Rerouting when 64 minutes late to get back on schedule - request denied

[Starmill]

Surely the original ticket, giving the traveller a legal right - under the law quoted - to be on the alternative train because of the delay, is a valid ticket for that re-routed journey?

That would be one interpretation and I wouldn't disagree with that interpretation. However I would expect if the charge were brought you'd need to advance a legal argument that your ticket wasn't invalid. This would obviously be a risk. What would happen if you were prosecuted in Magistrates Court and needed to use a legal argument to defend yourself I am not really sure. Of course the situation would be different if you were charged a Penalty Fare, or issued an unpaid fares notice in respect of the single fare, but not prosecuted.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 26 Feb 2023 ==

The legislation is based off of the airline rules, where passengers do not have the opportunity to unilaterally decide which of the similar options they choose, they have to engage with the airline to resolve the situation. Certainly your ticket / boarding pass doesn't automatically become valid for any other flight running the same route, although the same obligation to transport the passenger in comparable conditions is one of the options available.

Indeed. Of course the difference is that if an airline customer engages with a member of staff in person or customer service on the phone at their airline, the airline will likely be responsive to the requirement to offer rerouting. In general railway operators in the UK haven't put this process into place and thus the response you get is usually to be told no rerouting is available at all beyond the wording in use in the Conditions. You're quite right to suggest of course that the customer absolutely must engage with the provider of the cancelled or disrupted service as a first point of contact.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 26 Feb 2023 ==

In this case it has actually cost Avanti money as they are liable for the Delay Repay.

It's bizarre that some operators will choose to pay out compensation for a delay instead of organising rerouting, even in cases where the cost of rerouting would be zero and the cost of the compensation would be substantial. We don't know why this is because operators won't tell us, so we have to make up our own minds about their attitudes to customer service.

 

[allotments]

It's bizarre that some operators will choose to pay out compensation for a delay instead of organising rerouting, even in cases where the cost of rerouting would be zero and the cost of the compensation would be substantial. We don't know why this is because operators won't tell us, so we have to make up our own minds about their attitudes to customer service.

Yes.

Even worse in this case, Avanti wanted me to buy a new ticket after one of their trains was cancelled for me to arrive at Euston no later than originally scheduled (off peak single with railcard discount £41.25). What an insult!

Now I'll be claiming delay repay and raising a detailed complaint.

My most recent almost identical delay repay claim was rejected by Avanti 3 times, appealed twice more via customer relations, requiring several additional emails because Avanti calculated the delay based on me travelling on one of their trains - the same trains they refuse to reroute me onto - when a ticket was LNR only. I have no confidence that this won't be repeated.

How could a customer possibly be satisfied by these behaviours?

I asked about PRO and rerouting at Cambridge booking office (Greater Anglia) today. Although they didn't seem to know about PRO, they offer to reroute in the face of delay, by supplying a printed letter of authority on headed notepaper. If Greater Anglia can do this, why can't Avanti?

 

[Starmill]

Now I'll be claiming delay repay and raising a detailed complaint.

Indeed. And while Avanti West Coast would have been able to issue you with the appropriate authority to travel using no more staff time than they used to tell you you couldn't do that, they'll now have the administrative cost of dealing with both a complaint and a delay claim, plus the cost of paying out on the delay claim. If Avanti misunderstand the nature of your complaint at the first line, or don't provide an adequate explanation thus requiring multiple exchanges of correspondence, more administrative time will be needed. The cost in staff time dealing with the complaints is fairly substantial. If you refer their response to the Rail Ombudsman there will be even more cost for them, as the Ombudsman tries to negotiate a settlement on your behalf with them. A formal complaint also counts against them in a small part of the statistics used to measure their performance.

 

[redreni]

Issue a paper slip with the station stamp on it, requesting that the holder be conveyed by either specific services or any service of a particular company from relevant origin to relevant destination. Some companies have specifically designed slips, others have a more general form. Avanti West Coast used to be able to issue Authority to Travel sundries from their TIS to go with this, though I think those were endorsed for Avanti West Coast services only.

