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Could the "Big Four" have surivived on their own until today?

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A0

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Yes, a few post-Beeching closures and some cases where Beeching wanted to close one of two lines but for one reason or another they ended up closing the other line. Nothing like the sweeping cuts Beeching envisioned.

Fact still remains - any government at that time would have looked to reduce cuts and introduce line closures. The fact that you don't like Marples is an irrelevance.

Across Europe throughout the 20th century, rail networks were downsized - the French network was reduced by 33% - from 60,000 km to 40,000 km as an example. Ireland's reduced from 5,600 km at its height to 2,700km today, Spain from 19,000 km to 16,000 km and so on.
 
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coppercapped

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Need I remind you that the closures envisioned by Beeching in his first report were not all carry out, and that his second report was completely ignored?
Beeching's 2nd report was not 'completely ignored', rather it was the impetus behind the reduction in travel times following the introduction of the HST in the 1970s.

BR's engineering, commercial and operating departments were in the mid-1960s looking to improve the "Inter City" product offering and proposed the APT and the HST projects. As I wrote in my post #8 in the thread "Agreeing and commissioning the HST and APT projects" these were taken forward for development in 1968 - only three years after Beeching's '2nd Report' and the BRB approved the start of design work on the HST in February 1969.
 

eldomtom2

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Fact still remains - any government at that time would have looked to reduce cuts and introduce line closures. The fact that you don't like Marples is an irrelevance.
I am not the poster who made the original comment about Marples. And "cuts were necessary" does not mean "the specific cuts that happened were all necessary".
Beeching's 2nd report was not 'completely ignored', rather it was the impetus behind the reduction in travel times following the introduction of the HST in the 1970s.
Do you have any actual evidence for this? Railways across the world in the 60s and 70s were looking to cut journey times. Beeching barely mentions cutting journey times in his second report.
 

RT4038

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Fact still remains - any government at that time would have looked to reduce cuts and introduce line closures. The fact that you don't like Marples is an irrelevance.

Across Europe throughout the 20th century, rail networks were downsized - the French network was reduced by 33% - from 60,000 km to 40,000 km as an example. Ireland's reduced from 5,600 km at its height to 2,700km today, Spain from 19,000 km to 16,000 km and so on.
And across the 'Anglosphere' cuts, particularly passenger train cuts, have gone far deeper.
Yes, a few post-Beeching closures and some cases where Beeching wanted to close one of two lines but for one reason or another they ended up closing the other line. Nothing like the sweeping cuts Beeching envisioned.
Much of the sweeping cuts Beeching envisioned had happened already.

And "cuts were necessary" does not mean "the specific cuts that happened were all necessary".
Nor that some of the lines that remained should have.....
 

Dr Hoo

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Not the ones [alleged 'sweeping cuts'] in the second report.
Please, not this again.

The Trunk Routes report was primarily about long distance freight as is evident all the way through.

As the Introduction clearly states: "It should be recognised that the purpose of this study is to select routes for future intensive use, not to select lines for closure..."

It should be recalled that the Trunk Routes report was published four months into the life of the Wilson government, elected on a promise to halt major closures. It also took account of some very bullish economic and population growth forecasts, rather above rates previously achieved in the 20 years since the end of the Second World War. It was all about handling more trunk traffic, with freight increasing by 65% over the next 20 years.

Local and commuter traffic, together with shorter distance significant freight movements such as from coal mines to nearby ports and power stations was out of scope.
 

geoffk

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The railways also took part ownership in many of the British Electric Traction group companies across England, which remained private sector until 1968 as well as the Tillings companies. I'm not sure what the arrangement was with the Scottish Omnibus / Alexanders / Scottish Bus Groups.

I am aware of the (historic) existence of the Yorkshire 'Joint Omnibus Committees' that had some railway involvement, but not really sure of the detail - although it did allow Sheffield to have some Eastern Coach Works bodied buses in the (part?) BR owned fleet. ECW and Bristol products were generally restricted to public sector operators from the late 40s to late 60s, there's a bit more about it in a discussion on 'Old Bus Photos' here. Whatever allowed them to buy ECW products did not seem to apply to the (part) state owned BET companies

The railway companies had been running buses, in connection with their trains, since 1903, but the legal powers under which they did so were uncertain. To regularise the situation, the railways promoted the Railway (Road Transport) Acts of 1928, which gave the railway companies powers to provide and use motor buses in their areas of operation. The Acts also allowed the railways to enter into working agreements with bus operators. Most of the territorial bus companies in the two big groups - Tilling and BET - had railway shareholdings. The railway companies wanted a financial return from their new acquisitions. Although many benefits were claimed for the closer working between railways and buses, each side generally pursued its own interests. A factor which may have inhibited closer integration was the discrepancy between bus and railway rates of pay and the relations between the various unions which represented their workers.
 

LNW-GW Joint

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The Big 4 were diversified transport organisations (road, sea and air, as well as rail), with large property and industrial interests.
Nationalisation steadily reduced their operational sphere to just rail, with the government benefitting from the sell-off of other interests, particularly property in London.

Looking across the Atlantic, the major railroads have retained much of their pre-war diversification, particularly in property and resources (land, mines, energy etc).
Canadian Pacific was a typical integrated transport business, which now has a big US rail operation reaching into Mexico, linked to its original Canadian one.
Its hotels, ships and airline were sold off.
CP makes its money today from large-scale coal and grain shipments, plus oil products and long-distance intermodal services to/from ports.
Not much of that is relevant to the UK.
 

eldomtom2

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Please, not this again.

The Trunk Routes report was primarily about long distance freight as is evident all the way through.

As the Introduction clearly states: "It should be recognised that the purpose of this study is to select routes for future intensive use, not to select lines for closure..."

