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Should HS2 and NPR have used Manchester Victoria.

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Arkeeos

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I was wondering about the decision for Manchester Piccadilly to the location of HS2 and NPR outside of the fact that it is Manchester's main station but was that the only thought given to where to place HS2 and NPR?

Manchester Victoria is on a better alignment, it can be approached by HS2 without any tunneling, Through services could be provided for Liverpool -> Manchester -> Leeds.

And its not like there's no precedent for placing a High Speed railway station not at the primary station, something similar was done in Osaka with Shin Osaka which is moderate distance away from the main Osaka station.
 
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JonathanH

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Manchester Victoria is on a better alignment, it can be approached by HS2 without any tunneling, Through services could be provided for Liverpool -> Manchester -> Leeds.
What spare land is available at Victoria?

Piccadilly has the advantage that land exists in its Eastern side to accommodate the HS2 station.

Alignment doesn't really come into it if there is no space for the HS2 station.

Are you suggesting that HS2 trains approach Victoria from Earlestown and through Eccles on the existing lines?
 

The Planner

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I was wondering about the decision for Manchester Piccadilly to the location of HS2 and NPR outside of the fact that it is Manchester's main station but was that the only thought given to where to place HS2 and NPR?

Manchester Victoria is on a better alignment, it can be approached by HS2 without any tunneling, Through services could be provided for Liverpool -> Manchester -> Leeds.

And its not like there's no precedent for placing a High Speed railway station not at the primary station, something similar was done in Osaka with Shin Osaka which is moderate distance away from the main Osaka station.
Better alignment in which respects?
 

Arkeeos

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What spare land is available at Victoria?

Piccadilly has the advantage that land exists in its Eastern side to accommodate the HS2 station.

Alignment doesn't really come into it if there is no space for the HS2 station.

Are you suggesting that HS2 trains approach Victoria from Earlestown and through Eccles on the existing lines?
You could compulsory purchase the AO arena and some of the surrounding buildings like the ones facing the river Irwell, which should (at least it appears) give you enough room for the required platforms.

There's room for quad tracking along the northern city line -due to previous quad tracking- until it reaches the M602 alignment, where it can follow the M602 either at grade by removing the hard shoulders or on a viaduct, then the rest to Victoria should be completable with a viaduct. HS2 would continue paralleling the WCML to south of Wigan and this would branch off that route presumabley near Culcheth.
Better alignment in which respects?
Better in that it allows for through services, I think just geographically a east west station makes more sense in Manchester given where the WCML is and where Liverpool, Leeds and Scotland are, while the current alignment is really only for use by trains for London, and east west alignment could be used by more places. The "Manchester trinity station" in the 1945 Manchester city plan was also largely in the same place as victoria.
 
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JonathanH

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You could compulsory purchase the AO arena and some of the surrounding buildings like the ones facing the river Irwell, which should (at least it appears) give you enough room for the required platforms.
Who could? You would still have to somehow get the line over the top of Salford Central station and not have conflicting junctions in that area.
 

Arkeeos

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Who could? You would still have to somehow get the line over the top of Salford Central station and not have conflicting junctions in that area.
There's room on that viaduct for more tracks, so the high speed line would just parallel it, slight expansion might be needed in some areas, but there is space.
 

Topological

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I would have made the station either:

(a) Part of the East Manchester redevelopment allowing it to be through running on a bend towards Leeds. Liverpool and Scotland would have been via the Airport as now planned.
(b) In the area of White City retail park / the new Trinity developments with Scotland bound trains able to run through the old Pendleton station and out to Wigan (which was mostly 4 track and has space), Liverpool able to take Chat Moss (with upgrades) and Leeds directed through Victoria (which would allow them a central stop as well potentially)

Option (a) is good for the regeneration of East Manchester but potentially damages Salford, whilst (b) focuses attention on West Manchester. Both at least allow additional development around the station and would be presumably cheaper than forcing everything into Piccadilly or Victoria. There may even have been money left over from the process (or development money) to allow a meaningful metro connection through Manchester. British projects tend to be less grand though and don't assume that the full redevelopment will follow.
 

Shaw S Hunter

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Simplest answer is that initially HS2 was all about links to/from London so additional connectivity was a secondary consideration. NPR only entered the discussion later by which time Piccadilly had more or less been settled on as the Manchester HS2 station. This is the UK, our politicians don't do strategic planning when it comes to transport (and quite a few other things...)
 