Avanti West Coast ticket clerks are empowered to issue these for Avanti services themselves, without having to seek a further layer of authorisation. However, it's likely that this wouldn't be relevant, because they're taking the view that you're not entitled to any rerouting.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 24 Feb 2023 ==


A noble aim, but I think that you're better off accepting that the station staff just won't intervene help you in these circumstances. By all means, ask them politely to arrange rerouting for you every time it happens; indeed, if you don't ask, you may be on very weak ground when you come to complain, but don't expect a helpful response. To actually get a response that deals with the subject, you'll need to contact customer relations, and see what excuses they put up for inconveniencing you so badly.

If you have a credit card, such as an American Express card, you could also just purchase a ticket the next time these circumstances arise. Then complain about the lack of rerouting to the operator who caused the delay. If they won't pay you back the value of the extra ticket you paid for, you can then apply for a chargeback. The Rail Ombudsman route is also available, but it's slow and there's no guarantee of success.

Whether or not passengers are entitled to rerouting is not a matter of opinion on which it is open to train companies to take a view.

Let's be clear: they're not taking the view that passengers aren't entitled. They know perfectly well passengers are entitled to rerouting, they're simply choosing to deny passengers their entitlement because they believe (seemingly correctly) that they will get away with it. I believe this is what a certain kind of politician calls "light-touch regulation".

 

[Watershed]

Whether or not passengers are entitled to rerouting is not a matter of opinion on which it is open to train companies to take a view.

Let's be clear: they're not taking the view that passengers aren't entitled. They know perfectly well passengers are entitled to rerouting, they're simply choosing to deny passengers their entitlement because they believe (seemingly correctly) that they will get away with it. I believe this is what a certain kind of politician calls "light-touch regulation".

I don't think it's any malicious kind of refusal by the individual members of staff. As far as they're concerned, they are applying the correct policy they've been trained about.

The problem is that at a corporate level, the TOCs just don't seem to appreciate that for them to comply with the PRO, they are going to have to train their staff on it. None of the TOCs seem to have done so.

 

[yorkie]

Not an expert in the legalities of this at all, but does it being split tix change what is required?Technically does it become your responsibility to get to Crewe in time for the 1813?

Not at all; what matters is the journey. You may use a combination of tickets to make your journey.

My recommendation is to purchase the journey as one journey from an accredited split ticket provider (e.g. the forum's site); this will ensure that you have evidence of the contract in the form of a through itinerary as well as ensuring that the itinerary is a valid one. Doing your own splits is fine but you're on your own in the event of a dispute, and it can become problematic if any of the trains are retimed. Having the backing of a split ticket retailer that offers good customer service can be useful too!

twice more via customer relations, requiring several additional emails because Avanti calculated the delay based on me travelling on one of their trains - the same trains they refuse to reroute me onto

- when a ticket was LNR only. I have no confidence that this won't be repeated.

This is the sort of poor behaviour I expect of train companies (including West Midlands Trains, Avanti and most others).

How could a customer possibly be satisfied by these behaviours?

Most train companies just aren't interested in providing customer satisfaction; if they were, they'd behave very differently.

I asked about PRO and rerouting at Cambridge booking office (Greater Anglia) today. Although they didn't seem to know about PRO,

Most TOCs have no interest in training/informing their staff to comply with the law in this area

they offer to reroute in the face of delay, by supplying a printed letter of authority on headed notepaper.

That's great to hear that they would do that; sadly, this is not as common as it should be.

If Greater Anglia can do this, why can't Avanti?

Indeed; there is no good/legitimate reason why not.

 

[redreni]

I don't think it's any malicious kind of refusal by the individual members of staff. As far as they're concerned, they are applying the correct policy they've been trained about.

The problem is that at a corporate level, the TOCs just don't seem to appreciate that for them to comply with the PRO, they are going to have to train their staff on it. None of the TOCs seem to have done so.

