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UK switching to electric vehicles discussion

Bald Rick

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Plus, how often are we firing up our coal power stations these days? More and more electricity generated is green every year, and coal has been virtually eliminated and used only in emergencies.. and the 'switch off and save' schemes may adapt to make them unnecessary entirely.

over the past year to today, coal generation has averaged 440MW. That is one twentieth of that produced by wind (8.72GW)

Gas is indeed still the largest at 12.61GW.

However I predict that possibly as soon as the 2024 calendar year wind will generate an average of 10GW, add in 1.4GW of solar and these two renewable sources alone will generate more than gas.
 
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jon0844

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Citroën has launched the e-C3 in India. Basically the same shell as a ICE C3 but with an electric motor. Has a pretty basic interior, with a few upgrades on ICE vehicle (and wireless Android Auto/Car Play).

Supposedly capable of 327Km but not sure how their measures work.

Only available in selected areas of India, but the base model is under £12k. I don't know about how they may add on fees for registration and delivery, or if that's included.

Clearly we'll be charged more if and when it comes here, and the Indian C3 had a lower spec than European models, but this might be the car I was talking about to sit between a Citroën Ami and something like the MG4.
 

paul1609

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over the past year to today, coal generation has averaged 440MW. That is one twentieth of that produced by wind (8.72GW)

Gas is indeed still the largest at 12.61GW.

However I predict that possibly as soon as the 2024 calendar year wind will generate an average of 10GW, add in 1.4GW of solar and these two renewable sources alone will generate more than gas.
It's hard to predict but there are several reasons why that may not be so. Whether wind will reach 10GW largely depends on surprise surprise the weather but its quite likely that Gas Generation itself will grow as it will largely replace the remaining coal input, whatever the remaining nuclear capacity is and the cost of imports from Europe which themselves are dependant on French Nuclear Output. There is very much a limitation now on peak wind generation due to issues with frequency stability on the grid in the event of a major failure.
 

Ediswan

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There is very much a limitation now on peak wind generation due to issues with frequency stability on the grid in the event of a major failure.
Do you have any links describing that ? I having ongoing interest in things which affect grid frequency/stability.
 

Bald Rick

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It's hard to predict but there are several reasons why that may not be so. Whether wind will reach 10GW largely depends on surprise surprise the weather but its quite likely that Gas Generation itself will grow as it will largely replace the remaining coal input, whatever the remaining nuclear capacity is and the cost of imports from Europe which themselves are dependant on French Nuclear Output. There is very much a limitation now on peak wind generation due to issues with frequency stability on the grid in the event of a major failure.

I agree it’s hard to predict, but…

1) Theres not much coal left to replace
2) NG are doing loads of grid stability work
3) the French (and Dutch, Belgians, Germany, Danish) are furiously adding wind capacity too, which will help their supply, and by extension, our imports.
4) the Viking link 1.4GW interconnector with Denmark will go live in 2024.

Bringing us back on topic, one of the biggest factors in whether gas generation goes up or reduces will be U.K. demand. And one factor in that will be EV take up. Between now and the end of next year there will be another 700,000 EVs on the road (at least), which at average mileage / consumption will need an extra 0.2GW (average) through the year. This is more likely to be higher at night and lower in the day, and night is when we have more spare wind capacity, on average, and therefore more likely to see it used than paid to not generate.
 

MotCO

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I have just been watching an interesting video on an EV towing a caravan, and how much the range was reduced by. I accept it was a big caravan, but it was also a big car towing it with a normal range of around 300 miles. (
)

Two facts emerged:
1. The range with the caravan was half that without the caravan. It therefore means that any long trip on holiday (e.g. London to Devon) will require one or two charges en route.
2. And therein lies the second problem. Car chargers at motorway services are situated in the car parks which makes access difficult, and the parking bays are only one car length long. Therefore to charge a car, you would need to unhitch your caravan, and leave it somewhere before you can charge up.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

