Why did the NYMR not save the line from Pickering To Malton?

[zwk500]

Begging a question- Does increasing track mileage generate commensurately increased income let alone profit to cover increased expenditures? I doubt it.

It depends where the track goes! Extensions can increase income, but are not guaranteed to.

 

[chorleyjeff]

We live in an age where we are told there is a "climate catastrophe" and that in order to "save the planet" the government has decided that no new fossil fuel powered cars will be sold from 2030, a mere 7 years away. You have to wonder how many cars will be on the road in this Shangri-la of electric vehicles and whether level crossing barriers will have much traffic to obstruct ?

"Climate catastrophe" and this week we learn that India, Pakistan and Bangladesh are planning to massively increase production of electricity by burning coal. Oil and gas prices said to be too high - I would have thought India could get relatively cheap gas (by LPG ) from their good friends in Russia. Just how much difference to man made global warming will our small island make by banning the use of petrol/diesel cars and using electric cars powered by electricity produced 50% from gas ? AndI can't see the major polluting countries following out lead given we are told that these days we are minor league players in the world economy and politics.

 

[paul1609]

At the same time as the NYMR was looking to re-open my own railway the K &ESR was in a battle with the Labour government over permission to reopen a line in rural Kent and Sussex. After it had been debated and challenged at court a compromise was settled on where we were eventually allowed to reopen 10 miles which lost us the mainline connection and was to protect the future A229 Maidstone to Hastings Dual Carriageway. The road plan never materialised and indeed Junction Road has since been downgraded to B road status.
The level crossings through Pickering must have been a major consideration in the NYMRs plans.

 

[Falcon1200]

Begging a question- Does increasing track mileage generate commensurately increased income let alone profit to cover increased expenditures? I doubt it.

I would think it very much depends where the increased mileage takes the trains to! Running to and from the tourist hotspot of Whitby must be of overall benefit to the NYMR, otherwise they would not do it.

 

[swissrailpassion]

Whitby running hugely increased passenger numbers. Many afternoon departures from Whitby were full and standing before covid.

At war weekend the first morning departure from Whitby would load over 350.

It's been a thumping success.

 

[JKF]

If, in a purely imagined scenario, the line was still open as part of the national rail network, what kind of time would it take to traverse the line to Whitby from York (picked as the nearest big city)? The current rail service takes a prohibitively long time for day trips from anywhere south, would the closed line have made it viable and attractive? When I lived in Leeds, Whitby was quite a popular destination for a day out, but by car only (think there was a reasonable bus service though)

 

[Class08Shunter]

If, in a purely imagined scenario, the line was still open as part of the national rail network, what kind of time would it take to traverse the line to Whitby from York (picked as the nearest big city)? The current rail service takes a prohibitively long time for day trips from anywhere south, would the closed line have made it viable and attractive? When I lived in Leeds, Whitby was quite a popular destination for a day out, but by car only (think there was a reasonable bus service though)

Whitby To York via Pickering by train would take 2 hours and 25 minutes.

 

[zwk500]

If, in a purely imagined scenario, the line was still open as part of the national rail network, what kind of time would it take to traverse the line to Whitby from York (picked as the nearest big city)? The current rail service takes a prohibitively long time for day trips from anywhere south, would the closed line have made it viable and attractive? When I lived in Leeds, Whitby was quite a popular destination for a day out, but by car only (think there was a reasonable bus service though)

You're looking at 15 Mins York-Malton, 7/8 mins Malton-Pickering, Pickering-Grosmont is currently c.1h for the NYMR, but you can probably reckon on 40mins for an NR line (For comparison Grosmont to Battersby which is similar profile and length is 42min), Grosmont-Whitby is today 20'. So overall 15 + 8 + 40 + 20 = 1h23.

However the odd bank holiday rush would't have saved the line against the lack of serious regular traffic north of Pickering. There may, just about, have been the possibility to build a new Pickering station on the south side of town and maintain a connection to York.

