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Elizabeth Line to Stansted?

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rethink

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Does anyone know if this route via Stratford was studied as an option? Obviously, this line was planned to be connected to Crossrail 2, but this is years off and redundancy is always useful. From looking at the track diagram, there is no present switch connection and crossing tracks would diminish capacity at rush hour. But are there any other reasons that would get in the way?

Having a direct connection every 15 minutes to Stanstead Airport and a direct rail connection between Stanstead and Heathrow would be an obvious major benefit.
 
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PGAT

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I’ve never heard Stansted Airport been proposed anywhere. The CBR can’t be enough to even be considered
 

JonathanH

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Does anyone know if this route via Stratford was studied as an option?
No. The portal emerges in the wrong place at Stratford.

But are there any other reasons that would get in the way?
Route capacity via Tottenham Hale and distance from London.

Obviously, this line was planned to be connected to Crossrail 2, but this is years off and redundancy is always useful.
Nope. Crossrail 2 isn't planned to go to Stansted.

a direct rail connection between Stanstead and Heathrow would be an obvious major benefit.
Why? Who needs to get from Heathrow to Stansted on a stopping train?

Having a direct connection every 15 minutes to Stanstead Airport
One change at Liverpool Street.
 

zwk500

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How many people actually make inter-airport transfers around London? Especially from Stansted and Luton which are overwhelmingly served by point-to-point low-cost carriers who tend not to fuss about connections. I can understand a few City Airport-Heathrow transfers but even that will be a limited market.
 

Dr Hoo

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Given that the Lea Valley line and especially the single track tunnel at Stansted are essentially ‘full’ is the OP suggesting complete replacement of the Stansted Express with a much slower and less comfortable Elizabeth Line service?

Presumably this would involve thinning out the current Shenfield service (already claimed to be suffering crowding).
 

306024

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Another idea for the bonkers file rather than merely speculative :)
From looking at the track diagram, there is no present switch connection and crossing tracks would diminish capacity at rush hour. But are there any other reasons that would get in the way?
That should be sufficient I’d have thought. Usually spelling Stansted as Stanstead is a clue to how practical an idea is.
 

ijmad

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Crossrail 2 would have a much better chance of getting to Stansted. If the economic situation improves and we get a future government more willing to invest in infrastructure I think it has a good chance of getting built. It's slated to go to Cheshunt already so some trains could continue to other destinations like Stansted or Hereford East further North along the West Anglia line.
 

JonathanH

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It's slated to go to Cheshunt already so some trains could continue to other destinations like Stansted or Hereford East further North along the West Anglia line.
Broxbourne in the 2015 consultation, which of course has the advantage of space to terminate the service.

Both Hertford East and Stansted come with single line constraints and a question about whether the Liverpool Street services would have to make way for Crossrail 2 services. Is it realistic to run an essentially all stations service from London to Stansted, as the only service, given the distance.

If the economic situation improves and we get a future government more willing to invest in infrastructure I think it has a good chance of getting built.
It would still be nowhere near the top of the queue for spending, and the rail budget seems essentially committed for the next 30 years.

Perhaps it might be the George Line.
 

Bald Rick

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Does anyone know if this route via Stratford was studied as an option?

It was, actually, proposed as an option as an alternative to Crossrail 2.

I have it on good authority that the proposer, believe it or not, was the Rt Hon C Grayling. Some poor soul no doubt had to convince him of the ‘challenges’ of such a proposal.


Obviously, this line was planned to be connected to Crossrail 2

Crossrail 2 is not planned to go to Stansted.


Crossrail 2 would have a much better chance of getting to Stansted.

It has no chance, at all, of going to Stansted.


Another idea for the bonkers file rather than merely speculative :)

Agreed!
 

ijmad

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It would still be nowhere near the top of the queue for spending, and the rail budget seems essentially committed for the next 30 years.

It's in the most recent iterations of the Labour Manifesto, seems likely we will have them as at least part of the next government in 2024 or 2025.

I know that's no guarantee, but things can change quickly in Westminster when a new lot gets in.
 

A0

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It's in the most recent iterations of the Labour Manifesto, seems likely we will have them as at least part of the next government in 2024 or 2025.

I know that's no guarantee, but things can change quickly in Westminster when a new lot gets in.

Would that be the same Labour party which was in power for 10 years before approving Crossrail, or is there another one ?

