Why did the NYMR not save the line from Pickering To Malton?

[2392]

It was because most of the Moors is in the National Park that the former North Riding county council stumped up the cash to buy the track between the Summit near Goathland and Pickering. Which in turn the Moors bought using a mortgage style loan. As for the boundary of the National Park, as a sort of rule of thumb, the section of line from approximately New Box Signal Box/crossing South into Pickering Station is outside the Park and thus falls under the soon to be disbanded Ryedale Council. Ryedale like several other local Authorities is being amalgamated into a larger unitary Authority [North Yorkshire County Council].

 

[47434]

The NYMR is a marvellous railway but the length is also a drawback. Pickering to Whitby is amazing for enthusiasts but far too long and far too expensive for the family market. It never fails to amaze me when I see comments on other railways social media around 'when are you extending' - Wensleydale being a prime example. The notion of ever running through to Hawes or Garsdale is frankly ludicrous

 

[zwk500]

The NYMR is a marvellous railway but the length is also a drawback. Pickering to Whitby is amazing for enthusiasts but far too long and far too expensive for the family market. It never fails to amaze me when I see comments on other railways social media around 'when are you extending' - Wensleydale being a prime example. The notion of ever running through to Hawes or Garsdale is frankly ludicrous

The NYMR does quite well out of people making a day of it in Whitby. The length of rhe train ride is less problematic when you're having a day in the town and people are happy to pay for a steam ride as a novelty.
Different to many heritage railways where people will generally be spending the day on the line and want time to visit the sheds and museums etc.

 

[DarloRich]

The NYMR is a marvellous railway but the length is also a drawback. Pickering to Whitby is amazing for enthusiasts but far too long and far too expensive for the family market

and yet the trains are full to bursting point..............................

 

[DustyBin]

I'm very confused how the economic viability of the proposal is not relevant if the intent is to fund them from the direct fare revenue. Or are you proposing a separate surcharge on Hotels and Restaurants or something?

It does amuse me when I read these kind of proposals. People live and work in the national park. People need to travel in and out for business purposes (for example). Businesses within the national park rely on people being able to drive to them in order to survive. It’s completely absurd to suggest banning cars.

In addition, part of the reason I visit the NYM national park is to drive across it (as suggested by Ford themselves!):

(Video shows a Focus RS driving through the NYM national park. It’s a Ford publicity video not my own, but I have re-enacted it on several occasions!).

 

[30907]

The NYMR definitely wouldn't have to maintain the bay platform but would have to pay to alter the track layout. Rillington Signal Box wouldn't be maintained or staffed by the NYMR as it is on the national network. BR/NR would have to maintain it.

Yes, obviously BR/ NR would have maintained stuff themselves but I was talking about cost - which NYMR would almost certainly have had to find, even if not in full.

The signal box could close and be replaced with a ground frame just like at Grosmont.

On a double-track main line which even now is moderately busy? Grosmont has 6 Northern and 4 NYMR trains each way daily.

 

[mike57]

The NYMR does quite well out of people making a day of it in Whitby. The length of rhe train ride is less problematic when you're having a day in the town and people are happy to pay for a steam ride as a novelty.
Different to many heritage railways where people will generally be spending the day on the line and want time to visit the sheds and museums etc.

I think when families make the trip some of the group will be looking forward to the steam train ride and other to the day in Whitby, maybe even splitting up and doing different activities depending on interests, so a family group can have a day out that ticks a number of boxes. Had the line from Pickering to Rillington been saved how many people would use the Malton/Pickering section, not many I suspect, Malton is not as tourist/holiday oriented as Pickering. You mght capture some day trippers from York, but to be honest if you are doing the journey by public transport from further afield you will use the Coastliner bus which is one of the better bus operations with a simple interchange at Malton. The let down will be the dire TPE 'will it run' lottery into Malton, partcularly on a weekend.

The NYMR are looking carefully at finances anyway, and looking at ways to operate profitably, as costs seem to be rising quicker than income. I am not sure that a further 6 or 7 miles of route would help.

 

[Class08Shunter]

So the NYMR didn't save the line from Pickering To Rillington because of the cost. I wonder why the county council didn't save the line. But if the NYMR saved the line, why would BR get involved?
Here is some links and quotes saying BR would get involved.

https://discover.hubpages.com/travel/TRAVEL-NORTH-54-A-BREATH-OF-NEW-LIFE-North-York-Moors-Historical-Railway-Trust-Re-opens-The-Line-From-Grosmont

An idea to restore the line beyond Pickering to Rillington Junction (for Malton and York) was shelved for various reasons including cost. One reason would involve Regional Rail based at York, who would have claimed the right to run trains over the line to Whitby and thus compromise the NYMR's Light Railway status.

https://discover.hubpages.com/travel/TRAVEL-NORTH-49-PICKERING-ROUND-TRIP-A-Look-Back-Into-The-Towns-Railway-Past

Reinstatement by the NYMR Board was considered but has been shelved due to cost and the necessary involvement of the national rail system; therefore the NYMR would not have a free hand in the running of the line.

