What (if anything) was wrong with the IEP procurement?

[coppercapped]

Interesting to note that, at an outside glance, Hitachi now only have a 25% shareholding in Agility Trains. Indeed in 2020 they reduced their own holding of ATE from 40%.
https://www.agilitytrains.com/about

That, I must admit, had passed me by...

I'll have to think a bit longer about its significance.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

No it's not just you. It makes sense. You don't expect a miracle but 40+ years on you do expect a level of progress.

Maybe the progress is more obvious externally (eg no slam doors with external handles, or dump toilets).
The Mk3 maintainers had a miserable job working on the splattered train undersides.
The IEP routes are considerably cleaner and quieter than they were with HSTs.

The DfT team also specified the Thameslink class 700 - they seem to be more of a success with the cognoscenti.
And the DfT then moved on to HS2 stock, choosing the same supplier as the IEP.
Meanwhile the TOC/Rosco leasing route has given us, as well as more 80x, the CAF 397 and Mk5 intercity fleets, plus assorted Civitys, Aventras, Flirts and Desiro Citys.

 

[Master29]

On the whole though I can entirely agree with this conclusion. Not necessarily incompetence, but definitely naïvety.

I would rather think incompetence. After so many years I find it hard to believe it would simply be naivety.

Maybe the progress is more obvious externally (eg no slam doors with external handles, or dump toilets).
The Mk3 maintainers had a miserable job working on the splattered train undersides.
The IEP routes are considerably cleaner and quieter than they were with HSTs.

Agreed but they hardly constitute much for a 40 years development period. All those things were around some 40 years ago.

 

[XAM2175]

I would rather think incompetence. After so many years I find it hard to believe it would simply be naivety.

What do you mean "After so many years"?

 

[Master29]

What do you mean "After so many years"?

The many years it took to produce a successor to the HST.

 

[irish_rail]

Travelled on an 800 today, and had to sit on 3 seats before I sat on one where the base of the cushion hadn't collapsed causing me to be sitting completely on the metal bar below. Extremely uncomfortable, and they will only get worse with age. Surely something needs to be looked at regarding replacing the seats in the medium term at least. They are shocking in some cases now.

 

[PG]

Travelled on an 800 today, and had to sit on 3 seats before I sat on one where the base of the cushion hadn't collapsed causing me to be sitting completely on the metal bar below. Extremely uncomfortable, and they will only get worse with age. Surely something needs to be looked at regarding replacing the seats in the medium term at least. They are shocking in some cases now.

That is surely something which should fall to the maintainer i.e. Hitachi to rectify as the train (or part of it) isn't in a serviceable condition.
Are you able to report it without any repercussions?

 

[irish_rail]

That is surely something which should fall to the maintainer i.e. Hitachi to rectify as the train (or part of it) isn't in a serviceable condition.
Are you able to report it without any repercussions?

Probably, but there are so many seats that are knackered now, I'm pretty sure it'd be ignored, after all Hitachi have bigger problems. Passenger comfort isn't up there sadly.

 

[Meerkat]

You would think that Hitachi would be responsible for supplying usable seats for the 27 odd years they are getting paid no?

 

[Krokodil]

I think this is an unfair, and barely-relevant, comparison. The beer test, which is an excerpt (at 1 minute 40) from this information video on the Leopard 2's weapons stabilisation system, shows the results of a design objective along the lines of "allow accurate use of the main gun even when the vehicle is in motion because this is a life-or-death necessity in combat". You could impose a similar requirement that an IEP be capable of running more smoothly than anything else before it, but the necessity for it is less clear-cut and it'll have some effect on cost.

I would say that ride quality is still a pretty important factor on an intercity train.

Mind you, it should be even more important on a sleeper...

 

[PG]

You would think that Hitachi would be responsible for supplying usable seats for the 27 odd years they are getting paid no?

Probably, but there are so many seats that are knackered now, I'm pretty sure it'd be ignored, after all Hitachi have bigger problems. Passenger comfort isn't up there sadly.

I'm not saying they haven't got bigger problems but by all accounts the contract is pretty costly and inflexible so they should be held to it.
I wonder is the base of the cushions checked on the 36 day exam?

 

[YorksLad12]

Yes I suppose that's the nature of my complaints really. It's average whilst what went before was good to excellent. I used a Mk4 for the first time since probably early 2020 a couple of months ago and the interior was just nicer. The lighting was that bit warmer, the seats were that bit more comfortable (yes, subjective), the ride a little bit smoother, the socket worked throughout the journey, the general ambiance was that bit nicer. It all added up to a good product. There wasn't anything especially wrong with the Azuma I had used that morning. It was just meh.