It's hard to predict but there are several reasons why that may not be so. Whether wind will reach 10GW largely depends on surprise surprise the weather but its quite likely that Gas Generation itself will grow as it will largely replace the remaining coal input, whatever the remaining nuclear capacity is and the cost of imports from Europe which themselves are dependant on French Nuclear Output. There is very much a limitation now on peak wind generation due to issues with frequency stability on the grid in the event of a major failure.
While there may be plans to increase the provision of wind power, there may be a problem getting that power transferred to the grid. The Telegraph https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2023/02/23/how-britains-sluggish-energy-grid-fell-asleep-wheel/ reports that "In his recent review of the Government’s net zero ambitions, Tory MP and former energy minister Chris Skidmore warned that “slow, ponderous bureaucracy” around grid connections was hampering the green transition, holding up firms who were gunning to add their power plants to the network.

At the same time, ministers and MPs are being regularly told that the delays are now the single biggest barrier facing renewable developers. Many companies wanting to connect are dismayed to learn they will have to wait until the 2030s."


Up and down the country, the story is the same. Wind farms, solar farms, batteries and even waste power plants – none can get connected to the electricity grid fast enough.
This is a big problem, for obvious reasons, when the Government wants to make Britain’s power network “carbon neutral” by 2035. Particularly when experts say that target is already a colossal challenge.
Now, against a growing drumbeat of complaints as the issue becomes more politically fraught, the former state monopoly that owns and operates the grid in England and Wales is scrambling to demonstrate it has not fallen asleep at the wheel.
It may be too late to soothe Westminster. In his recent review of the Government’s net zero ambitions, Tory MP and former energy minister Chris Skidmore warned that “slow, ponderous bureaucracy” around grid connections was hampering the green transition, holding up firms who were gunning to add their power plants to the network.
At the same time, ministers and MPs are being regularly told that the delays are now the single biggest barrier facing renewable developers. Many companies wanting to connect are dismayed to learn they will have to wait until the 2030s.
“If you talk to anyone in the clean energy sector, that is all they want to talk to you about,” Merlin Hyman, chief executive of energy research centre Regen, told MPs last month.


National Grid on Wednesday announced interim plans that it says will finally start to tackle connection delays in the short term, while it is working with regulators on a solution for the problem in the long run.
According to the company, up to 70pc of applications to connect to the grid ultimately come to nothing, meaning that the current queue of more than 600 projects is unnecessarily cluttered.


The Grid wants to overhaul the system so that companies putting in applications have to show real progress on their schemes – for example a planning permission – to keep their places.
But while it hammers out reforms with regulator Ofgem, it is proposing a new two-step application process in the interim which will screen out or delay projects that are getting nowhere after a nine-month period.
Julian Leslie, head of networks and chief engineer of National Grid ESO, says: “We’re evolving our network to make it fit for the future, to deliver net zero and keep clean power flowing to the growing number of homes and businesses across Great Britain, fuelling our economy.
“We recognise the frustration some of our connections customers are experiencing and through this package of short-term initiatives and longer-term reforms we are determined to address the challenges with the current process, which was not designed to operate the sheer scale of applications we are receiving today.”
The efforts come as the issue is beginning to attract mainstream political attention, at a time when the FTSE 100 company’s role in the electricity system is already under growing scrutiny.
National Grid faced criticism in August 2019 for its handling of the worst blackout for decades, which left a million homes without power and commuters stranded on trains.
Yet the role of the electricity grid is set to become more, not less important in the coming decades.
Under plans to make the grid net zero, Britain’s total electricity generation capacity will have to rise from about 104 gigawatts today to 248 gigawatts by 2035.
This is to accommodate the huge shift of demand towards electricity, as consumers ditch petrol fuelled cars and gas heating for electrically-powered vehicles and heat pumps at home.
Phil McNally, an electricity markets expert and research fellow at University College London, says the Government’s target to make the grid carbon-free in just 12 years’ time is already a big ask – but there is no hope whatsoever if this red tape issue isn't solved.




