What Took Air Conditioning So Long?

[Pakenhamtrain]

Lack of investment?

It was what was best at the time.
Most of the time no one would notice the odd train being out of service. 2009 3 straight days of 40 plus just killed the fleet.

 

[DarloRich]

As mobile phones became more common, it may have been more important to provide a quiet interior. A train at speed with all the windows open can be incredibly noisy, especially with underfloor engines or corrugated rails and hopper windows.

Yes - the noise on a diesel unit with open windows can be quite a challenge - even if the cool air flow is very welcome!

Also a 158 with broken air con can be like a sweaty oven on a hot day.

Indeed so. People often say "buses smell of wee". They don't, but what they do smell of is damp and mould, because in winter they never really dry out properly. A combination of double glazing and aircon solves that completely.

A much easier answer exists: don't get the bus

(unless it is a £2 flat fare in which case DO get the bus!)

 

[43066]

I find the Networkers in winter have that sort of smell as well!

The smell is usually actual wee (or worse) in their case…

 

[DelW]

Air con in private cars is almost universal in new vehicles now, but that's a fairly recent innovation. Most of my cars were mid-range Fords, supplied new by my employer, and it wasn't until 2000 (a Mondeo GLX) that they had a/c as standard.

The majority of surviving non-air-conditioned trains were built, or at least designed, in the 1970s and 80s, when only a few of even up-market and expensive cars might have had a/c. So most people in that era wouldn't have expected it as the norm, even though mainline trains had been so equipped from the later mk2s onwards.

 

[matchmaker]

Leaving aside multiple units, an obstacle to the fitting of A/C to LHCS must surely been the lack of ETS. You couldn't have run a HVAC installation with batteries charged by a dynamo.

 

[edwin_m]

Leaving aside multiple units, an obstacle to the fitting of A/C to LHCS must surely been the lack of ETS. You couldn't have run a HVAC installation with batteries charged by a dynamo.

The Americans had steam-powered air conditioning for many years. But given the troubles BR had with boilers on diesels, I think we can all be grateful the UK didn't follow.

 

[Malcolmffc]

I don't think air conditioning is necessary on non-Intercity stock in this country, and especially not on commuter stock (for example, the 323 units in my area) and would personally prefer some kind of opening window system for these. Maybe I'm behind the times, but for sure being stuck on a train with non-functioning air conditioning and windows which don't open is the worst of all worlds, 158s for example. Yes, opening windows can cause problems of their own but in warmer weather they're effective in creating a flow of (warm) air which is usually tolerable on a stopping local service.

Try travelling on a packed 455 out of Waterloo on a scorching 30 degree day in July and then tell me it isn’t necessary. The conditions are borderline dangerous.

 

[Ken H]

A big problem with aircon is the amount of energy it uses. less now but back in the 80's the loss of power for moving the train was a concern.
and when the Southern got air con trains, their power requirement needed an upgrade to the 3rd rail and its feeders.

 

[Irascible]

Also a 158 with broken air con can be like a sweaty oven on a hot day.

Had several experiences of that even before they replaced CFCs ( including one memorable trip from Cornwall to Exeter on one engine in mid summer - can imagine how long that took given the number of banks, especially given we stopped halfway up one! ). Never managed to find a Mk3 with failed aircon, somehow.

The Americans had steam-powered air conditioning for many years. But given the troubles BR had with boilers on diesels, I think we can all be grateful the UK didn't follow.

Perhaps if we hadn't cheaped out on the boilers as usual they'd have worked better. It's basically a vibration proof steam engine, it's not like it was some new technology by then... was that perhaps the source of the 158 ( and turbostar ) a/c problems?

The railway lagging on technology started pretty early in the 20th century, and is hardly solved either - it's happening all over again with on-train software, it's like being in the early 80s culturally

 

[bramling]

Houses have walls mainly made of brick or concrete, and small windows that can be covered with curtains, so the direct rays can be blocked out. By contrast, cars have lots of glass which has to stay uncovered so that you can see out!

