West Coast freight paths vs passenger paths. How can things be improved?

[Meerkat]

I believe the issue is lack of capacity on the 2-track sections of the WCML between Crewe and Weaver Junction, rather than further north.

Will that theoretically get solved with the Liverpool leg of NPR, which I assume will also be the route of HS2 trains to Liverpool?

 

[Greybeard33]

Can anyone say how well the intermodal trains from Daventry to Mossend perform over Shap and Beattock, hauled by Class 88s (4MW=5400HP under the wires)? These are far more powerful than Class 66s.

Taking a couple of examples from the current timetable, this intermodal is pathed for a diesel locomotive, trailing load 1000 tonnes, and is allowed 43 minutes from Lancaster to Shap Summit:

Realtime Trains | 4S38 1416 Seaforth C.T. Mdhc (Ews) to Mossend Down Yard | 15/02/2023

Real-time train running information for 4S38 1416 departure from Seaforth C.T. Mdhc (Ews) to Mossend Down Yard on 15/02/2023. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Whereas this intermodal is pathed (from Crewe onwards) for an electric locomotive, trailing load 1250 tonnes, and is allowed 39 minutes from Lancaster to Shap Summit:

Realtime Trains | 4S59 1457 Southampton M.C.T. to Mossend Down Yard | 15/02/2023

Real-time train running information for 4S59 1457 departure from Southampton M.C.T. to Mossend Down Yard on 15/02/2023. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

So only 4 minutes quicker, although the electric has a slightly heavier load.

It is loaded aggregates trains that are really slow uphill, but there are very few of those on Shap. Most of the aggregates trains are to/from the Shap quarries, so are empty when returning uphill.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 14 Feb 2023 ==

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Will that theoretically get solved with the Liverpool leg of NPR, which I assume will also be the route of HS2 trains to Liverpool?

I guess so, although realistically I imagine NPR Liverpool to Manchester will be completed years later than HS2 Crewe to Manchester.

 

[The Planner]

Taking a couple of examples from the current timetable, this intermodal is pathed for a diesel locomotive, trailing load 1000 tonnes, and is allowed 43 minutes from Lancaster to Shap Summit:

Realtime Trains | 4S38 1416 Seaforth C.T. Mdhc (Ews) to Mossend Down Yard | 15/02/2023

Real-time train running information for 4S38 1416 departure from Seaforth C.T. Mdhc (Ews) to Mossend Down Yard on 15/02/2023. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Whereas this intermodal is pathed (from Crewe onwards) for an electric locomotive, trailing load 1250 tonnes, and is allowed 39 minutes from Lancaster to Shap Summit:

Realtime Trains | 4S59 1457 Southampton M.C.T. to Mossend Down Yard | 15/02/2023

Real-time train running information for 4S59 1457 departure from Southampton M.C.T. to Mossend Down Yard on 15/02/2023. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

So only 4 minutes quicker, although the electric has a slightly heavier load.

It is loaded aggregates trains that are really slow uphill, but there are very few of those on Shap. Most of the aggregates trains are to/from the Shap quarries, so are empty when returning uphill.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 14 Feb 2023 ==

Automerged:

I guess so, although realistically I imagine NPR Liverpool to Manchester will be completed years later than HS2 Crewe to Manchester.

4 minutes is a path based upon the headway.

 

[Nottingham59]

Taking a couple of examples from the current timetable

Thank you. That's very helpful

39 minutes from Lancaster to Shap Summit

Which, to my surprise, is only ten minutes longer than the 29 minutes allowed for the Glasgow Pendolino (with a stop at Oxenholme).

Realtime Trains | 1S72 1430 London Euston to Glasgow Central | 15/02/2023

Real-time train running information for 1S72 1430 departure from London Euston to Glasgow Central on 15/02/2023. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

4 minutes is a path based upon the headway.

Indeed. It's a pity that the Daventry-Mossend Tesco trains seem to be pathed as diesels, despite being hauled by Class 88s (or so I understand). If the timetable hasn't been adjusted to time these paths as electric, then either the problem of freight congestion is less severe than we thought, or NR is not taking it seriously.

Realtime Trains | 4S43 0625 Daventry Drs (Tesco) to Mossend Euroterminal | 14/02/2023

Real-time train running information for 4S43 0625 departure from Daventry Drs (Tesco) to Mossend Euroterminal on 14/02/2023. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

 

[Greybeard33]

4 minutes is a path based upon the headway.

Indeed. And a bit of wiring to Liverpool docks end would enable that Seaforth train to be electrically hauled all the way, saving those 4 minutes. An illustration of how modest investment in freight infrastructure can release capacity for passenger services.

I doubt if a 88 on diesel would have the oomph to haul a loaded train up the gradient from the docks.