It amuses me still that the Mk4s (and Mk3s) by the end of their mass usage with LNER could provide real time updates on loadings on PIS screens and could even give an indiation of which specific seats might be empty by signing into the on train wifi. Whilst, as far as I'm aware, the IETs just show the reservation level (happy to be corrected!) on station PIS and certainly there's no facility to suggest which seats are empty. Progress? Another thing that gets me are incongruities with the interior finishes. You have lovely damped coat hooks so they gently ease back into the closed position. But then right next to them you have (what I assume are) screw holes in the panels just open. Could these not have been capped? You showed great care and attention to the coat hook but not the interior panels?

Are either of these issues such that every time I get on the train I internally rage about them and they ruin my journey? No, of course not. It just feels like a symptom of the lack of care and attention to the product that should be on offer. It's just meh.

Really, you need that seat-emptiness information while you're waiting on the platform, then you can scoot over to where the carriage/coach should be. In the days of reservation slips you could look in through the window and see where the gaps were; you can only do that now for seats across the aisle, not closest to the platform because you can't see the lights on that side. Progress, hey.

The coat hooks on the 800 series are another issue. No-one uses them because (a) no-one realises they are there;(b) because they're awkwardly positioned; and (c) not every window seat gets on.

 

[jimm]

Try coming down to the south west Jimm and actually asking someone how they feel when a full and standing 5 car unit turns up. Funnily enough the prospect of over 3 hours of standing in a vestibule does not fill them with joy. But you make a good point, perhaps substituting turbos onto the cotswold where available is a good way forward if it can displace any available 9s or 10s to serve the south west. Probably need to train up a few Worcester men on turbos first, but if it means the main routes get decent length trains then I'm all up for it.

The former golden hind also doubles as first off peak train off Reading into London and therefore would be completely inappropriate as a 5 car train , although admittedly that particular train is quietish until Reading presumably as it is a peak service.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 16 Feb 2023 ==


I'm seriously suggesting that customers paying 100 quid plus for a ticket deserve for their train to be formed of the correct number of coaches
, pity the thought. It was never an issue down here prior to IETs, but these wonderful 5 car sets have led to it now being a "thing" . Similarly before December there were more 9 cars about down here and 5 car substitutions were less common, but since the timetable change and increase in 10s instead of 9s surprise surprise there are more short forms. It will only get worse as castle HSTs begin to be withdrawn in numbers.....

And how do you think people elsewhere on the GWR network feel when a full and standing five-car unit turns up instead of a 2x5 or a 9-car?

Ah yes, they're just 'commuters', so they don't count - as we can see from your juvenile comments about Turbos.

And you will keep going on about three-hour journey times - doesn't anyone get on or off Paddington trains at Taunton, Exeter or Newton Abbot these days?

I like the new twist about what people paying £100 for a ticket deserve (surely are 'entitled' to?).

Have you looked up what peak fares from Bristol, South Wales and even the backwater of the Cotswold Line cost these days? I would have expected you have an encyclopaedic knowledge of them, given your considerable experience of the Cotswold Line.

Good old Jimm, the Worcester corridor hero and West of England villain. I would willingly wait another hour rather than being stuck on a sweaty 5 car train with no chance of any catering for a 5 hour journey but I suppose being from the South West I am entitled.

I'm not the person who thinks passengers from a particular area are entitled to things - that just seems to be irish_rail, or have I missed all the other posters from the rest of GWR-land claiming entitlement to this that or the other?

If you want to wait another hour, that's your prerogative, but not everyone has that luxury, so they might prefer a train, even if it does not not have the booked number of coaches. Just ask people in the north of England, who currently haven't got a clue whether a TPE service will actually appear, never mind how many coaches it may have.

Irish_rail can wax lyrical about the good old days when there were no cancellations to the West Country and everything was an HST - but that only happened because the train crew couldn't operate anything else (I am discounting the Night Riviera stock here and the brief period of a few 180s working to Devon). As a result, it was not the cost-free exercise that Irish_rail would have people believe was the case - it had implications for other services, as he knows perfectly well.

Without the ability of Thames Valley crews to operate Turbos, 180s and HSTs, control would not have been able to perform the magic shuffles that produced an HST to head to Plymouth - but left other passengers standing in aisles, vestibules, bike/luggage spaces and all the rest.

That was indeed the normal state of affairs on the 17.18 Paddington-Oxford semi-fast, even with the booked Class 180 in the middle of the last decade. With a three-car Turbo it was worse - and who knows what it was like on the service that had been booked for a six-car Turbo formation that was now a three-car - many of whose passengers were paying a lot more than £100 for their season tickets.

