UK switching to electric vehicles discussion

[reddragon]

I've not been keeping up with this thread, but the worry with the push for battery cars (I refuse to call them "electric" because they aren't) is that only the well-off will have access to them. Not only due to the cost of the vehicles themselves, but access to off-road parking for overnight recharging. The carbon emissions from terrestrial transport, whether private IC cars or diesel trains, is a tiny fraction of total carbon emissions compared with things like power generation, but governments want to be seen to be doing "something" and targeting transport is a much easier sell than building a load of nuclear power stations- something that sooner or later will need to happen.

As things stand, the push towards battery powered vehicles will price large segments of the population off the roads. Unless there's a step-change in public transport provision to counteract this, I predict widespread civil unrest.

Been reading The Sun or Mail again?

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If anyone can tell me how someone in a 10th floor flat is going to be able to securely charge their EV overnight, I'll be all ears...

As same as they do in Norway where laws have required facilities to be provided at the same cost as home owners.

 

[jon0844]

Management companies are going to want to build charging facilities for their leaseholders/tenants to ensure they are desirable, just as you'd want to make sure you're now offering fibre connectivity for broadband.

It isn't even that expensive as home chargers don't need to be rapid ones.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Simple. EVSE at their allocated parking space, secured by RFID card.

Tell me you don't know what it's actually like living in a typical British council-owned residential block, without telling me you don't know what it's actually like living in a typical British council-owned residential block.

Local councils can't even satisfactorily fill pot-holes, they're not going to be able to boost charging facilities to a level where everyone will have access to them.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 19 Feb 2023 ==

Management companies are going to want to build charging facilities for their leaseholders/tenants to ensure they are desirable, just as you'd want to make sure you're now offering fibre connectivity for broadband.

It isn't even that expensive as home chargers don't need to be rapid ones.

Private management companies do the absolute bare minimum, and only then after you've spent months complaining.

 

[jon0844]

Some councils are very proactive and some aren't. If you're not happy with your service, remember that come the next election.

In my case, the local council manages housing and the county council manages the highways.

Likewise, leaseholders should have a say in what a private management company does.

 

[skyhigh]

they're not going to be able to boost charging facilities to a level where everyone will have access to them.

In your opinion.

Only a small proportion of people will be in a situation where they need to use the full range of their car on a daily basis and need a charge every day. You don't need a charger for every single car. Some people will be able to charge at work, some will need to charge at home. For others (say in a council flat with no dedicated parking) the council could run a scheme where residents get free parking while using a charger in a local car park. There are ways to make it work.

And before the "how will the council fund installing chargers" argument comes in, there are plenty of private companies who are doing this kind of thing - such as Ubitricity, Source London and others. Look at Europe for an example where apartment living is more common - plenty of bays with 6 or so chargers on street in city centres.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

I expect that Private Eye's "Rotten Boroughs" section will have plenty of material over the coming years with regard to dodgy contractors in charge of installing charging points...

 

[GLC]

If anyone can tell me how someone in a 10th floor flat is going to be able to securely charge their EV overnight, I'll be all ears...

As someone who lives in a second floor flat, with on street parking, who also owns an EV, perhaps I can explain: I take it to the public charger that's a 5 minute walk from my flat, and plug it in.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

As someone who lives in a second floor flat, with on street parking, who also owns an EV, perhaps I can explain: I take it to the public charger that's a 5 minute walk from my flat, and plug it in.

What do you do if that charger is already in use (or otherwise unavailable) and you've a long trip planned in the morning?

If in ten years time charging infrastructure really has improved to the level that it needs to, and the cost of battery vehicles has fallen to the level that people on low incomes can buy a cheap pre-owned one with a battery that isn't completely fried, I'll be more than happy to come back on this thread and eat humble pie. I just don't have any faith that local or national government will actually be able to make the transition possible for a large chunk of the population.

 

[jon0844]

A modern EV battery is likely to be good for over a million miles, as has already been proven on many cars, so why do you think they'll be fried?

Battery chemistry is also improving year on year so will only get better, while you'll have third party options to refurbish batteries so you don't need to pay for a whole new battery at retail prices.

An EV really isn't that complicated. A battery and motor. Electric motors have existed for over a century and batteries have been powering your phone, tablet and laptop for decades - with the same sort of improvements (so you could buy the upcoming Realme GT3 240w that will charge from 0-100% in ten minutes and last 1600 full charges without a significant degradation).

 

[AM9]

What do you do if that charger is already in use (or otherwise unavailable) and you've a long trip planned in the morning?

If in ten years time charging infrastructure really has improved to the level that it needs to, and the cost of battery vehicles has fallen to the level that people on low incomes can buy a cheap pre-owned one with a battery that isn't completely fried, I'll be more than happy to come back on this thread and eat humble pie. I just don't have any faith that local or national government will actually be able to make the transition possible for a large chunk of the population.