As ever, there will be lots of spending promises in the run up to the next election, but since that can only be achieved through tax increases (good luck with that) or PFI, which is now politically toxic, I'd expect most of those to be quietly forgotten about after the election.
 

cle

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How many people actually make inter-airport transfers around London? Especially from Stansted and Luton which are overwhelmingly served by point-to-point low-cost carriers who tend not to fuss about connections. I can understand a few City Airport-Heathrow transfers but even that will be a limited market.
This airport to airport fetish which occurs here from time to time is not even marginal. From a train provision consideration/point of view, it is non-existent.

As for anything east on Crossrail, I doubt it. But it would only be Southend. Which is also a nearly metro, ostensibly - but would be very slow and just feed fast services at Shenfield.
 

JonathanH

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As for anything east on Crossrail, I doubt it.
Thurrock Council have set their sights on Crossrail running via the Romford to Upminster line, on to Grays and then linking back up with the Abbey Wood route on the other side of the river!
https://www.mylondon.news/news/east-london-news/bankrupt-council-wants-huge-elizabeth-26320229.amp
London Underground Tube map: The towns that could be added to the Elizabeth line as new giant loop through London, Essex and Kent is proposed

The proposed new extension would pass through parts of South and East London

BY CALLUM MARIUS
11:50, 24 FEB 2023
UPDATED 12:58, 24 FEB 2023

Bankrupt Thurrock Council in Essex is not letting its financial problems get in the way of its ambition to regenerate its local area, which borders East London, through massive improvements of its transport infrastructure. In documents released ahead of a planning, transport and regeneration committee meeting taking place on February 28, it lays out plans for a gigantic expansion of the rail network through its borough, which would have a huge impact on East and South London.

The proposal, which is part of its Vision 2050 local transport plan, would see the current Elizabeth line service from Romford take over the Overground branch to Emerson Park and Upminster, then join c2c services continuing via Chafford Hundred Lakeside to Tilbury. It would then head under a new tunnel beneath the Thames to Gravesend, connecting with the reintroduced Eurostar at Ebbsfleet International/Northfleet.

Finally, it would follow Thameslink services for a stretch through Bluewater, Dartford, Slade Green, Erith and Belvedere to the current Elizabeth line terminus at Abbey Wood. This amounts to an extension of around 27 to 30 miles depending on the final position of the additional Thames crossing.

This giant loop would also stop at a new station in the Thurrock area, and the new Thames rail crossing which it is proposed to use would also facilitate High Speed services to London via the Southeastern High Speed route according to the documents. This would mean 140mph Javelin trains running from St Pancras International and Stratford International to Southend/Shoeburyness, using the current route to Gravesend, crossing the Thames to East Tilbury and following c2c rail services.

The plans are just an indicative 'framework' for now, but the council says: "[This would be] a transformation of Thurrock’s railways to support the delivery of new homes and jobs, improve public transport accessibility and realise the borough’s full potential as an important economic hub at the heart of the Thames Estuary." It adds "our vision is to realise the full potential of the existing lines in the short and medium-term through double-tracking, new and improved stations, longer trains, new junctions and signalling - and to add capacity through new rail lines in the long term," by "increasing/releasing capacity on commuter routes through a southern Crossrail extension via Gravesend-Tilbury, a northern Crossrail/London Overground extension via Upminster/Romford and an Overground extension via Dagenham Dock." All of these would require the support of City Hall, TfL and the Westminster government to get off the ground.

Also in the plan is a new bus rapid transit system, similar to the 'Fastrack' group of routes which use special busways in Kent, which would run from Dagenham Dock station in East London, through Havering to Thurrock. This bus rapid transit scheme is favoured over the Kenex tram plan which proposes to introduce cross-river trams to Thurrock, although the council accepts that most popular routes could be converted.

Conservative-run Thurrock Council currently has a debt of £1.5billion, rendering it effectively bankrupt. It has asked the Treasury for a loan of £182.5million to help it through this financial year, with plans to hike council tax for residents there by over nine per cent. Councillors there recently expressed their disapproval over the Lower Thames Crossing scheme to build a new road to decongest the Dartford Crossing
 

andrew749

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JonathanH

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Given who the author and the publication are, that (in my opinion) sounds like more hogwash. Thinning-out the Shenfield route isn't a good idea.
Ah, is that just a fake news site? That would explain it.