Oh, no, I wasn't talking about the frontline staff. By all accounts they haven't been trained on PRO so they may well believe passengers aren't entitled to rerouting. They're wrong, of course, but that's hardly their fault as they're entitled to rely on their training.

For their employers to choose not to train them on passengers' rights really is appalling when you think about it, because it invites the situation where the passenger knows about PRO and the staff member doesn't, which is bound to make any amicable resolution to the passenger's rerouting request extremely difficult and this gives rise to the quite avoidable risk of the situation escalating. It's not good for anyone - passengers or staff.

At the corporate level, while admit I don't necessarily have the highest opinion of the intellectual calibre of the top brass in Britain's train companies (although there are some extremely clever people working underneath them who keep the whole ramshackle system running), I can't accept that they don't understand what they would need to do to comply with the regulation. It would be pretty straightforward. It's won't rather than can't, I'm afraid.

 

[Starmill]

They know perfectly well passengers are entitled to rerouting, they're simply choosing to deny passengers their entitlement because they believe (seemingly correctly) that they will get away with it.

The train operators do as they do and refuse to engage with us as to why that is. We cannot therefore determine their true motives, unless some further information is forthcoming. The best we can do is hypothesise, and usually incompetence is a better hypothesis than malice.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 26 Feb 2023 ==

I can't accept that they don't understand what they would need to do to comply with the regulation. It would be pretty straightforward. It's won't rather than can't, I'm afraid.

I certainly agree that it wouldn't be particularly difficult or expensive to create a new process which complies. But it would cost more than zero so it seems very unlikely.

 

[allotments]

I've now emailed a complaint

“Dear Avanti West Coast

On Friday 24 February I was travelling from Llandudno Junction to Euston.

Travelling with split tickets with this itinerary:
Ticket 1
16:23 Llandudno Junction - Chester
17:32 Chester - Crewe (Avanti train cancelled after 10pm day before)
Ticket 2
18:13 Crewe - Euston (LNR only ticket)

At 16:27 I direct messaged your Twitter account @AvantiWestCoast as follows

I'm travelling now from LLJ 16:23 to EUS but 17:32 CTR-CRE Avanti service is cancelled. My ticket from CRE-EUS is LNR only but due to the cancellation I'm now expected to arrive EUS 64 minutes late 21:28 instead of 20:24. Therefore I have a right to be rerouted according to PRO (Passenger Rights & Obligations). Please provide me authorisation to use an Avanti service such as 18:32 CRE-EUS so that I can still arrive at EUS by 20:24

I provided a link to PRO:

https://www.gov.uk/government/publi...f-delays-missed-connections-and-cancellations ，

a photo of my tickets and a screenshot of the relevant text (attached)

I was advised to speak to station staff, which I did at Crewe booking office, where I asked again to be rerouted onto the 18:32 to Euston because the anticipated delay if I travelled on the next LNR train at 19:13 would be 64 minutes.

Incredibly, I was told to buy a new ticket if I wanted to do this. I didn't.

According to the UK Government guidance, all parts of Regulation 1371/2007 on Rail Passengers’ Rights and Obligations came into effect in 2019.

The specific clause of the regulations which applies is:
"Where there is a reasonable expectation that a delay that will lead to arrival at the final destination 60 minutes or more late, passengers may... choose ...

• continuation or re-routeing under comparable transport conditions to the final destination at the earliest opportunity"

Why were my passenger rights denied?

Why was your legal obligation to honour my choice to be rerouted at the earliest opportunity not carried out?

Are your personnel trained to understand PRO and facilitate it?

When something went wrong why didn't you simply facilitate my arrival on time in Euston as requested, to redress the delay caused by your train being cancelled？That would have been a very positive experience, meeting expectations.

Why instead of this did you try to extort more money from me for the journey I had already paid for？

Is this what passengers should expect from Avanti West Coast”

 

[Watershed]

I've now emailed a complaint

“Dear Avanti West Coast

On Friday 24 February I was travelling from Llandudno Junction to Euston.

