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Replacement 20m DMUs - do we really need them and if so how many?

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Meerkat

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Better than closing lines.
There has to be a point where throwing extra cash to keep a marginal line open has to stop though?
No, it wouldn't, there is a corridor through the pod.
Its a bit narrow though, and could mean you waste a chunk of a short platform on the pod if the stopping points aren’t flexible. Could you end up with the disabled door in the wrong place??
Gunnislake is more than 40m long, I've found a picture of 2.150 in the platform with enough room for another full coach, let alone another 8m.
I think it’s the twistiness rather than the platforms
That Gunnislake station isn't at the nominal 'heart' of Gunnislake village isn't really a problem. The station is at the boundary with the adjacent village of Drakewalls a bit higher up the hill, near a lot of housing that continues further uphill along the A390 to St Ann's Chapel. There are local daytime buses between Tavistock and Callington serving the various Gunnislake area villages with a few journeys going further afield. The villages join up to form a largely continuous settlement for around 2 miles along the A390 corridor.
So its not essential to have the trains?
 
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Bletchleyite

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Platform at Gunnislake is fine for longer trains - the issue is the curve at Calstock which can't cope with two 23m vehicles coupled together.

That seems a bit absolute given that different vehicles have different dimensions, bogie centres and throws. Perhaps 153s, 156s and 158s won't fit, but what of whatever GWR replaces 150s with?

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There has to be a point where throwing extra cash to keep a marginal line open has to stop though?

I don't think this is the right thread to discuss Beechingist views, because there are far worse basket cases than this which are outwith the scope of this thread.

Its a bit narrow though, and could mean you waste a chunk of a short platform on the pod if the stopping points aren’t flexible. Could you end up with the disabled door in the wrong place??

No UK rolling stock at all other than 700/717s and 777s allow a wheelchair user to move between coaches. Typically the wheelchair space is at the inner end of a vehicle so would always be platformed, only I think the 185s differ from that approach.
 

61653 HTAFC

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No UK rolling stock at all other than 700/717s and 777s allow a wheelchair user to move between coaches. Typically the wheelchair space is at the inner end of a vehicle so would always be platformed, only I think the 185s differ from that approach.
The ASDO system on the 185s has presented a slight headache for crews due to where the wheelchair spaces are: despite the fact that they do fit, since the ASDO system went live the last set of doors on 185s doesn't release at Huddersfield platform 6. If the composite coach with the wheelchair space is at that end and a wheelchair user wishes to board or alight, the crew have to manually override the system.

Oh, and 378s also allow wheelchairs to move between vehicles, though there's probably some standard that they don't technically meet.
 

Meerkat

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I don't think this is the right thread to discuss Beechingist views, because there are far worse basket cases than this which are outwith the scope of this thread.
It was actually one of my reasons for this thread!
If northern don’t NEED a decent number of 20m DMUs, and all GWR services except this one/two branch(es) are better off with 23/24m DMUs then can the branch rather than spend a load of money developing specialist stock.
No UK rolling stock at all other than 700/717s and 777s allow a wheelchair user to move between coaches. Typically the wheelchair space is at the inner end of a vehicle so would always be platformed, only I think the 185s differ from that approach.
it’s niche problem territory but I was pondering whether you could get a short platform filled by the ‘wrong end’ and the power pack, so the disabled door didn’t reach.
probably niche enough that you would fix it if Stadlers were the cheapest solution otherwise.
If your limit is 80m what’s the capacity of a <80m Stadler v 2x150?
 

Bletchleyite

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If your limit is 80m what’s the capacity of a <80m Stadler v 2x150?

If your limit was 80m you'd probably just use 3 x 24m which is 72m. Those 8m won't make much difference when you consider space not lost on extra cabs and bogs. Along those lines I think Northern consider 319s (4x20), 323s (3x23) and 331s (3x24) basically interchangeable.
 

Meerkat

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If your limit was 80m you'd probably just use 3 x 24m which is 72m. Those 8m won't make much difference when you consider space not lost on extra cabs and bogs. Along those lines I think Northern consider 319s (4x20), 323s (3x23) and 331s (3x24) basically interchangeable.
Great sell to the Treasury too - ‘Look, we have been efficient and reduced the number of coaches we need to order!
Only issue would be services losing the mix of 2x20 and 4x20, and the ability to cut back to 2x20 off peak.
 