Arkeeos

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A quick look on Google Maps disagrees.
Doesn't seem so for me. There's space next to Salford central and an disused viaduct, on the approach to Victoria there's space down the middle, While this is because its 2 separate viaducts they could be filled in, if not there's an access road that you could build the track over.
 

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MattRat

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Would this still allow a station near Manchester airport? There was another alignment that would have come into the back of Piccadilly, turning it into a through station, but this was abandoned as it avoided Manchester airport. Personally I think they should have avoided the airport, but it's what those in power want, so has to be considered.
 

Halifaxlad

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Who could? You would still have to somehow get the line over the top of Salford Central station and not have conflicting junctions in that area.

Would this still allow a station near Manchester airport? There was another alignment that would have come into the back of Piccadilly, turning it into a through station, but this was abandoned as it avoided Manchester airport. Personally I think they should have avoided the airport, but it's what those in power want, so has to be considered.

Perhaps rather than using Victoria for both HS2 and NPR it should be used just for NPR ?

Which would remove the need for segregated tracks through Salford or avoiding this Airport parkway station.

Although this would result in a change of trains to reach HS2 depending on how NPR services reaches Liverpool, its seems perfectly acceptable to many to walk across city centres so a change of change shouldn't be too much of a problem!
 

Xenophon PCDGS

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What spare land is available at Victoria?

Piccadilly has the advantage that land exists in its Eastern side to accommodate the HS2 station.

Alignment doesn't really come into it if there is no space for the HS2 station.

Are you suggesting that HS2 trains approach Victoria from Earlestown and through Eccles on the existing lines?
On the Corporation Street elevation, there are now tall tower-blocks under construction.

There is Manchester Cathedral and the iconic Chethams School of Music also to consider, not forgetting the River Irwell.

I wonder how many "bright ideas" for either demolishing or CPO the arena have surfaced over the years?
 

stuu

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There is a clear sensible east-west route through Manchester Victoria which would have been far more sensible for NPR in my opinion. Grade separation at Middlewood, then convert Salford Central back to 6 tracks, with the northern pair for trains toward Bolton, central NPR, and a southern pair for services towards the airport, with terminal bays west of Victoria. No need to demolish the arena, no need for the airport tail to wag the dog.

Hs2 shouldn't go there though
 

Bletchleyite

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If you seperated HS2 from NPR then they wouldnt be a need to demolish the Arena at all!

Why would it make sense to deliberately make the HS2-NPR interchange worse?

(Though I'd be well up for demolishing the Arena and making Victoria suitable for what it does now, it's an absolute dump of a station!)
 

Halifaxlad

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Why would it make sense to deliberately make the HS2-NPR interchange worse?

Why would it be worse ?

Using Victoria services could still head via the Ordsall Chord as they do at the moment before continuing via HS2 to Liverpool*

NPR is basically just another word for Transpennine.

*not that I agree with this idea of going South before going West
 

Arkeeos

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Perhaps rather than using Victoria for both HS2 and NPR it should be used just for NPR ?
My question to that would be, does 3tph on its own warrant a 10mile tunnel under Manchester? I was under the impression that for that to make sense NPR was needed.

My logic for combining HS2 and NPR is that if you're spending money on a new segregated approach through Manchester, you mind as well run as many trains as possible on it.

And I would be advocating for a ground up rebuild of Victoria, I think you could get 10 platforms or so in with some 400m ones through the middle(the 4 existing ones, 4 400m platforms and 2 200m platforms for NPR), without demolishing any of the new flats.
 
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Bletchleyite

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Why would it be worse ?

Because HS2 would arrive at Piccadilly and you'd have to cross Manchester to change to NPR. How is that not worse than both at Picc?

Yes, it's like that now but it's really sub-optimal - moving stuff to Vic (nasty station) was just a cheap substitute for what really needed doing - platforms 15/16 at Piccadilly and a 4-tracked Castlefield route before the flats all went up and blocked doing that, plus some flyovers around Ardwick to remove the conflicts. The Hamburger Verbindungsbahn (Altona-Dammtor-Hbf) is almost identical in concept but as it's 4-tracked (2 mainline, 2 S-Bahn) it isn't anything like the same issue.
 