It's a pity that the Daventry-Mossend Tesco trains seem to be pathed as diesels, despite being hauled by Class 88s (or so I understand). If the timetable hasn't been adjusted to time these paths as electric, then either the problem of freight congestion is less severe than we thought, or NR is not taking it seriously.

That Tesco train has a timing of 39 minutes from Lancaster to Shap, the same as the electrically hauled Southampton train I linked.

 

[Starmill]

I believe the issue is lack of capacity on the 2-track sections of the WCML between Crewe and Weaver Junction, rather than further north. The service pattern is the same as has always been proposed for Phase 2a, and, without the Golborne Link, the Phase 2b Crewe to Manchester Bill does nothing to increase WCML capacity north of Crewe.

Indeed. Plus diverting 1tph that would have run via the bypass lines onto the through lines at Crewe would likely also lead to unmanageable conflict at Crewe Basford Hall Jn, Winwick Jn, and Golborne Jn. Even with the Golborne Link, Wigan North Jn and Euxton Jn as they are would also risk becoming unmanageable. Very unlikely that the HS2 service will be stopping at Warrington Bank Quay also.

 

[Bald Rick]

So only 4 minutes quicker, although the electric has a slightly heavier load

25% heavier. That’s quite a difference.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

Whereas this intermodal is pathed (from Crewe onwards) for an electric locomotive, trailing load 1250 tonnes, and is allowed 39 minutes from Lancaster to Shap Summit:

So only 4 minutes quicker, although the electric has a slightly heavier load.

25% heavier. That’s quite a difference.

You beat me to it. 250 tonnes is more than slightly IMHO.

 

[Greybeard33]

25% heavier. That’s quite a difference.

Indeed so - previous post amended. Diesel hauled intermodals of 1200+ tonnes all seem to be looped at Tebay.

 

[AndrewE]

Indeed so - previous post amended. Diesel hauled intermodals of 1200+ tonnes all seem to be looped at Tebay.

and as has been hinted at upthread, are a real curse.

I travel to see family in Edinburgh several times a year. I've lost count of the number of times we have been delayed, both north- and south-bound, by long freights which the locos just can't cope with. Last time northbound it was over an hour's delay which left us to eventually overtake a container train which was only put inside at Penrith. I don't know why it wasn't looped at Tebay - unless it was too long for the other loops.

There is a lot of merit in someone's suggestion that there should be a minimum power-to train weight ratio over Shap (and Beattock) although I can't imagine there isn't (- isn't this what a timing load is?) and probably a 2-loco requirement too.

If passenger rail is to work it has to be reliable, and my experiences are of just the opposite... It's a real embarrassment when I try to get family and friends to use trains and they turn out to be so bad!

Also tragic that rail freight which I wholeheartedly support is undermining rail passenger services.

 

[Agent_Squash]

In the May 23 timetable, one southbound Avanti daily skips Lancaster:

Realtime Trains | 9M59 1557 Glasgow Central to London Euston | 23/06/2023

Real-time train running information for 9M59 1557 departure from Glasgow Central to London Euston on 23/06/2023. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Conveniently, this would also be the best service for an end of working day connection from the Windermere branch.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Conveniently, this would also be the best service for an end of working day connection from the Windermere branch.

Though not if you're going to Lancaster. Is this a time when the branch runs through, though?

 

[Greybeard33]

Though not if you're going to Lancaster. Is this a time when the branch runs through, though?

No. A 45 minute wait at Oxenholme for the next service to Lancaster (the 1612 Edinburgh to Manchester Airport).

 

[Bletchleyite]

No. A 45 minute wait at Oxenholme for the next service to Lancaster (the 1612 Edinburgh to Manchester Airport).

Why's it essential that this one calls at Motherwell thus mucking up the Takt (in so much that there is one)? Does ScotRail not run a service around that time that it substitutes for?

It's quite common that the non-through Windermere service doesn't make a good connection, though, I've been caught out by that before.

 

[Greybeard33]

Why's it essential that this one calls at Motherwell thus mucking up the Takt (in so much that there is one)? Does ScotRail not run a service around that time that it substitutes for?

It is pick up only at Motherwell, so presumably to provide a direct evening service to Wolves/Brum. Most of the Avanti calls at Motherwell are on the Trent Valley services.

 

[Agent_Squash]

It is pick up only at Motherwell, so presumably to provide a direct evening service to Wolves/Brum. Most of the Avanti calls at Motherwell are on the Trent Valley services.

It doesn’t quite make sense though to disrupt what could be quite a lucrative flow for a once a day service.

 

[Trainbike46]

Indeed. And a bit of wiring to Liverpool docks end would enable that Seaforth train to be electrically hauled all the way, saving those 4 minutes. An illustration of how modest investment in freight infrastructure can release capacity for passenger services.