Well if it isn't as perfect as you think it needs to be everybody will have three choices:

1) move house to somewhere where cars can be charged fully overnight every night, then install a 7kW smart charger​

2) make other arrangements for your travel needs, - public transport​

3) emigrate to one of the many countries where your ideal EV provisions are​

one choice you won't have for long is to carry on as you can now with polluting vehicles.

 

[Energy]

I expect that Private Eye's "Rotten Boroughs" section will have plenty of material over the coming years with regard to dodgy contractors in charge of installing charging points...

What? Councils already need electricians so it won't make too much difference.

 

[PeterC]

Once new ICE vehicles stop being built properties without personal or at least local charging are going to be a drag on the market.

 

[skyhigh]

and the cost of battery vehicles has fallen to the level that people on low incomes can buy a cheap pre-owned one with a battery that isn't completely fried

We're going round and round in circles on this thread now.

The battery warranty on my car is for 8 years or 100,000 miles and guarantees that the battery will still hold 80% of original capacity. After 2 years and 30,000 miles it's still showing 98% battery health remaining, and as it's a lease car it's done plenty of rapid charging and I always charge it to 100% at home.

The battery will long outlive the rest of the car in some kind of battery storage, somewhere.

 

[Ken H]

Once new ICE vehicles stop being built properties without personal or at least local charging are going to be a drag on the market.

or people will but an ICE car just before the 'all new cars are EV's) and make it last. ICE cars will be around for 20 years after that. Thats not counting people who buy an ICE car abroad and bring it here.

 

[AM9]

or people will but an ICE car just before the 'all new cars are EV's) and make it last. ICE cars will be around for 20 years after that. Thats not counting people who buy an ICE car abroad and bring it here.

Maybe true, but the freedom to driver everywhere might not be, nor fuel at a competitive price once the volume starts dropping. There seems to be this vision/dream/hope (actually more like wishful thinking) that there will be a glowing future for those that stick with IC cars can waft past queues at charging stations on their way to a local garage where the fuel is cheaper because there's so much less damand. Once the demand for hydrocarbon fuels decreases, the supply chain will scale down such that distribution becomes expensive, and access to service stations is restricted to motorway service areas and larger towns only - that is if the local authority hasn't tightened up on ULEZ restrictions!
So yes the last IC vehicles can be made to last, but more as a museum exhibit rather than a cost-effective method of transport.

 

[jon0844]

Only prestigious ICE cars will be worth keeping on the road, and most owners won't be the people too worried about the higher cost of fuel.

I fill my car about once a month, so I am not sure why some people think an EV owner needs to charge every day. I'd expect that based on my driving, I'd maybe need to charge once every two to three weeks.

 

[AM9]

Only prestigious ICE cars will be worth keeping on the road, and most owners won't be the people too worried about the higher cost of fuel.

I fill my car about once a month, so I am not sure why some people think an EV owner needs to charge every day. I'd expect that based on my driving, I'd maybe need to charge once every two to three weeks.

There will be just as many prestigious EVs once the smell and noise of IC cars become unacceptable to all.

 

[Bletchleyite]

There will be just as many prestigious EVs once the smell and noise of IC cars become unacceptable to all.

EVs already have much of the premium market. There'll be classics, but probably on some sort of occasional use licence so they can't be used as daily drivers.

 

[trebor79]

Maybe true, but the freedom to driver everywhere might not be, nor fuel at a competitive price once the volume starts dropping. There seems to be this vision/dream/hope (actually more like wishful thinking) that there will be a glowing future for those that stick with IC cars can waft past queues at charging stations on their way to a local garage where the fuel is cheaper because there's so much less demand. Once the demand for hydrocarbon fuels decreases, the supply chain will scale down such that distribution becomes expensive,

Exactly correct. One of my other interests is light aviation. Avgas currently costs way over £2/l, even though the underlying fuel cost is approximately equal to road fuel, and the duty charged is much lower than road fuel. It's a relatively low volume product produced in one or two refineries in Europe and has a long supply chain. There is the added complication that the leaded varieties have to be kept completely separate from unleaded road fuels (so dedicated tankers an storage facilities), but even the unleaded versions are no cheaper.
Plus, as demand collapses and industry stops reinvesting in sourcing and refining crude, the price pressure will be up.

 

[stuu]

or people will but an ICE car just before the 'all new cars are EV's) and make it last. ICE cars will be around for 20 years after that. Thats not counting people who buy an ICE car abroad and bring it here.

All diesels and petrol cars older than 2014 are banned from Paris from next year (all of it, not just the centre), with the plan being no ICE cars after 2030. That sort of level of emissions control is very likely to happen in all major urban areas in the next decade.