Aircon technology has improved, and people's expectations have changed too. When an ordinary family car has had aircon for 20 years, and coaches have had aircon as the norm since the 70s, not having aircon on trains really stands out, and not in a good way. The TfL 378s, followed by the S stock were an admission that aircon is now not an optional extra, but the default, even on urban trains used for short journeys.

It does strike me more as another example of this country living beyond its means all the time hence why everything now seems to be - by default - barely affordable.

A/C on cars is a bit of a gimmick too. I rarely use mine such to the point where I seriously question the value of maintaining it.

As I sit writing this on a non-air-conditioned LU train the ambience is absolutely perfect.

Come the few days in the summer when A/C is actually valuable, we’ll of course be reading on here about the various mobile ovens going round the network where A/C has failed, and of course KwikFit will be queuing out the door with people who suddenly want to recharge their car’s A/C. All depressingly predictable.

 

[Recessio]

The other advantage to HVAC is the ability for continuous forced ventilation (as we are now more aware of the impact of ventilation on infection transmission). Windows work well when moving but not when a train is stationary, whereas the HVAC can be pumping air even if it's not doing anything to the temperature or humidity.

To steer back to the title/topic of the thread, ventilation to prevent infection just absolutely wasn't a consideration before 2020, let alone in 1980.

 

[E27007]

I'm thinking of the power draw of AC on the locomotive, pity the poor steam loco and fireman whose shovelwork supplied steam heating, diesel-electric locos did not use their main generators to power electrical heating elements in a boiler to steam heat, they had an oil fired boiler.
A class 33 with elecdtric heating, was it a drivers's saying of you can have carriage heat or haulage power but not both?

 

[Snow1964]

The number of posts saying prefer opening windows because air con is broken is rather alarming.

Not sure if that is a reflection of badly specified systems, or polite way of saying some depots are shoddy with maintenance and repair, so they put broken trains into service.

 

[norbitonflyer]

I'm thinking of the power draw of AC on the locomotive, pity the poor steam loco and fireman whose shovelwork supplied steam heating, diesel-electric locos did not use their main generators to power electrical heating elements in a boiler to steam heat, they had an oil fired boiler.
A class 33 with elecdtric heating, was it a drivers's saying of you can have carriage heat or haulage power but not both?

A Class 33 was basically a Class 27 with the steam heat boiler removed and an extra 2 cylinders put in its place. Whether tose two cylinders were enough to generate sufficient electricity to heat the ttrain is questionable.

 

[stuu]

The number of posts saying prefer opening windows because air con is broken is rather alarming.

Not sure if that is a reflection of badly specified systems, or polite way of saying some depots are shoddy with maintenance and repair, so they put broken trains into service.

Probably a combination of both. In 30+ years regular use of GWR HSTs I can only remember it happening once. And I don't remember reading here or elsewhere anyone insisting MK3s should have opening windows installed.

My answer to the opening question is a combination of factors: summers unquestionably getting warmer, trains getting busier too which makes them more uncomfortable, and passenger expectations changing, now that AC comes as standard in cars

 

[edwin_m]

I'm thinking of the power draw of AC on the locomotive, pity the poor steam loco and fireman whose shovelwork supplied steam heating, diesel-electric locos did not use their main generators to power electrical heating elements in a boiler to steam heat, they had an oil fired boiler.
A class 33 with elecdtric heating, was it a drivers's saying of you can have carriage heat or haulage power but not both?

I get the impression that the electric supply from a diesel was more reliable than the steam supply. Also with electrification becoming more widespread, and no boilers on electric locos (except the Woodhead ones), it was becoming more sensible to fit diesels with electric heating than to have dual heating on most of the coaches.

At least the heating could be shut off if extra performance was needed for a short period. Another option is an auxiliary generator in the locomotive itself (Class 27 I think) or in a coach (common in Ireland) - probably less weight, cost and hassle than a boiler.

Probably a combination of both. In 30+ years regular use of GWR HSTs I can only remember it happening once. And I don't remember reading here or elsewhere anyone insisting MK3s should have opening windows installed.

With a Mk3 you'd open the droplights and lock the vestibule doors open. I don't recall it on HST either, but I do remember a long slow journey through Yorkshire on a Cross Country Mk2 in the 1980s when speed didn't really get up high enough to produce a through draught.