This does seem the easiest solution to the problem identified here; More electrification at key places so more freight can run electric the whole way. Bonus points if it allows more passenger services to switch to EMUs or bimodes to switch to electric too.
and of course the class 93 and 99 locomotives that are coming soon will also contribute to reducing this problem

 

[The Planner]

This does seem the easiest solution to the problem identified here; More electrification at key places so more freight can run electric the whole way. Bonus points if it allows more passenger services to switch to EMUs or bimodes to switch to electric too.
and of course the class 93 and 99 locomotives that are coming soon will also contribute to reducing this problem

Assuming the power available can accommodate it, that isn't certain. There are only a limited amount of hamsters in the wheels.

 

[Trainbike46]

Assuming the power available can accommodate it, that isn't certain.

If there isn't enough power available in the OHLE, it should be upgraded. But I thought the power supply was sufficiently strong in the northern WCML, isn't it?

And I'm not sure what you mean with:

There are only a limited amount of hamsters in the wheels.

Could you clarify?

 

[Peter0124]

9M55 (11:56 from GLC) also calls at Motherwell. It's fast from Carlisle to Lancaster though.

 

[The Planner]

If there isn't enough power available in the OHLE, it should be upgraded. But I thought the power supply was sufficiently strong in the northern WCML, isn't it?

And I'm not sure what you mean with:

Could you clarify?

You answered it yourself, the power supply is finite. I don't believe its proven that switching all freight to electric is doable.

 

[Bletchleyite]

You answered it yourself, the power supply is finite. I don't believe its proven that switching all freight to electric is doable.

If it isn't use two 66s or whatever.

 

[AndrewE]

66s?

"Tractors" with a power output or tractive effort which collapses above about 15mph... I have been delayed too many times by crawling freights to think they should have any future other than shunting in stone and Freigthliner terminals!

 

[Greybeard33]

You answered it yourself, the power supply is finite. I don't believe its proven that switching all freight to electric is doable.

How much would it cost to complete the autotransformer upgrade of the north WCML power supply, which was started a number of years ago then abandoned?

 

[The Planner]

How much would it cost to complete the autotransformer upgrade of the north WCML power supply, which was started a number of years ago then abandoned?

No idea, but Bushey PSU hasn't been sorted yet at the south end.

 

[Bald Rick]

No idea, but Bushey PSU hasn't been sorted yet at the south end.

And then there’s Crewe…

 

[Starmill]

It doesn’t quite make sense though to disrupt what could be quite a lucrative flow for a once a day service.

It's not once a day. Motherwell is the only station apart from Glasgow Central in the whole of the west of Scotland that has fast trains to England. It saves quite substantial time being able to connect at or railhead to Motherwell than going via Glasgow Central, so improving the service between the service between Motherwell and England has long been an important goal. There used to be multiple trains that stopped there instead of Lancaster, and the 1030 Down didn't used to call at Lancaster either. Same on Sundays. Nearly all have been ironed out.

 

[Bevan Price]

Thank you. That's very helpful

Which, to my surprise, is only ten minutes longer than the 29 minutes allowed for the Glasgow Pendolino (with a stop at Oxenholme).

Realtime Trains | 1S72 1430 London Euston to Glasgow Central | 15/02/2023

Real-time train running information for 1S72 1430 departure from London Euston to Glasgow Central on 15/02/2023. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Indeed. It's a pity that the Daventry-Mossend Tesco trains seem to be pathed as diesels, despite being hauled by Class 88s (or so I understand). If the timetable hasn't been adjusted to time these paths as electric, then either the problem of freight congestion is less severe than we thought, or NR is not taking it seriously.

Realtime Trains | 4S43 0625 Daventry Drs (Tesco) to Mossend Euroterminal | 14/02/2023

Real-time train running information for 4S43 0625 departure from Daventry Drs (Tesco) to Mossend Euroterminal on 14/02/2023. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

If a Class 88 is not available for those Tesco trains, DRS usually provide a pair of Class 66s or 68s.

 

[rapmastaj]

The timetable needs sorting out because the poor connections between Lancaster / Oxenholme / Penrith are disastrous for local travel. When I lived in Lancaster an obvious day out was to the Lakes, but given timetables that often required both a long wait in Oxenholme then another long wait for a bus at Windermere, it's no surprise that the vast majority chose to drive instead.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The timetable needs sorting out because the poor connections between Lancaster / Oxenholme / Penrith are disastrous for local travel. When I lived in Lancaster an obvious day out was to the Lakes, but given timetables that often required both a long wait in Oxenholme then another long wait for a bus at Windermere, it's no surprise that the vast majority chose to drive instead.

That Stagecoach can justify a commercial fast 555 up the M6 from Lancaster in summer says that rail is getting it very wrong here. (The normal through 555 via the villages is very slow and is really just two separate bus routes stuck together). Only two quid at the moment too, though that's obviously not long term.