 

[E27007]

From that blurred shot I can't place that. Can you give me a clue as to where in St Albans that is please?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 19 Feb 2023 ==


No it won't because:

a) the price of fuel will rise whether demand for carbon fuels diminishes or not​

b) the availability of IC vehicles will rapidly diminish when all new cars are no longer manufactured​

c) the ability of polluting vehicles to freely use the road network will both become expensive and impossible in some areas, (ULEZs in many residential areas), - not just in London but many other towns and cities. That will be in response to public pressure as well as environmental commitment imperatives.​

Do you believe that electricity for battery vehicles will continue to be taxed at the current 5% Vat?
Fuel duties are a significant and lucrative source of revenue for the Chancellor How will the Chancellor plug the gap of fuel duty revenue by the relacement of IC vehicles by EVs?

 

[Ken H]

All diesels and petrol cars older than 2014 are banned from Paris from next year (all of it, not just the centre), with the plan being no ICE cars after 2030. That sort of level of emissions control is very likely to happen in all major urban areas in the next decade.

Major urban areas you say. But there are vast swathes of the uk that are smaĺl towns, villages and isolated houses. Often historic. Often protected by conservation areas.

 

[Bald Rick]

Fuel duties are a significant and lucrative source of revenue for the Chancellor How will the Chancellor plug the gap of fuel duty revenue by the relacement of IC vehicles by EVs?

Road pricing.

 

[AM9]

Road pricing.

This time you beat me to it. Yes, given the difficulty in discriminating between different types of loads, whatever VAT is applied to electricity, it will be irrespective of the load type. Add that to the fact that nobody can tax energy from PV panels in an off-grid system.

I believe that Road Pricing for all vehicles (even IC types) will become the norm, - probably eventually with charge rates that are variable with time of day, geographical locations and even traffic levels.

 

[stuu]

Major urban areas you say. But there are vast swathes of the uk that are smaĺl towns, villages and isolated houses. Often historic. Often protected by conservation areas.

Of course. But they will become increasingly less popular as their geographical range is limited. The ban on leaded petrol is a reasonable comparison, 14 years between the introduction of a replacement and it's banning

 

[E27007]

This time you beat me to it. Yes, given the difficulty in discriminating between different types of loads, whatever VAT is applied to electricity, it will be irrespective of the load type. Add that to the fact that nobody can tax energy from PV panels in an off-grid system.

I believe that Road Pricing for all vehicles (even IC types) will become the norm, - probably eventually with charge rates that are variable with time of day, geographical locations and even traffic levels.

The new Galileo GPS system funded by the EU has the ability of bi-directional exchange of information of position, therefore it may find use as a tool for road pricing system for vehicle use

 

[BananaRepublic]

Is the cost and complexity of attempting the live tracking of millions of vehicles, really worth the effort?
Never mind the issues of privacy and personal rights etc.

Replacing fuel duty is an extremely difficult problem to solve, so why not a radical, but simple solution?……just abandon the idea and look to replace the tax income from other sources, instead of going down rabbit holes, which will extremely expensive to implement, will incurs ongoing costs and can never really be totally reliable or effective.

 

[GLC]

What do you do if that charger is already in use (or otherwise unavailable) and you've a long trip planned in the morning?

In my case, the council have fitted 15 free to use rapid chargers about a 10 minute drive from my flat. So I will typically take it there and sit in the car for 30 mins, which will get it to about 90%ish. However, within the last 6 months 3 separate rapid charging sites have opened within 5 mins of my flat. Two supermarkets and a petrol station now have rapid chargers at them. These of course cost money to use compared to the council chargers, but if I'm really in a rush that's my preference.

It's not as fast as refilling with petrol of course, but the speed is acceptably fast enough to me to just plan driving to the supermarket one day to charge it when it's needed. (My car is an older model that can only rapid charge at 50kW, which is the bare minimum rapid charge speed. In practice this means I have no preference for which rapid charger to use, since they all are capable of higher speeds than my car can accept)

 

[Bletchleyite]

Is the cost and complexity of attempting the live tracking of millions of vehicles, really worth the effort?
Never mind the issues of privacy and personal rights etc.

Replacing fuel duty is an extremely difficult problem to solve, so why not a radical, but simple solution?……just abandon the idea and look to replace the tax income from other sources, instead of going down rabbit holes, which will extremely expensive to implement, will incurs ongoing costs and can never really be totally reliable or effective.

The way I would do it is a tax on all parking other than off street at home, and the abolition of all free "destination" and on street parking, in large urban areas. This would help rural areas which often lack public transport and encourage park and ride use. No point driving if you can't park.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

The way I would do it is a tax on all parking other than off street at home, and the abolition of all free "destination" and on street parking, in large urban areas. This would help rural areas which often lack public transport and encourage park and ride use. No point driving if you can't park.

Which again, punishes the less well-off who can't afford to live in places with driveways. Or, increases the number of front gardens being concreted over to provide off-street parking, which increases the likelihood of flooding.

Going back to the charging issue, my own local authority has barely done anything to increase the number of charging points- the only ones are outside businesses such as supermarkets, there's nothing on residential streets at all so creating a trip hazard isn't even an option.

I stand by my point that battery vehicles are going to price poorer people off the roads unless there's a huge push towards providing such facilities, something that is barely talked about by the council themselves. All these so-called solutions are dripping in privilege.