The North of England - where does it start?

[Howardh]

As someone who currently lives in Kent, anything north of the Thames could be classed as north of England for me!

The Arctic Circle goes through Milton Keynes if you're a southerner!!

Actually...that's not far off....

 

[londonteacher]

The Arctic Circle goes through Milton Keynes if you're a southerner!!

Actually...that's not far off....

It certainly feels like that on some days!

 

[WatcherZero]

I am always amused whenever I go to the South and see people using wetsuits for paddling in the sea, rivers or lakes on hot days. I am a Northerner who grew up spending a lot of time swimming in the Irish Sea and the Lakes in trunks and when you go swimming off the south coast or devon its like swimming in a heated public pool. Which goes back to one of the original arguments in the video as what defines a Northener.

 

[InkyScrolls]

I am always amused whenever I go to the South and see people using wetsuits for paddling in the sea, rivers or lakes on hot days. I am a Northerner who grew up spending a lot of time swimming in the Irish Sea and the Lakes in trunks and when you go swimming off the south coast or devon its like swimming in a heated public pool. Which goes back to one of the original arguments in the video as what defines a Northener.

I've noticed the same myself - growing up on the Northumberland coast we never used to wear more than the 'bare necessities', but holidaying in Devon everyone seems to wear the full shebang despite, as you say, the sea feeling like a heated swimming pool!

Southern jessies? Or holidaymakers from inland unused to the coast? Probably a bit of both!

 

[Ediswan]

I am always amused whenever I go to the South and see people using wetsuits for paddling in the sea, rivers or lakes on hot days.

It also reduces the amount of skin that needs to covered in sun cream, especially handy for small children.

 

[nw1]

Disagree, I lived in Birmingham but worked in Cheltenham for a couple of years, and it's certainly more Midlands than it is West Country. Much more in Common with places like Worcester and Stratford U Avon than there is to Bristol and Bath.

I'd put the border at Gloucester.

I've never been a resident of this area (so my views might be less valid than others), but to me I've never considered Cheltenham as West Country, or indeed the Cotswolds in general. For me the West Country is basically the area south of the M4 but northwest of Salisbury Plain (e.g. Trowbridge is West Country, Salisbury is not), and the Bristol satellite towns immediately to the north (so including Yate, etc - but not the Cheltenham/Gloucester area).

I've always thought of Cheltenham as being in the same "region" as, say, Worcester. South-west Midlands, if I had to put a label on it.

 

[Cross City]

I've never been a resident of this area (so my views might be less valid than others), but to me I've never considered Cheltenham as West Country, or indeed the Cotswolds in general. For me the West Country is basically the area south of the M4 but northwest of Salisbury Plain (e.g. Trowbridge is West Country, Salisbury is not), and the Bristol satellite towns immediately to the north (so including Yate, etc - but not the Cheltenham/Gloucester area).

I've always thought of Cheltenham as being in the same "region" as, say, Worcester. South-west Midlands, if I had to put a label on it.

This is my stance too.

 

[nw1]

This is my stance too.

Indeed. Perhaps to put a more precise label on it, the "area formerly known as Avon" is West Country while those areas which were still Gloucestershire during the Avon era are not.

For a precise definition of the West Country I'd say all of Cornwall, Devon, Somerset, the area formerly known as Avon, and those parts of Wiltshire and Dorset west of 2 degrees West, and northwest of the chalk escarpment of Salisbury Plain and Cranborne Chase.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 16 Feb 2023 ==

I've noticed the same myself - growing up on the Northumberland coast we never used to wear more than the 'bare necessities', but holidaying in Devon everyone seems to wear the full shebang despite, as you say, the sea feeling like a heated swimming pool!

Depends where you are in Devon I guess. I've never been to Torquay but can imagine that would be quite benign. However I have been to the North Devon coast and, being more exposed to the Atlantic, if the weather is not so good you can notice it!

 

[johntea]

When I use LNER between Leeds and London I instantly feel like I’ve left the North as soon as we depart Doncaster, feel like I’m in a bit of ‘man in the middle’ at the likes of Retford /Newark / Grantham but suddenly start to feel more ‘southern’ once we hit Peterborough (no idea why considering it’s 85 miles or so from London!)