“I think the target is achievable if the Government acts to remove these barriers,” he says.
“In terms of the renewables rollout – that is, offshore wind, solar, maybe onshore wind – there's confidence that those technologies can deploy at the scale required.
“But there's a whole array of administrative barriers that one hundred percent put that target at risk. They might seem insignificant by themselves but when they come together, they can really threaten the targets in terms of timelines and the overall scale of deployment.”
Long planning system delays and demands for cumbersome environmental assessments for each project are also dragging on delivery times. Industry body RenewableUK claims offshore wind farms can now be built three to five years more quickly than it takes to connect them to the Grid.
McNally says National Grid is often unfairly blamed on its own when the problem is really a multifaceted one that requires action from Ofgem, smaller distribution networks and the Government too.
“You always see a lot of finger-pointing, but primarily what you need is a statement of intent from the Government and a taskforce set up with all the relevant parties, as soon as possible,” he adds.
A proper fix will require not just regulatory tinkering but colossal investment, however, with £3.1bn of network upgrades planned over the next five years alone.
And grid capacity is an issue that is only set to become more acute for the National Grid, especially if Keir Starmer’s Labour Party wins the next election.
As part of his plans to ramp up green energy investment, Starmer has vowed to make the electricity network carbon neutral by 2030 – five years before the Government’s own, highly ambitious target.
A Labour source says the party no longer favours expensive nationalisations of the network, although National Grid’s electricity system operator (ESO) division is set to be brought into public ownership next year anyway under the Conservatives.
Starmer and Ed Miliband, the shadow energy secretary, are instead said to be laser-focused on working with the private sector to push through changes that will allow green energy projects to race through the planning system as quickly as possible.
That is why, no doubt, National Grid is keen to show it has no intention of standing in the way.
 
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jon0844

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Yes, it does seem towing is a problem for EVs - and likewise the means to charge in many (most?) places, bar perhaps caravan parks.

I have to ask though; is caravanning still a big thing? On my last holiday to Cornwall, in August, there were relatively few on the road. I know that's very anecdotal, but I think I found the same when driving in Norfolk too.
 

Class800

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Given the significant obstacles involved with using electric cars and the massive change in infrastructure that would be required do you think it’s practical.

I’m especially thinking of those that live in blocks of flats that have no choice but to park on the street or those who do long distance commuting and it may not be practical to stop mid journey to charge up.
Answering OP question, in a word 'no'
 

stuu

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I have to ask though; is caravanning still a big thing? On my last holiday to Cornwall, in August, there were relatively few on the road. I know that's very anecdotal, but I think I found the same when driving in Norfolk too.
As a resident of the South west I do think there has been a bit of a decline, or maybe it is that caravan users are mostly older now and the peak spreads away from the school holidays more than in the past. There seem, anecdotally, to be a lot more camper vans than in the past though
 

Bald Rick

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I have just been watching an interesting video on an EV towing a caravan, and how much the range was reduced by. I accept it was a big caravan, but it was also a big car towing it with a normal range of around 300 miles. ( )

Two facts emerged:
1. The range with the caravan was half that without the caravan. It therefore means that any long trip on holiday (e.g. London to Devon) will require one or two charges en route.
2. And therein lies the second problem. Car chargers at motorway services are situated in the car parks which makes access difficult, and the parking bays are only one car length long. Therefore to charge a car, you would need to unhitch your caravan, and leave it somewhere before you can charge up.

What we have learned through this is that for the <1% of motorists who own a caravan, and use it for journeys of more than about 150 miles, an EV may not be the right thing for them, right now. Perhaps 1 in 200 motorists. That’s hardly a damning indictment on the principle of EVs.