 

[DarloRich]

Running to Whitby must generate additional traffic for the NYMR; In 2021 my family did a Yorkshire coach tour which included a visit to Whitby and a steam train journey to Pickering. Would the train journey have been included if the coach had had to get to Grosmont; I'm not so sure!

The coach company would have done Goathland as they have as long as Heartbeat has been a thing

 

[Pinza-C55]

If, in a purely imagined scenario, the line was still open as part of the national rail network, what kind of time would it take to traverse the line to Whitby from York (picked as the nearest big city)? The current rail service takes a prohibitively long time for day trips from anywhere south, would the closed line have made it viable and attractive? When I lived in Leeds, Whitby was quite a popular destination for a day out, but by car only (think there was a reasonable bus service though)

It would depend what standard the line was reopened to (hypothetically). If it was double track with colour light signals and presuming fast trains from York only stopped at Malton and Pickering it could be reasonably fast. I don't know what maximum line speed would be possible from Pickering to Grosmont given the curves and gradients.
Edit* according to Bradshaws April 1910 timetable there was one fast train a day which departed Malton at 05.06, Pickering at 05.26, Grosmont at 06.06, arriving Whitby at 06.22. My guess is that it stood a while at Pickering.

 

[zwk500]

It would depend what standard the line was reopened to (hypothetically). If it was double track with colour light signals and presuming fast trains from York only stopped at Malton and Pickering it could be reasonably fast. I don't know what maximum line speed would be possible from Pickering to Grosmont given the curves and gradients.

Ruling linespeed of Battersby to Whitby, which has a similar curve alignment is 45mph. Not sure what the gradients are like between the two.

 

[infobleep]

I would round it up to £4m to account for the extra issues in Pickering itself.

But there's a wider point - in the 60s the NYMR would have really struggled to have sufficient stock and people to operate the line along it's full length. Even today they've said they don't think it would be economically viable to operate south of Pickering routinely.

Whilst I fully accept their arguments, as someone who doesn't drive, I wish it had been possible to extend it to the end of the original route.

 

[Pinza-C55]

Whilst I fully accept their arguments, as someone who doesn't drive, I wish it had been possible to extend it to the end of the original route.

Same here. I used to visit the NYMR regularly via the bus from Malton and one day on the weekend there was a tight connection going back to Malton and if you missed it there was an agonising 2 hour wait. The Coastliner bus is currently I understand doing a £2 fare each way York to Whitby but the bus takes 2 hours 17 minutes

 

[Spartacus]

Whilst I fully accept their arguments, as someone who doesn't drive, I wish it had been possible to extend it to the end of the original route.

I used to cycle Malton - Pickering. Lovely during the summer but often very cold in the winter.

I'd reckon, based on those Bradshaw times and the current York - Malton time you'd probably be looking at a total journey time of around 1 hour 40-45 mins. I'd imagine Goathland station would have survived if the rest of the line did, though I wonder if it would have remained the same time capsule that it did for a long time, instead being developed more, and perhaps would have been not as attractive a location for filming Heartbeat? Who knows...

 

[Pinza-C55]

I used to cycle Malton - Pickering. Lovely during the summer but often very cold in the winter.

I'd reckon, based on those Bradshaw times and the current York - Malton time you'd probably be looking at a total journey time of around 1 hour 40-45 mins. I'd imagine Goathland station would have survived if the rest of the line did, though I wonder if it would have remained the same time capsule that it did for a long time, instead being developed more, and perhaps would have been not as attractive a location for filming Heartbeat? Who knows...

If the line had survived as part of BR then the intermediate stations would have certainly followed the same pattern as the Esk Valley, sold off as homes. The signalboxes would have been closed and the goods sidings lifted and the yards either used as car parks or housing. Probably the crossings would have been converted to barriers and Bridge Street signalbox retained to monitor them.

 

[infobleep]

Same here. I used to visit the NYMR regularly via the bus from Malton and one day on the weekend there was a tight connection going back to Malton and if you missed it there was an agonising 2 hour wait. The Coastliner bus is currently I understand doing a £2 fare each way York to Whitby but the bus takes 2 hours 17 minutes

I've done that route before, as well as the train via Middlesborough.