Aren’t there a handful of people that commute (or used to) between the likes of Leeds and London for work daily?! That would completely confuse my mind being around the more Southern culture by day then back to our Northern ways and a cup of tea by night

 

[Cross City]

but suddenly start to feel more ‘southern’ once we hit Peterborough (no idea why considering it’s 85 miles or so from London!)

Peterborough is a weird one, people often say it's southern but it's further north than Birmingham (if ever so slightly).

For me its right where the Midlands, South and East meet.

 

[McRhu]

What you need to do is balance England on a pin to find the centre point and take it from there. Mr Physics is an impartial arbiter who reckons not of cities and counties. But as a matter of interest, which is it better to be; southern or northern?

 

[Peterthegreat]

Enough of this modern nonsense. The North is the counties of Lancashire, Westmorland, Cumberland, Northumberland, Durham and Yorkshire. Nothing else counts.

 

[InkyScrolls]

Enough of this modern nonsense. The North is the counties of Lancashire, Westmoreland, Cumberland, Northumberland, Durham and Yorkshire. Nothing else counts.

Thank you!

 

[Cross City]

Enough of this modern nonsense. The North is the counties of Lancashire, Westmoreland, Cumberland, Northumberland, Durham and Yorkshire. Nothing else counts.

You don't think Cheshire is northern?

 

[Peterthegreat]

You don't think Cheshire is northern?

I don't. Others may disagree.

 

[nw1]

Enough of this modern nonsense. The North is the counties of Lancashire, Westmorland, Cumberland, Northumberland, Durham and Yorkshire. Nothing else counts.

Light-hearted comment, for avoidance of doubt:

Westmoreland and Cumberland? Have we moved the clock back to before 1974?

(Actually given Boris' actions in early 2020, we've moved the clock back to before 1973, so perhaps...)

 

[InkyScrolls]

Light-hearted comment, for avoidance of doubt:

Westmoreland and Cumberland? Have we moved the clock back to before 1974?

(Actually given Boris' actions in early 2020, we've moved the clock back to before 1973, so perhaps...)

The historic counties still exist for cultural purposes, as the Government has repeatedly confirmed. Link to Government page regarding the historic counties.

 

[adrock1976]

Light-hearted comment, for avoidance of doubt:

Westmoreland and Cumberland? Have we moved the clock back to before 1974?

(Actually given Boris' actions in early 2020, we've moved the clock back to before 1973, so perhaps...)

Did Westmoreland become a district council with its functions shared between Appleby and Kendal?

 

[Bevan Price]

Enough of this modern nonsense. The North is the counties of Lancashire, Westmorland, Cumberland, Northumberland, Durham and Yorkshire. Nothing else counts.

In other words, everything North of the Mersey & Humber rivers, with a little latitude for residential areas close to the south banks of those rivers [e.g. Birkenhead, Stockton Heath (Warrington) and Stockport.]

 

[unlevel42]

As of April Westmoreland and Furness and Cumberland replace Cumbria and become two Unitary Authorities. Furness refers to the former Lancashire bit.
Allerdale Borough Council
Carlisle City Council
Copeland Borough Council become Cumberland
and
Eden District Council
South Lakeland District Council
Barrow become Westmoreland and Furness

 

[Grecian 1998]

Speaking as someone who enjoys an invigorating sea swim, whilst there are some folk in wetsuits swimming in southern waters, I can't say I've ever noticed they're in the majority. I've swum off approximately 70 beaches in Dorset, Devon and Cornwall (both coasts in the latter two cases) and can't say I've noticed a theme.

The sea temperature of the Irish Sea actually surpassed the south coast in summer 2018. I swam at Morecambe in August 2018 (carefully waiting till the tide was in) and it was noticeably warmer than in Devon and Cornwall. The Atlantic and Channel tend to vary less in temperature year round than the more enclosed seas do - in warmer summers, the north-west can easily have warmer seas than the south-west, although the winter seas will invariably be colder. The eastern end of the Channel is warmer than the western end in my experience, but the North Sea is noticeably colder than the Irish Sea.

