The North of England - where does it start?

[181]

Yeah there's a whole area north of London which doesn't really fit into a region, like a banana shape from north of Reading to just west of Cambridge.

I'd tend to think of that as either (greater) south-east or Midlands, although I'm not sure where I'd put the boundary (or transition zone) between them.

Oxfordshire for example could be argued to be in the South, West or Midlands.

As a resident (albeit not a native, but I'll soon have been here for half my life) of south Oxfordshire (technically the part that used to be Berkshire, but close to the former boundary with historic Oxfordshire), I'd say that Henley is in the south-east and Banbury in the Midlands, but again with no definite boundary where one region is clearly demarcated from the other. I'm not sure that I'd think of anywhere in the county as being in the west, but once you cross into Wiltshire or Gloucestershire, that's west.

 

[rapmastaj]

In addition to the Marches and M1 Country, I'd also place Oxford and the Cotswolds in its own unofficial "region". South of the Midlands, north of the South, northeast of the West Country and west of M1 Country.

For me it's hard to find anywhere that feels more classically southern than Oxford and the Cotswolds. But you could argue about whether they belong in the SE or the SW. So why not go halves and call it Thames Valley?

 

[Cross City]

I'd say that Henley is in the south-east and Banbury in the Midlands, but again with no definite boundary where one region is clearly demarcated from the other. I'm not sure that I'd think of anywhere in the county as being in the west, but once you cross into Wiltshire or Gloucestershire, that's west.

If you've ever watched Clarkson's farm you'll see that the people of West Oxfordshire have rather pronounced West Country accents. Proper Cider Swillers.

 

[nw1]

For me it's hard to find anywhere that feels more classically southern than Oxford and the Cotswolds. But you could argue about whether they belong in the SE or the SW. So why not go halves and call it Thames Valley?

Thames Valley I always think of as Reading and points eastwards, but thinking about it that does make sense, as the Thames does then head through Oxford and beyond.

Living in the far south, I've never thought of the Cotswolds as Southern at all; remember the Cotswolds can clearly be seen from the hills on the southern fringes of Birmingham. Partly Midlands, partly West, but definitely not South.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 24 Feb 2023 ==

As a resident (albeit not a native, but I'll soon have been here for half my life) of south Oxfordshire (technically the part that used to be Berkshire, but close to the former boundary with historic Oxfordshire), I'd say that Henley is in the south-east and Banbury in the Midlands, but again with no definite boundary where one region is clearly demarcated from the other. I'm not sure that I'd think of anywhere in the county as being in the west, but once you cross into Wiltshire or Gloucestershire, that's west.

Neither a native nor a resident but yes, Oxfordshire is one of those counties which spans different regions. Henley I would place in the Central South and Banbury in the Midlands, just. I find the character of the country changes significantly once you get north of Oxford on the railway: Tackley and Heyford seem like deeply-rural south Midland or even slightly Cotswold in character, in contrast to the hustle and bustle of the line south of Oxford. In the 80s, when XC trains were still in the hands of diesel locos and Mk-IIs, Tackley was called "Tackley Halt", and Heyford still had (possibly replica) GWR (Big Four)-style signage, this section of line really did seem deeply rural and isolated.

So if we didn't have a separate "Oxford and Cotswolds" region I would say that somewhere a little north of Oxford is the boundary between the South and Midlands. Probably a line going through Woodstock and Kidlington.

I still don't know what region I would place somewhere like Stow-on-the-Wold though, if the Cotswolds were not allowed their own region. A Midlands-West fusion, I guess. It would be interesting to see what place residents of the central Cotswolds regard as their "regional centre". I'm guessing Oxford (hence a separate region) but if not, it would presumably be a choice between Birmingham and Bristol, and that would decide whether they are in the Midlands or West.

 

[Jamesrob637]

The mental North can often be referred to as anywhere more than around 100km away from London city.

 

[Intercity110]

The mental North can often be referred to as anywhere more than around 100km away from London city.

so Cornwall is in the north then?

 

[Jamesrob637]

so Cornwall is in the north then?

Mentally, Cornish people are more like northerners.
Not that there seem to be too many native Cornish people anymore with the way Cornwall is awash with second homes!

 

[Stathern Jc]

Just catching up with this thread.

It reminded me of a radio programme that Ian MacMillan did a few years ago about speech / language changing at a distinct geographical
point.
The example he used was to search South from Barnsley for the place where a house changes from being "An Owse" to become "An Arse".
It was between Sheffield and Chesterfield, loosely a South Yorkshire / North Derbyshire & Nottinghamshire divide.

Entertaining and informative, "The Arse That Jack Built", and still on BBC Sounds at: https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/b01ljwm4

 

[nw1]

Mentally, Cornish people are more like northerners.
Not that there seem to be too many native Cornish people anymore with the way Cornwall is awash with second homes!

I wonder whether that is the explanation for Cornwall's marked rightward political swing since 2015.

 

[Killingworth]

"It's grim up North."

"We're going down South."

"He's gone out west/east."

But for the railway it's up to London and down to the country wherever in the country it is.

 

[johnnychips]

"It's grim up North."

"We're going down South."

"He's gone out west/east."

But for the railway it's up to London and down to the country wherever in the country it is.

Very perceptive post. It’s the way things are on a map. As a geography teacher, I sometimes found it hard, at first, to convince younger students that water didn’t flow out of the Med and ‘down’ the Nile.

 

[181]

If you've ever watched Clarkson's farm you'll see that the people of West Oxfordshire have rather pronounced West Country accents. Proper Cider Swillers.

Just catching up with this thread.

It reminded me of a radio programme that Ian MacMillan did a few years ago about speech / language changing at a distinct geographical
point.
The example he used was to search South from Barnsley for the place where a house changes from being "An Owse" to become "An Arse".
It was between Sheffield and Chesterfield, loosely a South Yorkshire / North Derbyshire & Nottinghamshire divide.

Entertaining and informative, "The Arse That Jack Built", and still on BBC Sounds at: https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/b01ljwm4

Yes, I suppose accents do tend to correlate with regions, at least to some extent (or maybe people's perceptions of which region a place is in will be influenced by the predominant accent). Having said that, I think what we think of as 'West Country' accents may once have come further east than they do now, although I haven't noticed them much round here even among really old people.

So if we didn't have a separate "Oxford and Cotswolds" region I would say that somewhere a little north of Oxford is the boundary between the South and Midlands. Probably a line going through Woodstock and Kidlington.

Thinking about it, continuing the line eastwards approximately via Milton Kenyes and Bedford might perhaps give a boundary between the South and Midlands parts of your M1 Country.