Travelling with split tickets with this itinerary:
Ticket 1
16:23 Llandudno Junction - Chester
17:32 Chester - Crewe (Avanti train cancelled after 10pm day before)
Ticket 2
18:13 Crewe - Euston (LNR only ticket)

At 16:27 I direct messaged your Twitter account @AvantiWestCoast as follows

I'm travelling now from LLJ 16:23 to EUS but 17:32 CTR-CRE Avanti service is cancelled. My ticket from CRE-EUS is LNR only but due to the cancellation I'm now expected to arrive EUS 64 minutes late 21:28 instead of 20:24. Therefore I have a right to be rerouted according to PRO (Passenger Rights & Obligations). Please provide me authorisation to use an Avanti service such as 18:32 CRE-EUS so that I can still arrive at EUS by 20:24

I provided a link to PRO:

https://www.gov.uk/government/publi...f-delays-missed-connections-and-cancellations ，

a photo of my tickets and a screenshot of the relevant text (attached)

I was advised to speak to station staff, which I did at Crewe booking office, where I asked again to be rerouted onto the 18:32 to Euston because the anticipated delay if I travelled on the next LNR train at 19:13 would be 64 minutes.

Incredibly, I was told to buy a new ticket if I wanted to do this. I didn't.

According to the UK Government guidance, all parts of Regulation 1371/2007 on Rail Passengers’ Rights and Obligations came into effect in 2019.

The specific clause of the regulations which applies is:
"Where there is a reasonable expectation that a delay that will lead to arrival at the final destination 60 minutes or more late, passengers may... choose ...

• continuation or re-routeing under comparable transport conditions to the final destination at the earliest opportunity"

Why were my passenger rights denied?

Why was your legal obligation to honour my choice to be rerouted at the earliest opportunity not carried out?

Are your personnel trained to understand PRO and facilitate it?

When something went wrong why didn't you simply facilitate my arrival on time in Euston as requested, to redress the delay caused by your train being cancelled？That would have been a very positive experience, meeting expectations.

Why instead of this did you try to extort more money from me for the journey I had already paid for？

Is this what passengers should expect from Avanti West Coast”

I wouldn't have necessarily worded it in exactly the same word (I think the word "extort" is perhaps unhelpful), but that certainly gets the gist of your complaint across. I wouldn't expect anything in terms of a useful response, but I suppose there's no harm in trying.

 

[LowLevel]

Speaking in terms of training I wouldn't have a clue what "PRO" was. The only time I ever see it mentioned is on here. Consequently I haven't much hope of complying with it

The Consumer Rights Act starting to apply to railways, on the other hand, generated quite a few briefings.

 

[Watershed]

Speaking in terms of training I wouldn't have a clue what "PRO" was. The only time I ever see it mentioned is on here. Consequently I haven't much hope of complying with it

The Consumer Rights Act starting to apply to railways, on the other hand, generated quite a few briefings.

This is the bizarre thing - the CRA effectively has zero impact on frontline staff (it's mainly something that customers might rely on when complaining or writing to customer services), yet the PRO is something that staff might deal with on an everyday basis (if passengers were actually informed of their rights).

 

[redreni]

Speaking in terms of training I wouldn't have a clue what "PRO" was. The only time I ever see it mentioned is on here. Consequently I haven't much hope of complying with it

The Consumer Rights Act starting to apply to railways, on the other hand, generated quite a few briefings.

Is that how it's described?

Perhaps they mean the rail industry starting to acknowledge that the Consumer Rights Act applies to railways (which it always did and still does)?

 

[Watershed]

Is that how it's described?

Perhaps they mean the rail industry starting to acknowledge that the Consumer Rights Act applies to railways (which it always did and still does)?

That's not quite right; the rail industry was indeed initially exempt. But it's just odd how seriously the ending of that exemption was treated, compared to the ending of the 10-year exemption the domestic industry enjoyed from the PRO!