Trainbike46

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It was actually one of my reasons for this thread!
If northern don’t NEED a decent number of 20m DMUs, and all GWR services except this one/two branch(es) are better off with 23/24m DMUs then can the branch rather than spend a load of money developing specialist stock.
As has been stated already, there is already 20(ish)m stock available off the shelf, and more/different stock could be developed if that would be better/cheaper/otherwise more desirable.

I maintain that closing ANY line because of an odd obsession with 23/24/26m stock, is absurd. There is no reason why 20(ish)m stock can't continue existing.

It gives the impression you are trying really hard to come up with increasingly unlikely reasons why there cannot be a replacement for the 150 when they reach end of life. whether this is because you have a vendetta against 20m car bodies or against the branch lines that require them, I'm not sure about. Maybe you could enlighten me?

it’s niche problem territory but I was pondering whether you could get a short platform filled by the ‘wrong end’ and the power pack, so the disabled door didn’t reach.
probably niche enough that you would fix it if Stadlers were the cheapest solution otherwise.
If your limit is 80m what’s the capacity of a <80m Stadler v 2x150?

an 80.7m 4 car 755 has 202 seats + 27 tip-up seats = 229 seats in a low-density layout. a 80m 4 car 150 has 2*147 seats= 300ish seats in a high-density layout
 
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Meerkat

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I maintain that closing ANY line because of an odd obsession with 23/24/26m stock, is absurd. There is no reason why 20(ish)m stock can't continue existing.

It gives the impression you are trying really hard to come up with increasingly unlikely reasons why there cannot be a replacement for the 150 when they reach end of life. whether this is because you have a vendetta against 20m car bodies or against the branch lines that require them, I'm not sure about. Maybe you could enlighten me?
No obsession, that’s why I was asking whether there is a need for them elsewhere to justify the expense of another stock type.
No good saying Stadler can do it if GWR and northern decide they want an all 23/24m Civity fleet - ludicrous would be a different stock type just for one or two very minor lines. Either fix the infrastructure (probably possible at Looe) or close it (the ridiculous bit beyond Calstock).
an 80.7m 4 car 755 has 202 seats + 27 tip-up seats = 229 seats in a low-density layout. a 80m 4 car 150 has 2*147 seats= 300ish seats in a high-density layout
Thats quite a difference (noting it’s a low v high density comparison). And the 755 is a fixed 80m - which would look a bit silly on the Looe branch in winter!
 

61653 HTAFC

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Thats quite a difference (noting it’s a low v high density comparison). And the 755 is a fixed 80m - which would look a bit silly on the Looe branch in winter!
The obvious solution is a 3-car Flirt but with a higher-density layout for Looe. St. Ives and Falmouth would presumably justify a 4-car, but with a similar high-density layout.
 

Meerkat

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The obvious solution is a 3-car Flirt but with a higher-density layout for Looe. St. Ives and Falmouth would presumably justify a 4-car, but with a similar high-density layout.
Why is that more obvious than Alstom/CAF/Siemens offering a 20m version of a 23/24m DMU for regional services? A more efficient use of length.
 

Greybeard33

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Why is that more obvious than Alstom/CAF/Siemens offering a 20m version of a 23/24m DMU for regional services? A more efficient use of length.
Modern diesel engines are bulkier than those of the 150 because of all the emission control equipment required. Porterbrook managed to squeeze Stage IIIB compliant engines under the 20m driving trailers of a 769, but that unit has the traction motors and ancillaries under the centre two vehicles. Is there any evidence that the there is enough space between the bogies of a 20m vehicle to fit in a Stage V engine, powertrain and other equipment?
 

Bletchleyite

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Modern diesel engines are bulkier than those of the 150 because of all the emission control equipment required. Porterbrook managed to squeeze Stage IIIB compliant engines under the 20m driving trailers of a 769, but that unit has the traction motors and ancillaries under the centre two vehicles. Is there any evidence that the there is enough space between the bogies of a 20m vehicle to fit in a Stage V engine, powertrain and other equipment?

Depends how big an engine you want. The engine of a bus is fitted into a far, far smaller space.
 