While there may be plans to increase the provision of wind power, there may be a problem getting that power transferred to the grid. The Telegraph https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2023/02/23/how-britains-sluggish-energy-grid-fell-asleep-wheel/ reports that "In his recent review of the Government’s net zero ambitions, Tory MP and former energy minister Chris Skidmore warned that “slow, ponderous bureaucracy” around grid connections was hampering the green transition, holding up firms who were gunning to add their power plants to the network.

At the same time, ministers and MPs are being regularly told that the delays are now the single biggest barrier facing renewable developers. Many companies wanting to connect are dismayed to learn they will have to wait until the 2030s."

This is poor reporting from the Telegraph, and what I’ve come to expect from them now on this subject. The reason some renewable developers are facing long waits for grid connections is simply that there are so many projects in front of them in the queue. All the big wind schemes planned for delivery up to 2028 (and many beyond) have confirmed grid connections, as does the X Links project from Morocco. That’s 30GW of new wind power alone. It’s really not a problem in the context of supply for EVs.
 

Bletchleyite

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What we have learned through this is that for the <1% of motorists who own a caravan, and use it for journeys of more than about 150 miles, an EV may not be the right thing for them, right now. That’s hardly a damning incitement on the principle of EVs.

One thing I've found in this thread (and the Forum generally) is that there's a general attitude of "X wouldn't work for <RUK standard minority with all the protected characteristics and more> so it's a bad idea".

I'll be quite honest - my current travel pattern wouldn't really suit an EV very well (though I could possibly make it work at a push), but I expect it will in future, plus I don't buy new cars as I don't want the depreciation hit and don't do PCPs so the used market needs to develop a bit first. My current line is that my next car will likely be petrol but the one after almost certainly EV; I thought the used market and charging network would have developed enough by now but it hasn't.

That doesn't make EVs rubbish.
 

dgl

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As I have said not being able to change at home is what caused my step-mum to haven't ask to change her Motability car from an id.3 back to an ICE vehicle and has recently taken delivery of a Seat Arona, it's somewhat a lower spec but they had to have what was in the country, and after delays in cancelling a previous order for a Corsa (they couldn't wait in the end) they literally had a choice of two Arona's (down from 11) though given they live in Southampton and the cars were at the port delivery was swift!
They've had to get used to going back to a pure petrol vehicle as they had a hybrid before, so getting used to filling up with petrol again and my step-mum having to remember there is no regen, my Dad was saying she nearly had an accident having forgotten how a regular brake works and that the car isn't going to slow down enough on it's own!
 

MotCO

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What we have learned through this is that for the <1% of motorists who own a caravan, and use it for journeys of more than about 150 miles, an EV may not be the right thing for them, right now. Perhaps 1 in 200 motorists. That’s hardly a damning indictment on the principle of EVs.
I agree; the point I was making (obviously poorly :'(), was that charging points don't suit all vehicles and that provision needs to be made for the larger vehicles (including light commercial) and towing vehicles, whether it is a caravan, horsebox, trailer etc. Maybe a 'drive-through' configuration would be better.
 

Bletchleyite

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I agree; the point I was making (obviously poorly :'(), was that charging points don't suit all vehicles and that provision needs to be made for the larger vehicles (including light commercial) and towing vehicles, whether it is a caravan, horsebox, trailer etc. Maybe a 'drive-through' configuration would be better.

In the end there'll need to be one at at least 50% of spaces at the services. You won't quite need all of them as someone just popping in for the loo and/or a takeaway coffee won't bother.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

They've had to get used to going back to a pure petrol vehicle as they had a hybrid before, so getting used to filling up with petrol again and my step-mum having to remember there is no regen, my Dad was saying she nearly had an accident having forgotten how a regular brake works and that the car isn't going to slow down enough on it's own!

Regrettably that sounds like someone who should give up driving, as if they can't cope with the different engine braking/regen characteristics of different vehicles then they probably can't adapt quick enough to handle an emergency situation (e.g. if regen failed to think to just use the brake).