 

[LowLevel]

This is the bizarre thing - the CRA effectively has zero impact on frontline staff (it's mainly something that customers might rely on when complaining or writing to customer services), yet the PRO is something that staff might deal with on an everyday basis (if passengers were actually informed of their rights).

It was some years and a different company ago now but it was largely based around mitigating poor experiences rather than the customer feeling the need to seek CRA redress. Give them a brew or a first class upgrade and they're much less likely to formally complaint citing the CRA!

 

[DLRfan1]

I've now emailed a complaint

“Dear Avanti West Coast

On Friday 24 February I was travelling from Llandudno Junction to Euston.

Travelling with split tickets with this itinerary:
Ticket 1
16:23 Llandudno Junction - Chester
17:32 Chester - Crewe (Avanti train cancelled after 10pm day before)
Ticket 2
18:13 Crewe - Euston (LNR only ticket)

At 16:27 I direct messaged your Twitter account @AvantiWestCoast as follows

I'm travelling now from LLJ 16:23 to EUS but 17:32 CTR-CRE Avanti service is cancelled. My ticket from CRE-EUS is LNR only but due to the cancellation I'm now expected to arrive EUS 64 minutes late 21:28 instead of 20:24. Therefore I have a right to be rerouted according to PRO (Passenger Rights & Obligations). Please provide me authorisation to use an Avanti service such as 18:32 CRE-EUS so that I can still arrive at EUS by 20:24

I provided a link to PRO:

https://www.gov.uk/government/publi...f-delays-missed-connections-and-cancellations ，

a photo of my tickets and a screenshot of the relevant text (attached)

I was advised to speak to station staff, which I did at Crewe booking office, where I asked again to be rerouted onto the 18:32 to Euston because the anticipated delay if I travelled on the next LNR train at 19:13 would be 64 minutes.

Incredibly, I was told to buy a new ticket if I wanted to do this. I didn't.

According to the UK Government guidance, all parts of Regulation 1371/2007 on Rail Passengers’ Rights and Obligations came into effect in 2019.

The specific clause of the regulations which applies is:
"Where there is a reasonable expectation that a delay that will lead to arrival at the final destination 60 minutes or more late, passengers may... choose ...

• continuation or re-routeing under comparable transport conditions to the final destination at the earliest opportunity"

Why were my passenger rights denied?

Why was your legal obligation to honour my choice to be rerouted at the earliest opportunity not carried out?

Are your personnel trained to understand PRO and facilitate it?

When something went wrong why didn't you simply facilitate my arrival on time in Euston as requested, to redress the delay caused by your train being cancelled？That would have been a very positive experience, meeting expectations.

Why instead of this did you try to extort more money from me for the journey I had already paid for？

Is this what passengers should expect from Avanti West Coast”

I might be wrong, but my understanding is that as this was not just split tickets, but two seperate tickets, are the two not considered unrelated.

Ie.

Travelling with split tickets with this itinerary:
Ticket 1
16:23 Llandudno Junction - Chester
17:32 Chester - Crewe (Avanti train cancelled after 10pm day before)
Ticket 2
18:13 Crewe - Euston (LNR only ticket)

As 17:32 CTR-CRE was cancelled I missed connection for 18:13 CRE-EUS and am travelling on 19:13 CRE-EUS expecting to arrive 64 minutes later than original schedule.

At Crewe, facing a 64 minute delay, I asked to be rerouted onto Avanti 18:32 CRE-EUS so that I could arrive EUS on time. That request was denied unless I bought a new ticket (I didn't).

Avanti had the opportunity to get the passenger back on schedule after a cancellation of one of their trains caused a missed connection. Opportunity missed: poor customer experience!

Passenger rights and obligations (PRO) right to be rerouted at earliest opportunity comes to mind.

Should Avanti have rerouted me to travel at no extra charge to make up time? I would prefer that to delay repay.

This situation is going to recur regularly on my Friday commute until Avanti stop frequent cancellation of the 17:32 CTR-CRE. So your advice would be appreciated and provide me with ammunition!

if these are two seperate journeys, would they not argue that you did arrive at your destination? And then the second ticket (I’m assuming an advance?) was then missed, placing the burden on you to repay?