 

[fgwrich]

I'm not saying they haven't got bigger problems but by all accounts the contract is pretty costly and inflexible so they should be held to it.
I wonder is the base of the cushions checked on the 36 day exam?

Speaking of the aforementioned seats, it would be nice if the seats were included. I took a trip to Bristol and back a few months ago and it was noticeable how many of the bases are almost non existent now - the metal bar in the base really starting to make its presence known now.

For those wondering what I’m talking about, there is a somewhat unnecessary and pointless metal bar running across the base of the seat (you can make out the ripple) which makes an already uncomfortable seat worse.

 

[irish_rail]

Speaking of the aforementioned seats, it would be nice if the seats were included. I took a trip to Bristol and back a few months ago and it was noticeable how many of the bases are almost non existent now - the metal bar in the base really starting to make its presence known now.

Heaven knows what they will be like in a few years time. Think ill resort to standing!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 19 Feb 2023 ==

And how do you think people elsewhere on the GWR network feel when a full and standing five-car unit turns up instead of a 2x5 or a 9-car?

Ah yes, they're just 'commuters', so they don't count - as we can see from your juvenile comments about Turbos.

And you will keep going on about three-hour journey times - doesn't anyone get on or off Paddington trains at Taunton, Exeter or Newton Abbot these days?

I like the new twist about what people paying £100 for a ticket deserve (surely are 'entitled' to?).

Have you looked up what peak fares from Bristol, South Wales and even the backwater of the Cotswold Line cost these days? I would have expected you have an encyclopaedic knowledge of them, given your considerable experience of the Cotswold Line.


I'm not the person who thinks passengers from a particular area are entitled to things - that just seems to be irish_rail, or have I missed all the other posters from the rest of GWR-land claiming entitlement to this that or the other?

If you want to wait another hour, that's your prerogative, but not everyone has that luxury, so they might prefer a train, even if it does not not have the booked number of coaches. Just ask people in the north of England, who currently haven't got a clue whether a TPE service will actually appear, never mind how many coaches it may have.

Irish_rail can wax lyrical about the good old days when there were no cancellations to the West Country and everything was an HST - but that only happened because the train crew couldn't operate anything else (I am discounting the Night Riviera stock here and the brief period of a few 180s working to Devon). As a result, it was not the cost-free exercise that Irish_rail would have people believe was the case - it had implications for other services, as he knows perfectly well.

Without the ability of Thames Valley crews to operate Turbos, 180s and HSTs, control would not have been able to perform the magic shuffles that produced an HST to head to Plymouth - but left other passengers standing in aisles, vestibules, bike/luggage spaces and all the rest.

That was indeed the normal state of affairs on the 17.18 Paddington-Oxford semi-fast, even with the booked Class 180 in the middle of the last decade. With a three-car Turbo it was worse - and who knows what it was like on the service that had been booked for a six-car Turbo formation that was now a three-car - many of whose passengers were paying a lot more than £100 for their season tickets.

Without addressing every one of your points, my argument is fairly simple. Passenger on the wofe route spends about 3 hours on average on the train. On the cotswold thats more like an hour or so. So if someone is going to stand, it should be the cotswold commuter, and not the long distance passenger. In an ideal world we would just have enough stock , but thanks to the Dft that isn't the reality.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Speaking of the aforementioned seats, it would be nice if the seats were included. I took a trip to Bristol and back a few months ago and it was noticeable how many of the bases are almost non existent now - the metal bar in the base really starting to make its presence known now.

TfW have used a different base cushion in the 197s, it'll be interesting to see if it lasts better, and if so whether the 80x could be changed to it. Though I'm sure Hitachi would charge a packet, unfortunately consumer rights don't apply to business, so if the contract allows bad quality like this Hitachi and Fainsa will get away with it. (If that was my sofa I'd be taking it back!)

 

[Irascible]

On the subject of the variability of the ride quality of the 800/802, which is something I have queried before... it occurred to me the other day that it could be the difference between coaches with engines and ones without. I haven't had a chance to test this theory yet, but has anyone noticed that?

IIRC wheel wear is a giant part of the ride/cracking issue - I can't remember the thread about cracking properly but I think they weren't specced for the amount of wheel wear they're experiencing, so now they have to go to the lathe far more frequently.

Even though even mild digging would have they discover they aren't actually built in Japan.

Hitachi have had problems with Japanese builds ( of trains for Japan, to be clear ) too, I think.

Heaven knows what they will be like in a few years time. Think ill resort to standing!