 

[bramling]

The number of posts saying prefer opening windows because air con is broken is rather alarming.

Not sure if that is a reflection of badly specified systems, or polite way of saying some depots are shoddy with maintenance and repair, so they put broken trains into service.

Combination of a few factors.

There’s certainly some trains where the system simply isn’t fit for purpose, 158 & 166 being the obvious two which routinely fail at the first hurdle, though they’re by no means the only ones which give up as soon as the weather turns warm.

But the other issue is the amount of outstabling. For fleets which don’t return to home depot that often it is always going to be difficult to keep on top of A/C beyond what travelling fitters can deal with.

There’s also the issue that A/C is not a “fit and forget” item. On the contrary it requires constant attention. The best we can seemingly do is make the system as modular as possible, so when a failure occurs it’s simply a case of changing the defective module for a good one, then repairing the defective one in the workshop. Obviously with A/C being something which doesn’t stop the train moving, it’s never going to be no.1 priority. Hence why some of us prefer opening windows, which are perfectly fit-for-purpose most of the time, and for the very small handful of days when they’re not I’m happy to grin and bear it as a fact of life. just like I have to do indoors at home or if out in the heat.

 

[RailWonderer]

A/C on cars is a bit of a gimmick too. I rarely use mine such to the point where I seriously question the value of maintaining it.

Most territories the car is sold in will need a/c.

But the other issue is the amount of outstabling. For fleets which don’t return to home depot that often it is always going to be difficult to keep on top of A/C beyond what travelling fitters can deal with.

I've had no a/c and no heating a couple of times on SWR which are known to outstable a lot despite their second to none maintenance regime so this is spot on.

 

[Chris125]

To be fair, the forced air ventilation required by TfL spec largely does solve it without aircon just by keeping the air moving.

The 484s would support that - despite some initial concern the temperature remained perfectly acceptable even on the hottest days last summer much to my surprise.

 

[Ken H]

The 484s would support that - despite some initial concern the temperature remained perfectly acceptable even on the hottest days last summer much to my surprise.

moving air cools skin better than cold air.

 

[Snow1964]

A/C on cars is a bit of a gimmick too. I rarely use mine such to the point where I seriously question the value of maintaining it.

You must live in a part of the country that is a desert. Ours stays on all year because the air dryer is part of the demisting

Of course don't need chilled air in the winter, but who wants to get in a vehicle with steamed up windows.

Our previous car never had anything fail on a/c, and never had a regas, happily doing cold air after 10 years, never serviced it. If don't turn it off might cost extra few pence in fuel each month, but you avoid getting bacteria build up, and the extra fuel is lot cheaper than fixing it or regassing because have allowed seals to dry out.

 

[Deepgreen]

The UK is in a delicate position regarding the need, or otherwise, for AC. It's rarely unbearably hot (although becoming more frequent now) and AC is not often genuinely needed/useful. However, there is another issue - that of passengers leaning out of opening windows, which is not a problem with hoppers, but used to be with toplights, which I suspect may have led to fixed windows and thus AC. Then there is the noise created by open windows, which AC obviates (except on GWR Turbos, which are noisier with AC than with opening windows!). Essentially I think our climate has not prompted AC to be adopted as early as many other countries (and thus, also, its reliability is poorer).

 

[bramling]

You must live in a part of the country that is a desert. Ours stays on all year because the air dryer is part of the demisting

Of course don't need chilled air in the winter, but who wants to get in a vehicle with steamed up windows.

Opening the windows and putting the heating on essentially resolves that issue.

Our previous car never had anything fail on a/c, and never had a regas, happily doing cold air after 10 years, never serviced it. If don't turn it off might cost extra few pence in fuel each month, but you avoid getting bacteria build up, and the extra fuel is lot cheaper than fixing it or regassing because have allowed seals to dry out.

I try and run it once a month or so, however half the time I forget. Literally the only time I'm interested in A/C is to get a blast of cold air on very hot days, which most of the time amounts to only a handful of days per year. For me, it's not worth the bother of maintaining it for this. I have always preferred simply to drive with windows open, and where necessary with heating on top of this.