My understanding is this is the weakness of buying multiple tickets for one journey, as the journey is considered complete wherever the ticket ends, not where the actual journey ends?

 

[XAM2175]

I might be wrong, but my understanding is that as this was not just split tickets, but two seperate tickets, are the two not considered unrelated.

if these are two seperate journeys, would they not argue that you did arrive at your destination? And then the second ticket (I’m assuming an advance?) was then missed, placing the burden on you to repay?

My understanding is this is the weakness of buying multiple tickets for one journey, as the journey is considered complete wherever the ticket ends, not where the actual journey ends?

I'm afraid you're wrong. The National Rail Conditions of Travel specifically permit the use of multiple tickets to make up one journey:

14. Using a Combination of Tickets
14.1: Some Tickets specifically exclude their use in conjunction with other Tickets. This will be made clear in the terms and conditions when buying such Tickets
14.2: Unless Condition 14.1 applies, you may use a combination of two or more Tickets to make a journey provided that the train services you use Call at the station(s) where you change from one Ticket to another.

'Splitting' is just a colloquial term used to describe this practice.

 

[allotments]

I've had a response from Avanti West Coast customer relations:

“As your ticket from Crewe to London Euston was valid on West Midlands and London NW Railway services only, your ticket wouldn't have been valid for travel on the 18:32 service as this was an Avanti West Coast service. The ticket you have for travel must still be valid for the route you take, so you were correctly told you would've needed to purchase a new ticket for that service.

If you arrived at your destination 15 minutes or later after your intended arrival time you may be eligible to claim Delay Repay...”

I replied:

“I'm aware of delay repay but why was my request to be re-routed in accordance with Regulation 1371/2007 on Passenger Rights and Obligations denied?”

Avanti replied:

“As your ticket for Crewe to London Euston was valid on West Midlands and London NW Railway services only, and the 18:32 service was an Avanti West Coast, your ticket wouldn't have been valid for the 18:32 service. You can be rerouted due to service disruption, but the ticket you have for travel must be valid for the operator of the service you take. As your ticket wasn't valid for Avanti West Coast services you would have been unable to take the 18:32 service.”

I replied:

“I appreciate your prompt replies.

I would like a response which doesn't side step the key issue I have raised about a passengers right to choose to be re-routed in accordance with Regulation 1371/2007 on Passenger Rights and Obligations when a delay of 60 minutes or more is expected.

I gave a specific example of a journey where PRO should apply.

Please escalate my complaint within your organisation.”

 

[Watershed]

I've had a response from Avanti West Coast customer relations:

“As your ticket from Crewe to London Euston was valid on West Midlands and London NW Railway services only, your ticket wouldn't have been valid for travel on the 18:32 service as this was an Avanti West Coast service. The ticket you have for travel must still be valid for the route you take, so you were correctly told you would've needed to purchase a new ticket for that service.

If you arrived at your destination 15 minutes or later after your intended arrival time you may be eligible to claim Delay Repay...”

I replied:

“I'm aware of delay repay but why was my request to be re-routed in accordance with Regulation 1371/2007 on Passenger Rights and Obligations denied?”

Avanti replied:

“As your ticket for Crewe to London Euston was valid on West Midlands and London NW Railway services only, and the 18:32 service was an Avanti West Coast, your ticket wouldn't have been valid for the 18:32 service. You can be rerouted due to service disruption, but the ticket you have for travel must be valid for the operator of the service you take. As your ticket wasn't valid for Avanti West Coast services you would have been unable to take the 18:32 service.”

I replied:

“I appreciate your prompt replies.

I would like a response which doesn't side step the key issue I have raised about a passengers right to choose to be re-routed in accordance with Regulation 1371/2007 on Passenger Rights and Obligations when a delay of 60 minutes or more is expected.

I gave a specific example of a journey where PRO should apply.

Please escalate my complaint within your organisation.”