That aside, one thing I'm surprised we haven't seen* is plug-in series hybrids that can run the engine faster when running at constant speed e.g. on a motorway and put some charge in that way. While carbon emissions reduction is desirable, with a not-fully-decarbonised grid it isn't really the priority. The priority is to reduce emissions like particulates and NOx in urban areas, and that could be very well achieved with this kind of hybrid which could use petrol on the motorway (running the engine a bit faster to charge the battery when the full power isn't needed) and by GPS could turn the engine off in urban areas unless the battery was so low it was going to stop, plus it could optionally be plugged in to extend the urban zero emissions range. This sort of thing, a bit like the TfW 230s, would allow a far quicker move to zero emissions zones in city centres, bringing significant benefit.

PHEVs sort of do it, but these require plugging in - my concept would also allow charging from petrol on long trips when away from towns and via regen. When cruising at 70 you're using a fraction of the engine power, so it could be sped up and charge the battery. If you then floored the accelerator the power would be redirected to the traction motors instead.

* Well, we sort of have, the Prius, but that isn't a genuine series hybrid (though can run a very short distance at low speed on battery only), has quite a small battery and can't be plugged in. What the Prius more does is an earlier objective - using a smallish battery to improve efficiency of engine use and allow a smaller engine than otherwise. I believe the "Boris bus" is vaguely similar.
 
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trebor79

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The reason some renewable developers are facing long waits for grid connections is simply that there are so many projects in front of them in the queue.
This isn't completely true. The company I (currently) work for has had planning consent for a wind farm in Wales for years. Project hasn't gone ahead because there's no grid capacity - and the planning consent to add that grid capacity has been tied up in objection and environmental surveys for years with no resolution in sight.
Really as a country we need to get rid of a lot of this red tape, it's a wonder ANYTHING ever gets delivered!
 

Mawkie

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This isn't completely true. The company I (currently) work for has had planning consent for a wind farm in Wales for years. Project hasn't gone ahead because there's no grid capacity - and the planning consent to add that grid capacity has been tied up in objection and environmental surveys for years with no resolution in sight.
Really as a country we need to get rid of a lot of this red tape, it's a wonder ANYTHING ever gets delivered!
The 2008 Planning Act did speed up the decision making process on these large infrastructure projects, although that does seem to have slowed lately.

The National Infrastructure Commission has been tasked (this month!) with investigating how to speed up the process further and increase certainty that projects can go ahead.

Maybe the Red Tape is finally going to be cut?

https://www.gov.uk/government/publi...mmission-new-study-on-infrastructure-planning

"Chancellor and Minister for Local Government and Building Safety commission new study on infrastructure planning The Chancellor commissions the National Infrastructure Commission (NIC) to provide recommendations on the infrastructure planning system, in particular the role of National Policy Statements (NPSs)."
 

JamesT

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* Well, we sort of have, the Prius, but that isn't a genuine series hybrid (though can run a very short distance at low speed on battery only), has quite a small battery and can't be plugged in. What the Prius more does is an earlier objective - using a smallish battery to improve efficiency of engine use and allow a smaller engine than otherwise. I believe the "Boris bus" is vaguely similar.
There has been a Plug-In version of the Prius for about a decade now which can do all those things. But as the Prius was discontinued in the UK last year and the other Toyota PHEV (the RAV4) has gone end of sale awaiting a new model, I guess we can ignore them for the purposes of considering new Toyotas on sale.
 

Bletchleyite

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There has been a Plug-In version of the Prius for about a decade now which can do all those things. But as the Prius was discontinued in the UK last year and the other Toyota PHEV (the RAV4) has gone end of sale awaiting a new model, I guess we can ignore them for the purposes of considering new Toyotas on sale.

Interesting, thanks. I wonder why that concept didn't really take off? It would seem ideal to reduce pollution at the point of use in urban areas which is the priority for now until the grid is more "greened". It needn't even have the GPS part if it just used electricity only when driving up to say 35mph unless the battery was low.