Meerkat

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Modern diesel engines are bulkier than those of the 150 because of all the emission control equipment required. Porterbrook managed to squeeze Stage IIIB compliant engines under the 20m driving trailers of a 769, but that unit has the traction motors and ancillaries under the centre two vehicles. Is there any evidence that the there is enough space between the bogies of a 20m vehicle to fit in a Stage V engine, powertrain and other equipment?
That was one of the questions in my starter for this thread? :D

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Depends how big an engine you want. The engine of a bus is fitted into a far, far smaller space.
Would a hybrid solution be easier to fit - smaller engine plus battery packs that can be almost any size/shape?
 

Trainbike46

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I think it is pretty clear you could make it fit under a 20m car. Whether the full new design would be worth making, when considering against an existing design such as the FLIRT will of course depend on other needs.

It's of note that the 755/231/756s were not ordered for routes that are restricted to 20m vehicles, and that is because these units have quite a lot going for them in other areas, such as level boarding, bimode/trimode capability, and easy potential for future upgrades/replacement of power source, among others

Thats quite a difference (noting it’s a low v high density comparison). And the 755 is a fixed 80m - which would look a bit silly on the Looe branch in winter!
The 755s are truly a low density set-up, aiming for comfort. 2+2 seats that match SWR first class seats, 2 wheelchair spaces, 2 toilets, and 6 bike spaces. if needed for GWR/northern/whoever else, a much higher density interior could be used

Also note I cited the seat numbers for the GWR 150s, which are the highest-density ones. Northern has some 150s with only 124 seats per unit/248 for an 80m pair
 

Trainbike46

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GWR's 150s are surely the lowest density, with 2+2 seating and tables at a reasonable pitch? Do they also have some original layout /2s?
I quoted the numbers from wikipedia, which lists this:
Capacity

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with the GWR source being and old First Great Western website, and the Northern source being a franchise agreement from 2014.

Of course, these numbers may be out of date, in which case, does anyone know where to get more recent or more accurate figures
 

Bletchleyite

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I think Wiki is wrong - I'd think GWR's 2+2 units are the 124 or 131 and Northern's 3+2 ones the 147 (/1) and 149 (/2).

I'm inclined to say that for these branches a 3 car 24m unit with a mixed layout might work best - some facing, some airline, some side facing and large standbacks - in the quiet winter everyone will get a seat to their preference, in the busy summer there'll be plenty of standing room. The mixed layout of the LNR 230s would probably fit well.
 

Trainbike46

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I think Wiki is wrong - I'd think GWR's 2+2 units are the 124 or 131 and Northern's 3+2 ones the 147 (/1) and 149 (/2).
the 124 seats is correctly taken from the source though. Where units swapped between northern/gwr, or the GWR ones refurbished since/during First Great Western days?
 

Bletchleyite

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the 124 seats is correctly taken from the source though. Where units swapped between northern/gwr, or the GWR ones refurbished since/during First Great Western days?

I believe the 2+2 layout was installed by Wales and West/Wessex Trains.

Going from memory, a non bog /2 coach has 7 "double rows" of 10 plus 4 side facing, total 74, while a /1 has 6 bays of 10 and long side facing benches in the van area, probably giving you a similar number. Go 2+2 on the /2 layout as GWR did and you're on 60 in a non bog coach, so well under 120 in a full unit for an accessible bog in the other coach.

Are those higher numbers maybe 3 car units then?
 

The Ham

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Would a hybrid solution be easier to fit - smaller engine plus battery packs that can be almost any size/shape?

I do wonder whether if the battery trail (class 230 but likely ultimately for other unit classes) which GWR are undertaking could resolve the need for a DMU based 20m train.

You may need to have a couple of charging points and/or a reasonable run under wires for some routes but for the Cornish branches which need 20m stock the lines are likely to be fairly short in length.

As there's a chance you'll be using part of a much larger fleet some of the risks from micro fleets become less of an issue. Especially if you can use the straight EMU versions for other services (something which Northern probably could do), ideally serviced at the same location, however even nearby would still lower the risks.
 

pokemonsuper9

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I feel like it's gonna end up either Hydrogen or Batteries for many of the Cornish Branches.
I think that's what new 20m trains will be, since if they want to get rid of diesel's I think they'll need one of those options.
Although I expect they're gonna hold onto 150s til they're forced away from them.
 