Just goes to show how utterly inept and useless their customer services are - just totally ignoring what you are saying. Obviously it's not on their 'script' but that doesn't excuse such a poor response. If it's not on the script, escalate it straight away to someone who knows what they're talking about!

 

[allotments]

Avanti have replied promptly:

"Thank you for getting back to us regarding passenger rights and obligations.

I have looked further into this matter for you and can see that this would be assessed on a case by case basis, but as the cancelled service was an Avanti West Coast service, you could have been given an authority to travel on the 18:32 service to avoid overall journey delay.

I will pass your comments on to the relevant department to review and look into staff training for future circumstances like this."

Reminds me of my original DM to @AvantiWestCoast "... Please provide me authorisation to use an Avanti service such as 18:32..."

That appears to be capitulation

Are we making progress?

But there's still no clear answer about Avanti policy regarding passengers choosing to exercise their right to be re-routed and how this will work in practice for any passenger when a delay of 60 minutes or more is anticipated.

Perhaps the forum could suggest how to respond?

"In view of your experience, I’d like to offer you 25% off your next journey with Avanti West Coast..."

but "No further discounts or promotions can be used at the same time, including Railcards"

That sweetener simply doesn't cut it with me, as I travel with a Senior Railcard discount 33% already,. but it does expose a very stingey attitude. From the same company who tried to extort more £££ from me so that I could arrive on time after their train was cancelled.

Laughable

Fortunately I'm not trying to get a voucher, just want to see passenger rights upheld and proper training for rail staff to support this.

 

[tomoufc]

Well done for chasing this up. It's useful to point to if others find themselves in a similar situation.

What is the procedure if there clearly isn't time to go to the booking office at the connecting station? Could I ask the guard of the train I wanted to be re-routed to (with the option of buying a new ticket onboard for claiming back later if they falsely refuse)?

 

[Watershed]

Well done for chasing this up. It's useful to point to if others find themselves in a similar situation.

What is the procedure if there clearly isn't time to go to the booking office at the connecting station? Could I ask the guard of the train I wanted to be re-routed to (with the option of buying a new ticket onboard for claiming back later if they falsely refuse)?

That would certainly be one option, but it depends on the operator you're intending to travel with being the same as the operator that's obliged to re-route you.

Whilst in the OP's case these were both the same company (making the re-routing refusal even more difficult to justify), most of the time they will be different and so you cannot rely on this as your sole method of requesting re-routing. Remember that (unless you would otherwise be stranded) it is only the operator 'at fault' that is obliged to re-route you, not the operator you now want to travel with.

It's always good to have the refusal to re-route in writing, in order to easily later pursue your claim for reimbursement, so I'd contact the relevant operator on social media (e.g. Twitter).

 

[etr221]

Avanti have replied promptly:

"Thank you for getting back to us regarding passenger rights and obligations.

I have looked further into this matter for you and can see that this would be assessed on a case by case basis, but as the cancelled service was an Avanti West Coast service, you could have been given an authority to travel on the 18:32 service to avoid overall journey delay.

I will pass your comments on to the relevant department to review and look into staff training for future circumstances like this."

Reminds me of my original DM to @AvantiWestCoast "... Please provide me authorisation to use an Avanti service such as 18:32..."

That appears to be capitulation

Are we making progress?

But there's still no clear answer about Avanti policy regarding passengers choosing to exercise their right to be re-routed and how this will work in practice for any passenger when a delay of 60 minutes or more is anticipated.

Perhaps the forum could suggest how to respond?

"In view of your experience, I’d like to offer you 25% off your next journey with Avanti West Coast..."

but "No further discounts or promotions can be used at the same time, including Railcards"

That sweetener simply doesn't cut it with me, as I travel with a Senior Railcard discount 33% already,. but it does expose a very stingey attitude. From the same company who tried to extort more £££ from me so that I could arrive on time after their train was cancelled.

Laughable

Fortunately I'm not trying to get a voucher, just want to see passenger rights upheld and proper training for rail staff to support this.