I can get why one car doesn't suit everyone (a lot of people wouldn't buy a Prius just because they wouldn't buy a black cab - they're more associated with taxis than family cars, a bit like it took Tesla rather than the Nissan Leaf to make BEVs take off) but the concept seems solid in terms of being able to roll out ULEZs and ZEZs a lot quicker, and Priuses have been around for ages now.
 

Bald Rick

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This isn't completely true. The company I (currently) work for has had planning consent for a wind farm in Wales for years. Project hasn't gone ahead because there's no grid capacity - and the planning consent to add that grid capacity has been tied up in objection and environmental surveys for years with no resolution in sight.
Really as a country we need to get rid of a lot of this red tape, it's a wonder ANYTHING ever gets delivered!

Fair enough. Although that doesn’t detract from the point that there’s an awful lot of new projects out there with grid connections confirmed.
 

trebor79

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I can get why one car doesn't suit everyone (a lot of people wouldn't buy a Prius just because they wouldn't buy a black cab - they're more associated with taxis than family cars, a bit like it took Tesla rather than the Nissan Leaf to make BEVs take off) but the concept seems solid in terms of being able to roll out ULEZs and ZEZs a lot quicker, and Priuses have been around for ages now.
Tesla took off when Leaf didn't because:
Early Leafs in particular were very low range cars and unsuitable for even medium length journeys
There was hardly any public charging infrastructure.
The early Leafs looked absolute naff - not a desirable car at all.

Then Tesla come along, trading on the cachet of the Roadster which although not practical had a celebrity fan base (I remember a Jay Leno article extolling it's virtues). The model S was a decent looking car, with a totally new take on interior design. More crucially it was large, practical, had a long enough range to be truly useful and Tesla rapidly built the charging infrastructure to support real world use.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

Fair enough. Although that doesn’t detract from the point that there’s an awful lot of new projects out there with grid connections confirmed.
The grid connection might be "confirmed" as in the pipeline to be provided, but if the network operator then has it's hands tied by planning red tape it won't happen.
 

AM9

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While carbon emissions reduction is desirable, with a not-fully-decarbonised grid it isn't really the priority. The priority is to reduce emissions like particulates and NOx in urban areas, and that could be very well achieved with this kind of hybrid which could use petrol on the motorway (running the engine a bit faster to charge the battery when the full power isn't needed) and by GPS could turn the engine off in urban areas unless the battery was so low it was going to stop, plus it could optionally be plugged in to extend the urban zero emissions range.
I wouldn't agree with a reduced emphasis on vehicle decarbonisation because the grid isn't fully dcecarbonised. Energy on the grid (even from coal) has a far lower carbon impact than anything generated by a small petrol or diesel vehicle and a facility that you are suggesting wouldn't just be used as you suggest. I can imagine many motorists that would just not bother to charge their vehicle when it suits them, resulting in a much higher net carbon profile. Just look at the abuse of the hybrid exemption for many years, mainly exploited by taxi/private hire drivers whose vehicles had little or no capability to run on battery, - wherever they were. Thankfully, that abused loophole has now been closed and only genuine zero emission vehicles qualify.
 

Bletchleyite

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I wouldn't agree with a reduced emphasis on vehicle decarbonisation because the grid isn't fully dcecarbonised.

I think you'd certainly get better health-related quick wins by doing that than trying to go straight to EVs when there are a lot of societal challenges still to work out. The ship may now have sailed because the transition to BEV has already started, but a strong move towards hybrids with battery running below 35mph significantly reducing particulate pollution in urban areas could have happened 10 years ago or even more.

If it'd been done 10 years ago, well over 50% of cars on the road would be zero-emission in urban areas and charging infrastructure would by now be better developed. That would have saved at least tens of thousands of lives and improved quality of life for a load more people in urban areas.

The abused loophole you mention should simply never have existed and should have been closed more quickly.
 

Bletchleyite

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Because little progress has been made, because it goes against consumer habit and how our economy is structured, because of British reserve and inertia

The number of EVs on the road seems to disagree.

