Avanti Euston-Birmingham May 2023

[AJDesiro]

Does anyone know what’s happening with the Avanti Euston-Birmingham services in the May TTC? Will it still be the sometimes 3tph and most of the time 2tph, or is it ramping up to 3tph all the time?

At the moment a train that has come from further north than Birmingham runs in the semifast (in terms of intercity travel) from Birmingham to London, although when it is 3tph at certain hours it instead runs in the fast path leaving Birmingham at XX:17, as opposed to XX:21. Are there any plans to actually run a full 3tph service, or have the DfT put a stop to it? I understand this service is meant to be run by 807s when (and if) they come in.

 

[Halish Railway]

It seems to be the same as it is at the moment, i.e. 2tph off-peak (1 fast, 1 semi-fast) and 3tph at peak times (2 fast, 1 semi-fast).

I believe it was planned to go to 3tph for most of the day, but that appears to have been canned.

 

[AJDesiro]

It seems to be the same as it is at the moment, i.e. 2tph off-peak (1 fast, 1 semi-fast) and 3tph at peak times (2 fast, 1 semi-fast).

I believe it was planned to go to 3tph for most of the day, but that appears to have been canned.

That’s a shame if true, the Euston-Brum services are already getting incredibly busy, and with the Liverpool 2tph also appearing to be canned it raises questions as to the future of the 807 fleet.

 

[Halish Railway]

That’s a shame if true, the Euston-Brum services are already getting incredibly busy, and with the Liverpool 2tph also appearing to be canned it raises questions as to the future of the 807 fleet.

I think there still exists an ambition amongst Avanti and the DfT to introduce both the full 3tph Birmingham service and 2tph Liverpool service - They were factored into the December 2022 recast. I seem to remember viewing the full 3tph Birmingham service on Realtime Trains before it was amended to 2tph. Clearly Avanti believe that they don't have enough staff to work all three Birmingham services.

 

[Peter0124]

Yes it was 3tph when I first seen the timetable on Realtime Trains, has since been changed to 2.

 

[AJDesiro]

Hopefully the latest driver recruitment round may allow a December 2023 change.

 

[Bald Rick]

Hopefully the latest driver recruitment round may allow a December 2023 change.

Unlikely.

 

[AJDesiro]

Unlikely.

I can dream!

 

[JonathanH]

the Euston-Brum services are already getting incredibly busy

What does "incredibly busy" mean in this context? People standing all the way?

 

[AJDesiro]

What does "incredibly busy" mean in this context? People standing all the way?

It isn’t unheard of for people to stand all the way, I’ve certainly had to, although I’ll admit I have more experience of the semifast given the fast service doesn’t stop at Rugby. It doesn’t help that it uses platform one when going southbound at Birmingham, as the last few carriages (coach A-C) of an 11 car set are quite far away from the stairs down, meaning few people go there.

When the service is meant to be 3tph too, they seem to like p coding the semifast service too, for example: the 18:21 BHM-EUS today. Giving rugby, Milton Keynes and Watford no alternative Avanti service for an hour, meaning that LNWR are busier than usual too.

 

[william.martin]

It isn’t unheard of for people to stand all the way, I’ve certainly had to, although I’ll admit I have more experience of the semifast given the fast service doesn’t stop at Rugby. It doesn’t help that it uses platform one when going southbound at Birmingham, as the last few carriages (coach A-C) of an 11 car set are quite far away from the stairs down, meaning few people go there.

When the service is meant to be 3tph too, they seem to like p coding the semifast service too, for example: the 18:21 BHM-EUS today. Giving rugby, Milton Keynes and Watford no alternative Avanti service for an hour, meaning that LNWR are busier than usual too.

It would help if people didn't use them in what I call "the core" (as I am from the west midlands for me the "core" is imbetween Wolverhampton and Birmingham New Street,) you get a lot of people catching them from Wolverhampton to Sandwell and Dudley/ Birmingham New Street instead of sacrificing 5 minutes of there day to catch the all stops service 3 minutes later with LNWR, which from experience is dead quiet.
If people caught that all stops service instead I would bet on absolutely nobody having to stand.

 

[philosopher]

Unlikely.

I think there still exists an ambition amongst Avanti and the DfT to introduce both the full 3tph Birmingham service and 2tph Liverpool service - They were factored into the December 2022 recast. I seem to remember viewing the full 3tph Birmingham service on Realtime Trains before it was amended to 2tph. Clearly Avanti believe that they don't have enough staff to work all three Birmingham services.