I used to cycle Malton - Pickering. Lovely during the summer but often very cold in the winter.

Cycling it sounds lovely. Alas, due to disabilies I could only ride a bike if it has at least three wheels but I don't as some people thought I'd look silly riding one.

 

[Pinza-C55]

I've done that route before, as well as the train via Middlesborough.

Cycling it sounds lovely. Alas, due to disabilies I could only ride a bike if it has at least three wheels but I don't as some people thought I'd look silly riding one.

I have done Middlesbrough to Whitby a gazillion times, the first in 1975. In 1981 BR put on an excursion from Newcastle and Sunderland to Whitby with Deltic 55002 and it was a real blast. The line still had full signalling and passing loops then and a decent train service.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

I have done Middlesbrough to Whitby a gazillion times, the first in 1975. In 1981 BR put on an excursion from Newcastle and Sunderland to Whitby with Deltic 55002 and it was a real blast. The line still had full signalling and passing loops then and a decent train service.

Good stuff, but are we not discussing the fate of the other end of the line, i.e. between Pickering and (middle of nowhere) Rillington Junction and thence to Malton?

 

[BrianW]

I've done that route before, as well as the train via Middlesborough.

Cycling it sounds lovely. Alas, due to disabilies I could only ride a bike if it has at least three wheels but I don't as some people thought I'd look silly riding one.

Dear Infpobleep- Forget about 'looking silly' and do it. AIUI, we're only here once. So plan your trip, spend the money, and enjoy x4- enjoy the planning; enjoy the spending; enjoy the being there; enjoy telling others about it

 

[ShadowKnight]

I thought I say a thing in the last few years that the NYMR don't want to extend their route all the way to the end (and onto York) as it may result in the line being taken over national rail/gbr. I suppose it's a similar concern to the proposed metrolink tram extension onto the ELR in bury

 

[Bertie the bus]

I thought I say a thing in the last few years that the NYMR don't want to extend their route all the way to the end (and onto York) as it may result in the line being taken over national rail/gbr.

I'm not disputing you may have read that but it sounds like a fantasy. Why would GBR want to take over a route that runs through the middle of nowhere?

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Was another possible factor that the standalone NYMR rails (had they actually still been in place, weren't they already quite quickly lifted?) effectively still would have ended at the less than touristy Rillington Junction, and 1960s/1970s era BR would, most likely, have frowned upon any heritage railway running trains onwards along the Scarborough->York line on shared tracks into Malton.

 

[RT4038]

Was another possible factor that the standalone NYMR rails (had they actually still been in place, weren't they already quite quickly lifted?) effectively still would have ended at the less than touristy Rillington Junction, and 1960s/1970s era BR would, most likely, have frowned upon any heritage railway running trains onwards along the Scarborough->York line on shared tracks into Malton.

Even in the 2020s era this would be a little unlikely - I know that the only example in the country is at the other end of the route, but that is on a very minor branch line. I doubt the NYMR could resource (financially and operationally) running over NR metals to Malton for the likely amount of additional revenue. (Think Swanage Rly, West Somerset Rly - going nowhere on NR metals)

 

[infobleep]

Dear Infpobleep- Forget about 'looking silly' and do it. AIUI, we're only here once. So plan your trip, spend the money, and enjoy x4- enjoy the planning; enjoy the spending; enjoy the being there; enjoy telling others about it

Well I'd need to have cycle training first and allot money to buying a bike. Neither likely to happen any time soon. Too many other interests.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 20 Feb 2023 ==

Even in the 2020s era this would be a little unlikely - I know that the only example in the country is at the other end of the route, but that is on a very minor branch line. I doubt the NYMR could resource (financially and operationally) running over NR metals to Malton for the likely amount of additional revenue. (Think Swanage Rly, West Somerset Rly - going nowhere on NR metals)

Well the Bluebell Railway want to run to Haywards Heath but maybe that will be a separate platform in some way.