It should be recalled that the Trunk Routes report was published four months into the life of the Wilson government, elected on a promise to halt major closures. It also took account of some very bullish economic and population growth forecasts, rather above rates previously achieved in the 20 years since the end of the Second World War. It was all about handling more trunk traffic, with freight increasing by 65% over the next 20 years.

Local and commuter traffic, together with shorter distance significant freight movements such as from coal mines to nearby ports and power stations was out of scope.
I am going to quote my final post in the previous thread on this topic, which I think fairly comprehensively establishes that the Trunk Routes report did envisage sweeping cuts:
The focus of The Reshaping of British Railways and The Development Of The Major Railway Trunk Routes was different. The focus of the first was to propose (among other things) that steps be taken in the immediate future to close a large number of lines; the focus of the second was to develop a vision of what the railway should look like in twenty years and what network would be necessary to achieve that vision.

Because of this broad-level look, Beeching's expectation was presumably that it would be followed by more detailed studies, with the possibility that these studies could lead to results that meant that which routes would be developed would change - for example, he brings up North London commuter services, heavily reliant on the main lines unlike those in the southeast, as an example of something that would have to be taken to account in more planning.

Thus the value of Trunk Routes is that it is Beeching presenting his vision of what the railway of the then-future should look like. It is through this vision that we can see why most of the routes "not selected for development" would have closed under his vision, at least to passenger traffic.

Beeching is very clear in his report that he believed the railways had too many trunk routes, and that the number of them that the railway directed trains and funds into could be greatly reduced. This, then, leaves the question of what would happen to those routes not deemed one of the trunk routes of the future.

For starters, Beeching directly states that one of the goals of publishing the report is "so that any future proposals for trunk line closure, or diminutions of line utilisation, can be seen in a broader context". This is an explicit statement of a desire for further closures than those recommended in the Reshaping report (which itself was not fully implemented).

But beyond that, we can see how most of the lines "not selected for development" do not fit into his vision of the railway. First, an important thing to understand about Beeching's selection of trunk routes is that he expected the transfer of through trains onto the selected trunk routes to be total - for instance, he proposed routing traffic from Newcastle, York, etc. to Scotland not over the ECML through Berwick but instead over the Tyne Valley line and then onto the WCML.

Thus, the only remaining traffic on the routes "not selected for development" would be local services. And it is very clear what Beeching thought of local services outside of the major cities' commuter services. He repeats over and over again that the railways need to focus on "bulk movement", and provides maps showing how the proposed trunk route network links all major centres of population. With passenger traffic he is explicit as to the meaning of this:

"The role of the railways will be to concentrate upon the provision of bulk transport over routes of heavy demand, and over medium to long distances... ...while leaving shorter distances and cross country journeys to coaches and the private car."

In other words, railways cannot compete economically with road transport over the non-trunk routes and should not bother.

In addition, Beeching is explicit that one of the key purposes of selecting trunk routes is to reduce infrastructure costs. Singling lines etc. will do very little to balance the books when a line's only left with local services...
 

coppercapped

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I don't quite understand how thread concerned with the possible survival of the 'Big Four' drifted to debating Beeching yet again...

Going back to the original premise, and based on comments made in this thread, yes, it would appear that if they had not been nationalised the Grouped railways could have continued to have an independent existence after the Second World War - at least for a period. However the further away from the end of the War one gets the less recognisable the businesses would have become - all businesses evolve, they have to or they become irrelevant with changing circumstances.

The starting point for any survival would have to have been the removal of all political and legal constraints on their businesses leaving them to operate under the same legal framework as any other company in the country.

This would mean that Government no longer controlled pay scales, freight and passenger pricing or require that the railways had to carry any traffic offered. So if, for example, Birmingham wanted to continue to be served by local rail services the fare income of which did not cover the full costs of operation and depreciation then Birmingham (or some other local operator) could offer to pay the difference or buy the affected track or routes from the railway company. This latter might be difficult due to the intertwined workings but is not impossible to find a solution. Look today at the Valley Lines in South Wales. If not possible, then the service closed.

Similarly for freight services to out of the way places.

Immediately after the War the 'Trust Fund' built up during the war to cover overdue maintenance would have been paid in full giving the Big Four some little breathing space.

The main barrier to commercial success and survival would have been the lack of commercial drive which had been increasing apparent since the end of the 19th century. The slight revival seen at the end of the 1930s was snuffed out by the War - but immediately afterwards they would most likely to have tried to increase the rate of return on capital concentrating on cost reduction and income improvement.

'Cost reduction' includes both elimination of unremunerative and redundant lines and services as well as reducing costs of operation of infrastructure and trains generally. Better matching passenger and freight services to demand is the key to increasing income. None of this was unknown, Herbert Walker of the Southern was doing all the right things in the 1930s with 'clock-face' train times and electrification; the GWR was developing diesel railcars; the LMS ordered diesel shunters and prototype mainline diesel locomotives and the LNER was about to electrify some of its routes. The Metropolitan Railway was involved in encouraging property development along its routes.

Given the right leadership, in the first instance the railways would have continued to develop as transport conglomerates (stick to what you know!) - which is what they were doing until the mid-war period when nascent air and bus services were legislated away from them.

However if this entrepreneurial drive was not rediscovered then cash richer organisations may well have bought up all or parts of the railways if these organisations could see ways of using the railways' assets for a better financial return.
 

Roger1973

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A factor which may have inhibited closer integration was the discrepancy between bus and railway rates of pay and the relations between the various unions which represented their workers.

Yes - although some bus operators' staff (the only ones I'm aware of were former Tillings Group) were / are represented by the NUR / RMT rather than TGWU / Unite.

I've never known if this was a consequence of one-time railway ownership, or if another union merged with the NUR at some point in the past.
 
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