Is there actually any intention then to ever run 3 Avanti per hour trains to between London and the West Midlands in the short to medium term then? It could be argued if they do not have enough drivers by December 2023, then they will never will.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

That’s a shame if true, the Euston-Brum services are already getting incredibly busy, and with the Liverpool 2tph also appearing to be canned it raises questions as to the future of the 807 fleet.

They should stick engines under them and give them to XC to reduce under the wires diesel working

 

[william.martin]

with the Liverpool 2tph also appearing to be canned it raises questions as to the future of the 807 fleet.

They have 16 less seats than a 9 car 390.

 

[Taunton]

It isn’t unheard of for people to stand all the way, I’ve certainly had to

Me too. The key problem is plugging in a service which has come a long way, from Scotland, into a 20 minute frequency service. It's only got to be less than half an hour late by Birmingham, which seems only too common, and the next service has to scoop up two trainloads. Once we had about 40 standees, including myself, in one coach all the way.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Me too. The key problem is plugging in a service which has come a long way, from Scotland, into a 20 minute frequency service. It's only got to be less than half an hour late by Birmingham, which seems only too common, and the next service has to scoop up two trainloads. Once we had about 40 standees, including myself, in one coach all the way.

It worked absolutely fine before Avanti's present woes. A superb piece of timetabling that solved the "full and standing 5 car" problem that previously existed on Brum to Scotland by making much more efficient use of units.

 

[AL1]

The Liverpool second hasn’t been “canned”. The plan has always been to ramp up when new fleet in service and passenger numbers justify. I am assuming December 2023 timetable onwards .

Perhaps you can share your source ?

 

[The Planner]

The Liverpool second hasn’t been “canned”. The plan has always been to ramp up when new fleet in service and passenger numbers justify. I am assuming December 2023 timetable onwards .

Perhaps you can share your source ?

It doesnt have rights yet.

 

[TomG]

Does anyone know what’s happening with the Avanti Euston-Birmingham services in the May TTC? Will it still be the sometimes 3tph and most of the time 2tph, or is it ramping up to 3tph all the time?

At the moment a train that has come from further north than Birmingham runs in the semifast (in terms of intercity travel) from Birmingham to London, although when it is 3tph at certain hours it instead runs in the fast path leaving Birmingham at XX:17, as opposed to XX:21. Are there any plans to actually run a full 3tph service, or have the DfT put a stop to it? I understand this service is meant to be run by 807s when (and if) they come in.

2bh I think how many services will actually run will depend on the unofficial strike action by Avanti staff. I imagine there are a few Whatsapp groups where staff decide what days they are going to be 'ill.' Avanti needs to hire more train crew. I noticed a section on their website for train drivers. But you still need the other critical staff required to run the service (Train Manager for example).

 

[Bletchleyite]

It doesnt have rights yet.

Interesting, as I thought the current hourly service was the second path minus the South Parkway stop. You can certainly tell it's a 110mph path - it feels really slow yet you don't run late!

Presumably if it was canned they'd rebid for a 125mph path?

(There are other uses for 807s but they're outwith this non-speculative thread and have been discussed before, but I doubt the order would be canned).

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

The Liverpool second hasn’t been “canned”. The plan has always been to ramp up when new fleet in service and passenger numbers justify. I am assuming December 2023 timetable onwards .

Perhaps you can share your source ?

I do hate it when people chuck around the “got a source?” phrase smugly. He’s a planner, is that not proof enough that he’ll know what he’s talking about?

 

[AL1]

Thank you to The Planner for his explanation. That’s what I was looking for .

 

[The Planner]

Interesting, as I thought the current hourly service was the second path minus the South Parkway stop. You can certainly tell it's a 110mph path - it feels really slow yet you don't run late!

Presumably if it was canned they'd rebid for a 125mph path?

(There are other uses for 807s but they're outwith this non-speculative thread and have been discussed before, but I doubt the order would be canned).

Depends if it alters the overall structure. There are other issues regardless of the rights that need solving first.

 

[Bald Rick]

I am assuming December 2023 timetable onwards .

I wouldn’t be betting on that.

 

[The Chimaera]

.

 

[adrock1976]

Regarding the 3tph InterCity New Street - Euston with 2 being non stop Coventry - Euston, is this intended to be the pattern until the first section of HS2 is in operation?

 

[The Planner]

Regarding the 3tph InterCity New Street - Euston with 2 being non stop Coventry - Euston, is this intended to be the pattern until the first section of HS2 is in operation?

No one is going to do another substantial re-write until then.

 

[adrock1976]

No one is going to do another substantial re-write until then.

Many thanks.