They won't suit everyone yet (I've already said I don't think I'm ready for one yet*) but in due course they will.

* The main issue for me is the number of long distance journeys I do for outdoor activities, camping and similar, to the Lakes, North Wales and the Peak, where charging facilities at the destination are very unlikely to be provided any time soon, which means I'd need to sit around on the return journey for a full charge rather than a top-up, lengthening my journey back by an hour or more when it's potentially already getting late. If I normally stayed in hotels on long distance trips where charging provision is more likely nearby this would be less of an issue. A PHEV might suit me well as I could run electric locally and petrol for these longer trips, but there are few on the market and they're expensive.
 

trebor79

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[hybrids with small batteries]
If it'd been done 10 years ago, well over 50% of cars on the road would be zero-emission in urban areas and charging infrastructure would by now be better developed.
I'm not so sure the charging network would have usefully developed for full BEV's in that scenario. Hybrids with small batteries don't need (and usually can't achieve) a high power charge. So you'd have ended up with a load of 22kW charge posts concentrated in the cities. They are absolutely useless for long journeys with a BEV, unless used as a destination charger. En route provision of high powered DC chargers would have been even further behind where it is now.
The number of EVs on the road seems to disagree.

They won't suit everyone yet (I've already said I don't think I'm ready for one yet*) but in due course they will.

* The main issue for me is the number of long distance journeys I do for outdoor activities, camping and similar, to the Lakes, North Wales and the Peak, where charging facilities at the destination are very unlikely to be provided any time soon, which means I'd need to sit around on the return journey for a full charge rather than a top-up, lengthening my journey back by an hour or more when it's potentially already getting late. If I normally stayed in hotels on long distance trips where charging provision is more likely nearby this would be less of an issue. A PHEV might suit me well as I could run electric locally and petrol for these longer trips, but there are few on the market and they're expensive.
You do realise that cars such as the Kia EV6, Hyundai Ioniq 5 and Ioniq 6 can charge at over 250kW. 10%-80% charge can be as quick as 20 minute, and in the case of the Ioniq 6 would take you another 250 miles at motorway speed (assuming you fit 18" wheel rather than the 20" which is the only option offered in the UK for some daft reason)?
Even stuff like the VW iD range will charge at 150kW.

By the time you've had a cup of tea and whatever delightful food is on offer at the service station, and emptied your bladder, the car will be good to go.
 

StKeverne1497

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Yes, it does seem towing is a problem for EVs - and likewise the means to charge in many (most?) places, bar perhaps caravan parks.
I had this fantastic idea a while back when the only EV which was actually rated for towing was one of the Teslas (all the others on the market at the time said "Towing capacity: 0kg"). Surprised no-one's tried it already, though there are "issues". However, here's the big idea...

...why not put a battery in the caravan too?