By serendip, the following came to me today:

Men are not angered by mere misfortune but by misfortune conceived as injury. And the sense of injury depends on the feeling that a legitimate claim has been denied. (source: Screwtape Letters, C S Lewis)

And in this case, Avanti seem determined to add insult upon insult to the injury.

In getting back to them - at least on the final time - I would be inclined to point out that as it was their cancellation that caused the delay (of, AIUI, over an hour) they are the ones on the hook for full refund. And spelling out a full list of the injuries and insults inflicted, rather a simple reroute that would have meant a fairly punctual arrival in London.

 

[Kite159]

"In view of your experience, I’d like to offer you 25% off your next journey with Avanti West Coast..."

but "No further discounts or promotions can be used at the same time, including Railcards

So a pretty useless gesture for people like yourself who have a Railcard.

If the discount code could be used in conjunction with a Railcard it might have been worth something.

 

[allotments]

It's always good to have the refusal to re-route in writing, in order to easily later pursue your claim for reimbursement, so I'd contact the relevant operator on social media (e.g. Twitter).

Yes!

Even if unanswered or unresolved, a Twitter message to the train operating company responsible for rerouting provides evidence that the passenger requested to be rerouted.

 

[tomoufc]

Yes!

Even if unanswered or unresolved, a Twitter message to the train operating company responsible for rerouting provides evidence that the passenger requested to be rerouted.

I guess maybe a combination of this and asking the guard on the train that is delayed might be enough.

 

[allotments]

My (hopefully) closing remarks to Avanti:

"I do feel that we are making progress.

It is apparent that across the UK rail industry as a whole, there is widespread ignorance of PRO and most passengers don't know about it either.

I am sure that an easily understandable protocol supporting PRO for rail staff and passengers to follow would help enormously.

There appears to be such a protocol for delay repay but not for PRO.

My suggestion would be - along the principles established for delay repay - that the first train operating company causing delay would be responsible for any additional costs where revised documentation of authorisation to travel cannot be provided immediately. Arranging this should not cause further delay. Costs to be claimed back by the passenger later where necessary. Passengers without the means to pay additional fares for refund later should not be disadvantaged. Duty of care.

These rights and obligations need to be publicised. Avanti West Coast does a good job reminding everyone about delay repay, so please extend that to PRO.

Thanks again for your prompt responses throughout this dialog."

 

[LowLevel]

Delay repay publicity is a commitment for the franchise/NRC/ERMA whatever it is at the minute, hence you'll find it is pushed.

PRO however is not, hence you'll not see it publicised. I wonder how much communication the body responsible for coming up with the regulations has had about them with the UK TOCs.

 

[Segedunum]

So a pretty useless gesture for people like yourself who have a Railcard.

If the discount code could be used in conjunction with a Railcard it might have been worth something.

It'll be because, from my experience, agents can give out 25% discount codes without any authorisation.

50% off codes needed manager authorisation, and 75% needed ops manager authorisation. So it will have been a quick attempt at doing something nice, if a bit useless to the OP.

At least they've acknowledged that PRO indeed exists and applies...

 

[Haywain]

My (hopefully) closing remarks to Avanti:

"I do feel that we are making progress.

It is apparent that across the UK rail industry as a whole, there is widespread ignorance of PRO and most passengers don't know about it either.

I am sure that an easily understandable protocol supporting PRO for rail staff and passengers to follow would help enormously.

There appears to be such a protocol for delay repay but not for PRO.

My suggestion would be - along the principles established for delay repay - that the first train operating company causing delay would be responsible for any additional costs where revised documentation of authorisation to travel cannot be provided immediately. Arranging this should not cause further delay. Costs to be claimed back by the passenger later where necessary. Passengers without the means to pay additional fares for refund later should not be disadvantaged. Duty of care.

These rights and obligations need to be publicised. Avant West Coast does a good job reminding everyone about delay repay, so please extend that to PRO.

Thanks again for your prompt responses throughout this dialog."

I don't expect that you'll get more than a "Thanks for your comments" type of response.