I was standing ( or sitting in a vestibule ) on HSTs from Devon in the 80s, I'm far past that now. Not using the train at all is now the favoured option. Hurray progress.

( And as I've said in the past, I used to try and get a Mk2 aircon service instead of a HST when I could, too, because I found them nicer to travel in ).

 

[Krokodil]

HST to head to Plymouth - but left other passengers standing in aisles, vestibules, bike/luggage spaces and all the rest.

That was indeed the normal state of affairs on the 17.18 Paddington-Oxford semi-fast

Standing for an hour from Paddington to Oxford isn't really comparable with being left behind on the platform at Liskeard with all of your family and their luggage because you can't physically get on.

 

[cactustwirly]

Standing for an hour from Paddington to Oxford isn't really comparable with being left behind on the platform at Liskeard with all of your family and their luggage because you can't physically get on.

From Oxford recently it's been the case that you'd be left behind.
A half full 5 car turns up from the Cotswolds and the platform is 5 people deep all the way along...

The capacity offered by the 800s is inadequate for the Oxford line when I've used it.
Bristol services also need something as they are always packed without any short forms

 

[stuu]

Without addressing every one of your points, my argument is fairly simple. Passenger on the wofe route spends about 3 hours on average on the train. On the cotswold thats more like an hour or so. So if someone is going to stand, it should be the cotswold commuter, and not the long distance passenger. In an ideal world we would just have enough stock , but thanks to the Dft that isn't the reality.

For that to be true that would mean as the majority of passengers are going at least as far as Plymouth. I find that very, very hard to believe, but I'm sure you wouldn't make that assertion without a source to support it

 

[Master29]

And how do you think people elsewhere on the GWR network feel when a full and standing five-car unit turns up instead of a 2x5 or a 9-car?

Ah yes, they're just 'commuters', so they don't count - as we can see from your juvenile comments about Turbos.

And you will keep going on about three-hour journey times - doesn't anyone get on or off Paddington trains at Taunton, Exeter or Newton Abbot these days?

I like the new twist about what people paying £100 for a ticket deserve (surely are 'entitled' to?).

Have you looked up what peak fares from Bristol, South Wales and even the backwater of the Cotswold Line cost these days? I would have expected you have an encyclopaedic knowledge of them, given your considerable experience of the Cotswold Line.


I'm not the person who thinks passengers from a particular area are entitled to things - that just seems to be irish_rail, or have I missed all the other posters from the rest of GWR-land claiming entitlement to this that or the other?

If you want to wait another hour, that's your prerogative, but not everyone has that luxury, so they might prefer a train, even if it does not not have the booked number of coaches. Just ask people in the north of England, who currently haven't got a clue whether a TPE service will actually appear, never mind how many coaches it may have.

Irish_rail can wax lyrical about the good old days when there were no cancellations to the West Country and everything was an HST - but that only happened because the train crew couldn't operate anything else (I am discounting the Night Riviera stock here and the brief period of a few 180s working to Devon). As a result, it was not the cost-free exercise that Irish_rail would have people believe was the case - it had implications for other services, as he knows perfectly well.

Without the ability of Thames Valley crews to operate Turbos, 180s and HSTs, control would not have been able to perform the magic shuffles that produced an HST to head to Plymouth - but left other passengers standing in aisles, vestibules, bike/luggage spaces and all the rest.

That was indeed the normal state of affairs on the 17.18 Paddington-Oxford semi-fast, even with the booked Class 180 in the middle of the last decade. With a three-car Turbo it was worse - and who knows what it was like on the service that had been booked for a six-car Turbo formation that was now a three-car - many of whose passengers were paying a lot more than £100 for their season tickets.

Can't fault any of what you say here to me Jimm. You must admit however that the whole IET project and subsequent orders has been badly handled and implemented from the start and it's not really just about waxing lyrical about the W of E. The soon to be cascaded to the west clearly shows how little thought went in to the process at the time. Irish Rail and I among others have made this point and indeed this isn't with the benefit of hindsight. No one should have been shortchanged in regard to what turns up and when. 5 car trains only was the original West of Plymouth idea which was doomed to fail from the start. A few 5 cars as are used now are fine but not those only. It won`t work whether or not every train adds a unit at Plymouth. We can blame covid and brexit for whatever reasons. Pretty pointless seeing as procurement was done before either of these but ultimately we are where we are through poor management.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 19 Feb 2023 ==

For that to be true that would mean as the majority of passengers are going at least as far as Plymouth. I find that very, very hard to believe, but I'm sure you wouldn't make that assertion without a source to support it

In most cases that is true. If you find it so hard to believe one wonders if you have actually been on this line.