Admission - I have never owned nor towed a caravan. It isn't really my ideal kind of holiday, particularly with the up-front expense and having it sitting unused on your driveway for most of the time. That aside:
  • When you are towing, the battery in the caravan extends your range so the car which does 300 miles on its own can still do 300 miles when towing. Let's face it, going on holiday and having to stop every 100 miles to charge up is going to be tedious
  • When you are not towing, you don't have to lug around the extra weight of the battery
  • A battery in the caravan might contribute to its stability by lowering the centre of gravity
  • When not in use you can plug the caravan battery into your house to use as a house battery (assuming you keep your caravan at home)
  • When camping you can use the caravan battery to provide more than just some low power convenience 230V outlets - it would quite easily run a kettle or an oven, making gas-free caravanning a real possibility
On the downside
  • It's extra weight in the caravan so there's a little efficiency trade-off, and there may be issues with licencing the driver
  • How the heck do you charge at a typical campsite which struggles to provide 16A hookups at the moment? Are we going to expect campsites to upgrade their incoming supplies?
  • You would have to get car manufacturers to agree a connection standard so that you can just plug the battery in to the back of the car in exactly the same way you do with the lights
  • There might be some conversion required as I know different cars use different voltages for their battery packs, though this one is not insurmountable with modern electronic converters
In fact you could (with a lot more thinking) go one stage further and put an electric motor in the caravan as well as the battery. Turn the pair into a kind of Electric Multiple Unit!
  • A motor in the caravan could provide a little extra help meaning less effect on the car's performance
  • It could also help with regeneration
  • Once at the campsite there's the possibility that you could unhitch the caravan and drive it using a pendant - much easier to get it in the right place if it's something you don't do regularly (I note that it's already possible to get caravan motors which run off the leisure battery and either just drive the jockey wheel or actually drive the main wheels)
The big downside of that, of course is
  • Now you not only need a connection standard for the battery to the car, but you also need a control standard so that the car's electronics can drive the motors safely. It'd be utterly frustrating to end up with a mish-mash of standards (as with trains!) where Teslas can only tow Elddis caravans while Volkswagens can only tow Swift!
But an upside of requiring the control standard might be
  • The car can accurately operate the caravan's brakes, rather than relying on the towbar system I believe is still common. This could help avoid common accidents when towing such as snaking and jacknifing

You can of course extend the idea to larger trailers, horseboxes, hot dog stands etc. etc.

Go on then, what's wrong with my idea?
 

Bald Rick

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If it'd been done 10 years ago, well over 50% of cars on the road would be zero-emission in urban areas and charging infrastructure would by now be better developed. That would have saved at least tens of thousands of lives and improved quality of life for a load more people in urban areas.

To be fair, with the Euro6 regs in place for 8 years now, and many vehicles meeting them beforehand, particulate emissions in cities are much, much lower now than even a couple of years ago. In London half the taxi fleet is (effectively) zero emission now, and with buses following suit that is a big chunk of the issue. London’s air is markedly and noticeably much better than it was.
 

trebor79

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Joined
8 Mar 2018
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4,892
I had this fantastic idea a while back when the only EV which was actually rated for towing was one of the Teslas (all the others on the market at the time said "Towing capacity: 0kg"). Surprised no-one's tried it already, though there are "issues". However, here's the big idea...

...why not put a battery in the caravan too?

[snip]
Go on then, what's wrong with my idea?
If the battery is going to be of a similar size to the car, it's going to cost circa £10k - a lot of cash for something that will be used very occassionally. And it'll spend the majority of it's life idle, depending upon the battery chemistry and state of charge it's stored it, that will not be good for its longevity.
The caravan is going to need to be beefed up to cope with the weight of a half tonne battery.

That's before you get to things like electrical safety, charging etc etc.
 

Bletchleyite

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By the time you've had a cup of tea and whatever delightful food is on offer at the service station, and emptied your bladder, the car will be good to go.

That's 20-30 minutes additional on my return journey, though, and that assumes I can get a charger and it's working. I'd normally stop in the middle of a journey, not at the start, and a long journey like that will leave me near empty on arrival and parking in a location (e.g. a rural walkers' car park or a campsite) where there will likely never be chargers and thus basically having to stop at Forton or Burton for a charge before even being able to head back south from the Lakes (say).

As I say, it'll get there, it's just not there now for me. Another 5 years (I'm about to change my car) and I think it will be there for me (plus ranges will have improved further with better battery tech, better designed vehicles on dedicated EV platforms rather than just rehashed ICE cars with limited battery space, and charging will be even more widely available).

If I lived in the North West or even the Midlands that objection wouldn't really apply. But as with many things I think positive zealotry (ignoring valid objections) can be as bad as negative zealotry - like with so many things (e.g. the EU) the centre ground is normally where sense lies. An EV would be suitable for all my local journeys, certainly, and many middle distance ones like to the Peak, but I do quite a lot of long ones without charging at my destination, and I can't afford two cars, so one has to suit both.
 

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