Meerkat

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I feel like it's gonna end up either Hydrogen or Batteries for many of the Cornish Branches.
I think that's what new 20m trains will be, since if they want to get rid of diesel's I think they'll need one of those options.
Although I expect they're gonna hold onto 150s til they're forced away from them.
Apparently the issue is the very short turnaround on the St Ives branch - anyone worked out if the Greenford fast charge is fast enough?
All battery would presumably be easier to fit in than an engine in a 20m unit.
But the big question is do we really need 20m units or can we standardise on 23m?
It's of note that the 755/231/756s were not ordered for routes that are restricted to 20m vehicles, and that is because these units have quite a lot going for them in other areas, such as level boarding, bimode/trimode capability, and easy potential for future upgrades/replacement of power source, among others
What the Stadlers don’t have going for them is a UK factory. If they got the GWR/Northern/SWR order then that is likely to kill at least one of the UK factories, making it politically brave, if not courageous.
 

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the 124 seats is correctly taken from the source though. Where units swapped between northern/gwr, or the GWR ones refurbished since/during First Great Western days?
I believe the 2+2 layout was installed by Wales and West/Wessex Trains.

Going from memory, a non bog /2 coach has 7 "double rows" of 10 plus 4 side facing, total 74, while a /1 has 6 bays of 10 and long side facing benches in the van area, probably giving you a similar number. Go 2+2 on the /2 layout as GWR did and you're on 60 in a non bog coach, so well under 120 in a full unit for an accessible bog in the other coach.

Are those higher numbers maybe 3 car units then?
Sorry I meant the 147 for GWR was in fact listed on the first great western websit. It may be right that the higher numbers are in fact for the 3car units, in which case the 755s are competitive for capacity compared to 150s even in the low-density GA layout

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I feel like it's gonna end up either Hydrogen or Batteries for many of the Cornish Branches.
I think that's what new 20m trains will be, since if they want to get rid of diesel's I think they'll need one of those options.
Although I expect they're gonna hold onto 150s til they're forced away from them.
Batteries would seem like the best option for the cornish branches. All assessments show battery units as a lot cheaper, and the characteristics of the branches in cornwall aren't of the type to require hydrogen

In particular, if we electrify the Cornwall mainline (it is probably busy enough to justify that in the long term), and then co-opt the overhead at the mainline for charging the branch battery units
 

Greybeard33

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That was one of the questions in my starter for this thread? :D
Indeed it was, but I do not think anyone has yet answered that question.....
Interesting you mention 230s. For all their faults they did get engines under an 18m bodyshell, and one with a deep underframe at that.
Two small automotive engines under a 230 carriage, which have proved appallingly unreliable on the Marston Vale. It remains to be seen if the TfW hybrid version achieves better reliability, if it ever enters service.
Where units swapped between northern/gwr, or the GWR ones refurbished since/during First Great Western days?
Some GWR 150s have certainly been cascaded to Northern since 2016, including 3-car examples.
 

AlastairFraser

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So its not essential to have the trains?
It is, from Gunnislake and Calstock themselves, there is a lot of peak commuter and schools traffic heading towards Plymouth which has no reasonable alternative (**** road quality means a much extended journey time if you were to run RRBs).
The best solution longer term is tram train like vehicles (say a Vossloh/Stadler citylink) with this Fast Charge technology.
 

Meerkat

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It is, from Gunnislake and Calstock themselves, there is a lot of peak commuter and schools traffic heading towards Plymouth which has no reasonable alternative (**** road quality means a much extended journey time if you were to run RRBs).
The best solution longer term is tram train like vehicles (say a Vossloh/Stadler citylink) with this Fast Charge technology.
The best solution is to improve the roads/buses, rather than throw money at a special edition tram train for a rural branch! There can't be "a lot of" traffic on a line that doesn't even have double figures trips a day, in a 150 - between them the two stations don't get 50,000 passengers a year.
Bere Alston is only a mile away if they opened the viaduct to walking and cycling (it would probably attract more tourists as a walkway than a railway!)
 
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