 

[stuu]

In most cases that is true. If you find it so hard to believe one wonders if you have actually been on this line.

If you think that is true, I would question if you have ever been on it. Less than half of all WoE departures from Paddington make it into Cornwall, so I struggle to see how it would be possible for the average journey length to be over 3 hours

 

[irish_rail]

For that to be true that would mean as the majority of passengers are going at least as far as Plymouth. I find that very, very hard to believe, but I'm sure you wouldn't make that assertion without a source to support it

Say Totnes as that's reached in about 3 hours. So I'd argue absolutely that passengers from Totnes westwards outnumber Taunton Tiverton Exeter and Newton Abbot. My source is the TMS computer on the trains which gives passenger loadings, and from working the trains regularly a picture builds up over time.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 19 Feb 2023 ==

If you think that is true, I would question if you have ever been on it. Less than half of all WoE departures from Paddington make it into Cornwall, so I struggle to see how it would be possible for the average journey length to be over 3 hours

No one here is referring to the stoppers. Just the London to Plymouth and Penzance trains.

 

[Meerkat]

My source is the TMS computer on the trains which gives passenger loadings, and from working the trains regularly a picture builds up over time.

Can you tell from that whether they are through passengers or churning at Plymouth?

 

[Clarence Yard]

It’s not just about the number of passengers - it’s the amount of money they are paying. In times of stress, the lower yield destinations will always get a worse deal in terms of formations than the higher yield destinations.

The problem with the Plymouth to Penzance section was the justification for the train service, let alone the formations of those services. The DfT don’t work on summer loads, they work on all year round averages and it is a major challenge to get them to agree to any summer variations.

In the DA2 award they were seriously thinking that the St Ives should be a 2 car all year round so that GWR could release another 150 to Northern. Similarly they were looking at making savings in the Exeter 150 formations to release more units. Their answer to overcrowding - price it off or run buses. So that’s when we dialled up the politicians and pointed out the number of marginal seats involved!

I did have a bit of sport when one DfT consultant wanted to know who had given GWR permission to run all these extra summer trains and formations and “how long this had been going on?”. I said that if I could dig up Sir Daniel Gooch, I’d ask him! Before he could ask who he was, he was quietly told to shut up by his DfT boss!

 

[irish_rail]

It’s not just about the number of passengers - it’s the amount of money they are paying. In times of stress, the lower yield destinations will always get a worse deal in terms of formations than the higher yield destinations.

The problem with the Plymouth to Penzance section was the justification for the train service, let alone the formations of those services. The DfT don’t work on summer loads, they work on all year round averages and it is a major challenge to get them to agree to any summer variations.

In the DA2 award they were seriously thinking that the St Ives should be a 2 car all year round so that GWR could release another 150 to Northern. Similarly they were looking at making savings in the Exeter 150 formations to release more units. Their answer to overcrowding - price it off or run buses. So that’s when we dialled up the politicians and pointed out the number of marginal seats involved!

I did have a bit of sport when one DfT consultant wanted to know who had given GWR permission to run all these extra summer trains and formations and “how long this had been going on?”. I said that if I could dig up Sir Daniel Gooch, I’d ask him! Before he could ask who he was, he was quietly told to shut up by his DfT boss!

Amazing to think they are trying to rob GWR to throw yet more capacity at Northern!!! At least common sense prevailed then!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 19 Feb 2023 ==

Can you tell from that whether they are through passengers or churning at Plymouth?

On the up you will often get 100 say get off at Plymouth to be replaced with another 100 to 150 getting on, London bound. In the down direction a fair number alight at Plymouth but still a reasonable number go on into Cornwall, especially Easter to September.

 

[Krokodil]

Bristol services also need something as they are always packed without any short forms

More fool the DfT then for cutting the 4tph plan (2x Bath, 2x Badminton).

 

[Benjwri]

More fool the DfT then for cutting the 4tph plan (2x Bath, 2x Badminton).

Not sure how much that would help though, lots of the traffic comes from Bath and Chippenham. And obviously the Didcot stop has been reduced to 1tph, so that will increase the amount of people on that train, making it even busier.

 

[Krokodil]

Well if the Bristol to London through passengers got the proposed fast trains via Badminton, that would have freed up space on the other services for passengers doing Bristol - Chippenham or London - Bath.

 

[Master29]

If you think that is true, I would question if you have ever been on it. Less than half of all WoE departures from Paddington make it into Cornwall, so I struggle to see how it would be possible for the average journey length to be over 3 hours

3 hours or just over does that really matter. It's still around 3 times more than the Cotswolds line as per Irish Rails original post.