CrossNorthPr

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It would be the obvious choice (for NPR at least) if it weren't for the following:

1. Victoria lacks connectivity to the densely populated areas of South Manchester (SM)

Whilst Victoria is most definitely the best station to access the city centre, it is the worst for onward-connections by rail. It has decent connectivity to North Manchester (NM) and its respective towns i.e Rochdale, Bury, Oldham etc. To connect SM we could say "let's run metro frequency services over the Ordsall Chord" Okay, that makes sense on paper, but practically to do that we're going to have to:
A: Have to find terminating capacity at/beyond Victoria
B: Sacrifice services from Piccadilly via Bolton/Wigan etc.
C: To run such high frequencies reliably, we're going to have to lock Castlefield to the Styal Line to minimise conflicts on the Piccadilly throat. That means we're only really connecting people on that line, requiring yet another change at Piccadilly for onward-travel to the rest of SM.

2. Site Contraints & Accessibility

The platforms are long enough to accommodate the 200m sets proposed for NPR, but the station itself has an incredibly inefficient layout, with cramped walkways, poor accessibility (the stairs have to navigate around the arena supports making escalators a no-go) and a concourse with very limited space for shopping and hospitality amenities that a major intercity station would require. There's Alsop the issue of getting to the Metrolink platforms that require at-grade crossings. This just about works today with the footfall the station receives, but double that and there's going to be some serious crowd flow and safety issues. Piccadilly on the other hand has (due to be moved and expanded) Metrolink platforms in the undercroft with much better accessibility and crowd flow. Also, as much as I think we all dislike the Arena dominating the station preventing development and making the platforms dark etc. It's not going anywhere. It's a major asset to the city in terms of drawing in leisure travellers.

3. Political Reasons

There's a huge (not to be underestimated) political drive to serve Manchester Airport with NPR. TfN and the IRP both propose utilising HS2 infrastructure to get NPR services through Manchester. Whilst many of us (myself included) think this is a flawed idea (as it limits NPR services to 6tph with no room for future HS2 services, and passengers value frequency over direct connectivity, see Crossrail) there is a lot of support behind it. It might be a reasonable compromise to go via Piccadilly assuming we have metro frequencies to the airport, but from Victoria we're adding an extra 15mins to a 21min journey. That's not going to go down well with politicians who are already peeved about losing a direct, express airport service.

Manchester's network is a tough nut to crack, due to it's highly constrained nature with flat junctions and narrow viaducts making large infrastructure interventions on existing lines difficult to implement. The optimal solution of course, would be to serve both the NM & SM markets with two NPR stations via a tunnel/s. Victoria might first spring mind as an ideal location for a second station, but it would have to be a mined station with limited space to integrate it and manage crow flow, as well as being prohibitively expensive. The route that tunnel would take would be circuitous facing the wrong way at Piccadilly (unless using HS2) Another way of doing it is to put a second station in Salford west of Oldfield Rd. where the lines from both NM & SM "bunch up" That area has space for a shallow-box, possibly open-air station, providing an excellent interchange between intercity services and commuter services to NM. We could even lock the Bolton Corridor to the Rochdale Corridor then, taking out conflict points around Ordeal, as there would be a good level of connectivity for NM residents without having to traverse Castlefield to reach Piccadilly.

It also opens up space for more services over the Ordsall chord which, along with the rest of the existing network, would become able to operate as an "S-Bahn" style network, with metro-frequency services to destinations outside GM and separating out ALL intercity from commuter traffic (assuming a new/upgraded line from Salford to Liverpool with a junction toward Warrington, and Lancashire/Scotland. Assuming a portal near Ashbury's, we can bring in service to Sheffield too, taking those of the Castlefield Corridor and boosting the case for new underground infrastructure through Manchester in the form of a 2.5mi tunnel. With new/upgraded lines either side of the city, it could see 8-12tph depending on timetabling options and allowing for adequate dwell-times. That's much higher capacity than running via HS2 which is limited to 6tph.

The question raised is a very good one, as it does seem logical to go via Victoria at first glance, but once we go deeper it becomes clear it's not really a viable option, and arguable neither is running via HS2, especially if NPR is to use TRU (which is looking more and more likely) making timetabling NPR trains onto HS2 reliably a very difficult challenge, potentially building-in problems from day one.