I guess I have been had.

However, the 'Anonymous Widower' has analysed it in some depth and linked to an actual report so it must be someone's grand plan (although I can't quite believe how seriously he seems to consider such a plan could conceivably happen for 2tph)
 
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30907

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Ah, is that just a fake news site? That would explain it.
No, not fake news in the strict sense (I've read other stuff from there) but not necessarily accurate and well-informed either.
With the greatest respect possible, I wouldn't read 'Anonymous Widower's blog posts as inferring any form of authority.
Indeed, but it does spell out the (ridiculous) amount of work implied.
I am surprised the author hasn't posted on here :)
 

ijmad

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Would that be the same Labour party which was in power for 10 years before approving Crossrail, or is there another one ?

As ever, there will be lots of spending promises in the run up to the next election, but since that can only be achieved through tax increases (good luck with that) or PFI, which is now politically toxic, I'd expect most of those to be quietly forgotten about after the election.

The government can also borrow to fund infrastructure.

In Spain, Renfe and Adif are collectively €20bn in debt after building almost 4000km of high speed rail over the last 20 years. This is considered much more acceptable by the markets than borrowing to fund general government spending, because infrastructure actually leads to economic growth, which should outpace the debt interest and allow you to pay it down if you did your RoI calculations correctly.
 

zwk500

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The government can also borrow to fund infrastructure.

In Spain, Renfe and Adif are collectively €20bn in debt after building almost 4000km of high speed rail over the last 20 years. This is considered much more acceptable by the markets than borrowing to fund general government spending, because infrastructure actually leads to economic growth, which should outpace the debt interest and allow you to pay it down if you did your RoI calculations correctly.
It's not like the UK government (or NR) is debt free at the moment. Crossrail and HS2 are both heavily leveraged projects.
 

Alfie1014

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Given who the author and the publication are, that (in my opinion) sounds like more hogwash. Thinning-out the Shenfield route isn't a good idea.
This is a link to the original documents (the detail of the ‘vision‘ is towards the end) https://democracy.thurrock.gov.uk/d...egeneration Overview and Scrutiny Co.pdf?T=10 whilst I support any LA in having aspirations on how to improve their local transport this seems like a crayonista frenzy, not least from a council so indebted as Thurrock!
CB1D21A4-7504-4507-9C6A-1288D376BF6B.jpeg
 

ijmad

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Intriguing idea but surely you'd need to boost the trunk frequency to create capacity for this, let's say from 24tph to 30tph or 32tph. Then begs the question, where would those extra trains go to in the West.
 

mr_jrt

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One thing I can see from that diagram is something I haven't seen mentioned in the reporting, they're not just proposing that Crossrail uses the new tunnel - existing LTS services would also use it to serve places east of Gravesend. I guess that solves the problem they had for reintroducing passenger service to Hoo in that there was no capacity for it at Gravesend? Also would be helpful for getting freight from Thamesport across the Thames - could free up paths in west London.

That said, hard to take seriously... "Javelin high-speed services to North Kwent" is a bit of a painful typo.
 

zwk500

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One thing I can see from that diagram is something I haven't seen mentioned in the reporting, they're not just proposing that Crossrail uses the new tunnel - existing LTS services would also use it to serve places east of Gravesend. I guess that solves the problem they had for reintroducing passenger service to Hoo in that there was no capacity for it at Gravesend?
This part is not totally correct - capacity could be made available, but it did require some more crossovers.
Also would be helpful for getting freight from Thamesport across the Thames - could free up paths in west London.
Ironically, it wouldn't do that much as the paths would still need to go via the North London Line to get to the WCML and ECML.
That said, hard to take seriously... "Javelin high-speed services to North Kwent" is a bit of a painful typo.
Equally 'Potential Javeline station at North Thurrock' is both an amusing Typo and a ridiculous proposal.
 

fandroid

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Stansted suffers so much misspelling. Not sure why.
It's associated with the demise of the simpler spelling of the past participle of "to lead". Just about everyone now spells "led" as if it were a heavy metal.
 

zwk500

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It's associated with the demise of the simpler spelling of the past participle of "to lead". Just about everyone now spells "led" as if it were a heavy metal.
Do they? If I read 'I lead them along the road' I would take it as the present tense.
 
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