 

[RT4038]

Well the Bluebell Railway want to run to Haywards Heath but maybe that will be a separate platform in some way.

The Swanage Railway set out wanting to run to Wareham, and the West Somerset to Taunton.... If the Bluebell ever get to run to Haywards Heath it will be with a separate line and platform (notwithstanding it may use/cross part of an infrequently used freight spur). The interface between running preserved trains onto the main line railway is just too resource hungry and unaffordable except in the most niche of operations on a minor branch line.

 

[BoroAndy]

To head south from Pickering station would seem the only major problem. Making Pickering a through station would never be possible, so a reverse then sweep East or West would have to do, whichever is least cost. Any A169/A170 crossings could be done by a road bridge, the rest of the route south is flat and simple with few roads crossed. The Rillington junction could be triangular shaped allowing for Pickering-Scarborough and Pickering-Malton routes. I'm sure NR would like to be involved with Northern running services SCA and MLT to Whitby alongside NYMR steam. Pie in the sky though.

 

[Pinza-C55]

I'm not disputing you may have read that but it sounds like a fantasy. Why would GBR want to take over a route that runs through the middle of nowhere?

You could ask with equal utility why the NYMR wanted to save a route through the middle of nowhere and then get running rights to Whitby ?
As I pointed out earlier in theory both major political parties in this country have a stated agenda to reduce the amount of road traffic , apparently by pricing it out of range of everyone except the well-off. The line runs through the middle of a national park which is the first area you want to reduce road traffic in. With the new mine opening Whitby is an increasingly busy place and the Esk Valley line is a poor connection to the national network whereas the W&P is a direct route south.
Lest any NYMR members be reading I need to point out this is all hypothetical and is not going to happen.

 

[WAO]

Should not the question be how did the superb NYMR manage to save as much as it did?
Many preserved lines often survived only because of the support of the Local Authority.
In other areas the LA was happy to see the back of the railway and wanted new roads or development on railway land.
If there are to be new public services on heritage railways I hope that they can levy full access charges and also limit the intrusion of modern clutter.

WAO

 

[Bertie the bus]

You could ask with equal utility why the NYMR wanted to save a route through the middle of nowhere and then get running rights to Whitby ?

Anybody who needs to ask themselves that question should be able to come up with an answer pretty quickly. Heritage railways are part of the leisure/tourism sector and the North Yorkshire Moors attracts a lot of tourists. Quite a sensible place for a tourist attraction.

As I pointed out earlier in theory both major political parties in this country have a stated agenda to reduce the amount of road traffic , apparently by pricing it out of range of everyone except the well-off. The line runs through the middle of a national park which is the first area you want to reduce road traffic in. With the new mine opening Whitby is an increasingly busy place and the Esk Valley line is a poor connection to the national network whereas the W&P is a direct route south.

Claiming a national park is the first area you would want to reduce road traffic is bizarre.

Lest any NYMR members be reading I need to point out this is all hypothetical and is not going to happen.

Countering a claim the incorporation of the line into the national network is fantasy by admitting it is fantasy is novel to say the least.

 

[Pinza-C55]

Anybody who needs to ask themselves that question should be able to come up with an answer pretty quickly. Heritage railways are part of the leisure/tourism sector and the North Yorkshire Moors attracts a lot of tourists. Quite a sensible place for a tourist attraction.


Claiming a national park is the first area you would want to reduce road traffic is bizarre.


Countering a claim the incorporation of the line into the national network is fantasy by admitting it is fantasy is novel to say the least.

You don't think a large part of the attraction of a national park is the beautiful scenery rather than breathing in the fumes from the latest Toyota SUV ? Here's a page from the Campaign For National Parks

Reducing the impact of roads

Major road development has no place in the heart of our National Parks. We explain why new roads are a threat and our campaigning work.

www.cnp.org.uk

This is all hypothetical. The reason why NYMR didn't restore the missing link is that it was too expensive and they simply didn't want to do it anyway. NYMR members are very loyal to their line so I always point out that I am not advocating that they should reopen it now. Sorry if I didn't make this clear enough to you.