Back on topic, the official government definition of the north is Cheshire, Merseyside, Greater Manchester, Lancashire, Cumbria, North Lincolnshire (area around Scunthorpe and Grimsby), Yorkshire, Durham, Tyne and Wear and Northumberland. I'd agree with that. Grimsby is further north than Sheffield and I can't see how it can be considered part of the Midlands. Geographically Cheshire is more Midlands, but far more linked culturally to Liverpool and Manchester IMHO.

I've always thought you could argue that geographically Liverpool, Manchester and Sheffield are all north Midlands rather than northern - far closer to Birmingham than the Scottish border. Culturally however they're certainly not. That said, Bristol is about the same distance from Lands' End as it is from Yorkshire and no-one considers that Midland (except maybe Penzancers).

I've always found it odd that Norfolk often seems get lumped in with the south when geographically it certainly isn't. I've always assumed this is because it's got average transport connections to London and pretty uninspiring connections to anywhere else.

 

[WatcherZero]

In other words, everything North of the Mersey & Humber rivers, with a little latitude for residential areas close to the south banks of those rivers [e.g. Birkenhead, Stockton Heath (Warrington) and Stockport.]

Is Chester not Northern, no Sheffield, Donacster and Barnsley?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 16 Feb 2023 ==

I've always found it odd that Norfolk often seems get lumped in with the south when geographically it certainly isn't. I've always assumed this is because it's got average transport connections to London and pretty uninspiring connections to anywhere else.

Longstanding Royal connections (proximity to seat of power) and heavy European sea trade probably kept it culturally and politically closer to the South than its geographic location would otherwise indicate, in the same way they kept Warwick one of the largest centres of power in the country until the 17th century.

 

[Howardh]

If you call your lunch dinner, and your dinner tea, you're in the north.

 

[AlterEgo]

If you call your lunch dinner, and your dinner tea, you're in the north.

Bedfordshire isn’t the north! We had school lunches and went to other kids’ houses for tea.

 

[Bantamzen]

I haven't read through all nine pages of this thread, so this may have been suggested already. The Pennines are in the North, so the North starts where the Pennines start. You're welcome....

 

[nlogax]

As far as I'm concerned most of you are in the south

 

[InkyScrolls]

As far as I'm concerned most of you are in the south

Thus spake the Geordie!

 

[Intercity110]

From saltfleet on the east coast to the welsh border (wales is just its own thing) & horsey beach in anglia to wales is the start and end of the midlands. Inbetween those are the midlands, roughly.

 

[nw1]

If you call your lunch dinner, and your dinner tea, you're in the north.

Difficult one.

Dinner I generally see as an evening meal. However as a kid (in the south) we used to have "Sunday tea" at about 6pm, consisting of sandwiches, crisps, pickles etc. Typically when something like "Jane Eyre" was on. That was always tea. Actually I think we only had "Sunday tea" in the autumn and winter, and switched to having the main meal in the evening in spring and summer.

Similarly, if we had a big meal at lunch (generally only autumn/winter Sundays), that would probably be dinner.

Mind you I lived in the north when I was very young, and in the south most of my life, so maybe that fits.

 

[DelayRepay]

Difficult one.

Dinner I generally see as an evening meal. However as a kid (in the south) we used to have "Sunday tea" at about 6pm, consisting of sandwiches, crisps, pickles etc. Typically when something like "Jane Eyre" was on. That was always tea. Actually I think we only had "Sunday tea" in the autumn and winter, and switched to having the main meal in the evening in spring and summer.

Similarly, if we had a big meal at lunch (generally only autumn/winter Sundays), that would probably be dinner.

Mind you I lived in the north when I was very young, and in the south most of my life, so maybe that fits.

Being a northerner, Dinner was what you ate in the middle of the day, even if it was just a sandwich. People in my workplace would refer to their lunch break as 'dinner time' or their 'dinner break'. The early evening meal was 'tea'. This wasn't just about the meal, the period around 6pm was referred to as 'tea time', e.g. my parents would talk about something they'd seen on the 'tea time news'.

The exception was Sundays, when we had Sunday Lunch in the early afternoon. This would be a roast. We then had Sunday Tea which was usually a light snack.

When I moved to London, I quickly changed to referring to Lunch (mid-day) and Dinner (early evening). I also quickly learned that if someone suggested visiting for supper, this was an actual meal and not a couple of biscuits eaten in your pyjamas before bedtime!