Just my thoughts on it! :)

George.
 

Bletchleyite

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Remember that Manchester Airport isn't just to serve the actual airport. It's a Park and Ride site to replace Stockport in that role. Stockport station is a LOT busier than it would be if it only really served its hinterland - in reality it's a Parkway station for wealthy South Manchester and north Cheshire.

I personally take the view that HS2 2B is not worthwhile unless it is built (because losing Stockport without a replacement P&R station would be overall negative). It wouldn't ruin NPR without but it's certainly beneficial as otherwise those journeys will just go by car.
 

HSTEd

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As someone who has now lived in Manchester for many years, I've never understood why people are so desperate to turn Manchester Victoria into the major Manchester station again.

And even if you wanted to, given the site constraints I'm not sure its any better than a newbuild station on a new site. And there are far better sites for a railway station than Victoria. Building a unified station on the site of the soon to be redeveloped University North Campus is my own pet pipedream!
 

MattRat

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Perhaps rather than using Victoria for both HS2 and NPR it should be used just for NPR ?

Which would remove the need for segregated tracks through Salford or avoiding this Airport parkway station.

Although this would result in a change of trains to reach HS2 depending on how NPR services reaches Liverpool, its seems perfectly acceptable to many to walk across city centres so a change of change shouldn't be too much of a problem!
Except how do HS2 trains then reach Leeds?
 

Shaw S Hunter

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Politics has been mentioned upthread but there is a wider aspect to this. Firstly it has always been difficult to get public funding for big projects in the north and if the economy has a serious dip we miss out. So Loop & Link got built but Picc-Vic was cancelled. Manchester and Sheffield got trams but Leeds and Liverpool did not. HS2b has been cut back and NPR won't be an actual high-speed line east of Marsden. These are the realities, I'm not whining here.

HS2 could realistically only have one station in Manchester centre and connectivity issues pretty much make Piccadilly the only option. But it won't come cheap. As such how can anyone expect to get political support for also spending a fortune at Victoria. Yes there is surely scope for improving what's there but if there's any serious money available any time soon there are many other places in the north that need improving in addition to what's already being planned.
 

MattRat

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HS2 could realistically only have one station in Manchester centre and connectivity issues pretty much make Piccadilly the only option. But it won't come cheap. As such how can anyone expect to get political support for also spending a fortune at Victoria. Yes there is surely scope for improving what's there but if there's any serious money available any time soon there are many other places in the north that need improving in addition to what's already being planned.
Piccadilly might have more support, but it's being redesigned poorly. The current design throttles capacity, and while you may be able to run Leeds bound trains with current demand models, if demands goes up, what you have is a expensive paperweight design.

That's why I understand OPs proposal. I still disagree and think the original plan bypassing the airport and making Piccadilly a through station is better, but me and OP clearly agree the current plan will be a catastrophic failure.
 

Xenophon PCDGS

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That's why I understand OPs proposal. I still disagree and think the original plan bypassing the airport and making Piccadilly a through station is better, but me and OP clearly agree the current plan will be a catastrophic failure.
How many others, more in actual control of such matters and with the required wherewithal, think that they have a better idea than your named duo?
 

Shaw S Hunter

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Piccadilly might have more support, but it's being redesigned poorly. The current design throttles capacity, and while you may be able to run Leeds bound trains with current demand models, if demands goes up, what you have is a expensive paperweight design.

That's why I understand OPs proposal. I still disagree and think the original plan bypassing the airport and making Piccadilly a through station is better, but me and OP clearly agree the current plan will be a catastrophic failure.
As far as can tell from the OP's posts the only objection to Piccadilly is that Leeds-Liverpool services will need to reverse there. Yet places like Frankfurt, Munich and Zurich reverse many through services each and every day without there being any suggestion that their networks have been catastrophically damaged as a result. Even here we have been reversing long-distance trains at Birmingham New Street for decades. Given that all such trains these days are worked by or as multiple units the arguments about light locomotive movements having a negative impact on capacity no longer apply.

As for potential capacity issues towards Leeds the real issue is the government's refusal to fund a HS route east of Marsden. But if we could have the absolute ideal solution with sufficient funding guaranteed to be available we would replace both Piccadilly and Victoria with an underground mega-station under St Peter's Square with 40 or so platforms!
 
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