trying to explain and it's really important to know, so you get the best advice - can you be clearer in your posts - so we don't mix up Railcards with Bank cards for example!

Also - (I know it is confusing) but you need to be sure what you mean by 'fine' (that is why people are asking for copies of any paperwork)

Do you mean by "when they fined me for it already" the UFN for £145.50 ? That is not a fine, I think that is an 'Unpaid Fares Notice (UFN)' - that sum is the Anytime Single Train Fare £145.50 between London and Bradford - it's not a fine - it is the cost of a ticket at the full adult price as they deemed that you had no valid ticket on the train because you had no Railcard to show that would have made the ticket you had bought valid. Without the Railcard you are considered to have no ticket at all by the person who checked your ticket on the train.

The only other time i had received and payed i think it was 20 pounds it was decmber 2021

Can you explain better what you mean by this - I mean received and paid what? £20 for what? Was this a Penalty Fare that you received and paid?

What they are going to do is look at any records they can access of train tickets you have bought (so unless they are tickets bought with cash you should presume they can access them) between any station and any other station to see if they have been bought with a Railcard Discount applied when you did not have a Railcard. They will also look to see if you have any records of other things like Penalty Fares in the past.

This is to check you have not bought other tickets that you were not paying the correct fare for.

You need to know that all the different train companies and the companies that sell tickets will exchange information to check on this stuff - so that is what they will be doing now.

 

[tigkr]

Can you explain better what you mean by this - I mean received and paid what? £20 for what?

back in December of 2021 i moved out of london. I was on the c2c for one of the first times and purchased a 16-17 ticket without a railcard ( i didnt know what a railcard was at this point and a person i met at my college told me to buy a 16-17 train ticket instead of a normal one for a cheaper journey) and the ticket inspector said i had to pay 20£ for having the wrong ticket as i didn't own a railcard and then he took away my return also. Me and my mother did call up and inquire they spoke to her about how the tailcard works, thus where i learned of it in the first place. I dont know what kind of ticket this would be i assumed it was a fine. My apologies im not the best with the way the train penalties work.

 

[WesternLancer]

back in December of 2021 i moved out of london. I was on the c2c for one of the first times and purchased a 16-17 ticket without a railcard ( i didnt know what a railcard was at this point and a person i met at my college told me to buy a 16-17 train ticket instead of a normal one for a cheaper journey) and the ticket inspector said i had to pay 20£ for having the wrong ticket as i didn't own a railcard and then he took away my return also. Me and my mother did call up and inquire they spoke to her about how the tailcard works, thus where i learned of it in the first place. I dont know what kind of ticket this would be i assumed it was a fine. My apologies im not the best with the way the train penalties work.

Thanks - don't worry that you don't understand how the penalties work - it's not simple - and people here are here to help explain and give advice on that.
So it sounds like in December 2021 you were perhaps issued with a Penalty Fare of £20 for having bought a ticket for a trip on c2c with aa Railcard Discount to which you were not entitled due to not having bought the Railcard.

Did they take your name and address? If so LNER may well / probably make the match because December 2021 is not that long ago. But if they do not ask you about it, do not tell them anything about it either.

The problem now is that you have done the same thing again with regard to your trip to Bradford. So to the railway company it looks like you did not 'learn your lesson' when paying the £20 on that previous time. If LNER can see this on your record it means they are going to be less likely to settle for the sum that they have suggested - but they may well do so.

So I think all you can do for now is wait and see what LNER come back and say to you when they have looked into it - then head back here for more advice when you need it.

Whilst you wait for LNER to contact you again I would now be doing the following:

- Save up money so you pay what they ask for as soon as possible
- Consider explaining what has happened to your mum - so she can help you if needs be
- Buy a 16-17 Railcard so that you can make reduced price train journeys in future legitimately with no risk of this happening again
- Also - do not ignore anything the Railway company sends you (either by e-mail or by paper letter).

Head back here for more advice as and when you need it.

 

[Haywain]

Did LNER issue you a penalty fare or was it another operator?

LNER do not issue Penalty Fares and never have done.

 

[WesternLancer]

LNER do not issue Penalty Fares and never have done.

I think the OP subsequently clarified that this relates to a trip on c2c, but was not clear about what it was called that they had to pay £20 for.

 

[tigkr]

Just thought I'd make an update,i apologise as I've been in hospital since February the day this was posted and have had no access any technology devices.
I was told by my family and health professionals that the fine was kept at 145 as i had no previous history aside from the c2c incident and they payed it for me as i lost my job. I'm unsure if this is true however they won't tell me much more so that's all the information i have in the way of a conclusion, I've only gotten home in Sunday so i apologise. Thank you to everyone who assisted me.

 

[ainsworth74]

Gosh! I'm obviously very sorry to hear that you've been so unwell and hope you're on the mend. But thanks for coming back after all this time to give us an update none the less.