 

[zwk500]

So the NYMR didn't save the line from Pickering To Rillington because of the cost. I wonder why the county council didn't save the line. But if the NYMR saved the line, why would BR get involved?
Here is some links and quotes saying BR would get involved.

https://discover.hubpages.com/travel/TRAVEL-NORTH-54-A-BREATH-OF-NEW-LIFE-North-York-Moors-Historical-Railway-Trust-Re-opens-The-Line-From-Grosmont

https://discover.hubpages.com/travel/TRAVEL-NORTH-49-PICKERING-ROUND-TRIP-A-Look-Back-Into-The-Towns-Railway-Past

Preservation of Rillington Jn would have meant a BR-Manned box, and running into Malton would have meant interoperation. I suspect BR were being deliberately awkward to make sure their future liabilities were reduced as much as possible, an attitude not unknown towards heritage lines at the time.
There appears to have been a mix of sympathetic staff, with special vehicles tucked away in various hidey holes until payments could be arranged, or care taken to protect future options, and other staff who saw heritage rail as nothing whatsoever to do with them, and if the preservationists couldn't come up with the costs quickly enough it was sent for scrap. To take one example - the Bluebell Railway had reserved the last LBSCR passenger coach (or something similarly historic) but it was sent for scrap by accident. BR offered the LB&SCR Directors saloon as a replacement. However the last Brighton-Built 4MT Standard 4 Tank, a class extremely closely tied to the line, was sent for scrap even despite the BRPS asking for time to secure the funds.
See also how some lines remained in situ but rusting away for years and years, whereas others were torn up almost as soon as the orders were signed.

 

[D6968]

So the NYMR didn't save the line from Pickering To Rillington because of the cost. I wonder why the county council didn't save the line. But if the NYMR saved the line, why would BR get involved?
Here is some links and quotes saying BR would get involved.

https://discover.hubpages.com/travel/TRAVEL-NORTH-54-A-BREATH-OF-NEW-LIFE-North-York-Moors-Historical-Railway-Trust-Re-opens-The-Line-From-Grosmont

https://discover.hubpages.com/travel/TRAVEL-NORTH-49-PICKERING-ROUND-TRIP-A-Look-Back-Into-The-Towns-Railway-Past

I really don’t think you understand the circumstances of the time when the line was closed. I also don’t think you understand this horrible thing called Politics.

I also don’t think that you understand that not everyone who works (or worked) on the railway is necessarily an enthusiast

There are those who are just happy to do the minimum in their job
whatever it is, but their are also those who’re prepared to stick their neck on the line and be sympathetic and try and help people out.

You only have to look at BR in the late ‘80s early ‘90s
David Ward in Special Trains could always find reasons not to do things when it suited him.
Chris Green would be happy to find reasons to do things, when it didn’t necessarily suit him at NSE.

I appreciate you seem to be passionate about the the NYMR, but there are other routes and the reason’s behind their survival I suggest you take a look at.

 

[Eyersey468]

Out of interest how much money was the line losing when it was closed?

 

[Tetchytyke]

Had the line from Pickering to Rillington been saved how many people would use the Malton/Pickering section, not many I suspect, Malton is not as tourist/holiday oriented as Pickering.

True, but Malton is on the A64 and it brings the railway much closer to the West Yorkshire conurbation. There’s also loads of room for big car parks. The road from Malton to Pickering isn’t great and parking in Pickering can best be described as interesting.

But it will never happen.

 

[zwk500]

True, but Malton is on the A64 and it brings the railway much closer to the West Yorkshire conurbation. There’s also loads of room for big car parks. The road from Malton to Pickering isn’t great and parking in Pickering can best be described as interesting.

Had the line survived about 10 more years, I think it's feasible that Pickering station could have been moved to the south side of the road and the line singled with an hourly service to York.

But it will never happen.

Indeed

 

[30907]

True, but Malton is on the A64 and it brings the railway much closer to the West Yorkshire conurbation.

What proportion of NYMR visitors are residents in WY? Even by car, it's a trek from Leeds - particularly if you want to do the Whitby trip.

There’s also loads of room for big car parks.

On the meadows by the river? You wouldn't want traffic to access those along the ex-A64 so you'd need a new link road

The road from Malton to Pickering isn’t great and parking in Pickering can best be described as interesting

Quite. A connecting bus from Malton station (like a Coastliner but serving Pickering NYMR rather than Flamingoland!) would do the job (assuming a decent train service).