Class 230 units training/introduction on the Borderlands line: updates

[zwk500]

I don't know the reason, but I bet it is written into the contract to operate the service. I know that for a number of years an intercity franchise tried to negotiate with the trade unions to introduce SDO. It was eventually abandoned. Perhaps it is the case that they cannot use SDO on the MArston Vale, but can on the Marshlink - only a guess

SDO would require the guards/drivers being trained on it, and Units capable of it, as well as an infrastructure situation that posed an acceptable level of risk. AFIAK no units working the Marston Vale have been capable of SDO, there is no infrastructure support for an SDO system (limiting options or requiring investment to make it happen), and there are station where SDO would lead to the rear of a train fouling a Level Crossing.

LNR uses Unit de-select SDO on their 350s, which leads to big issues as passengers have to move forward 4 cars not 1, but I don't think that would work with the MV platform lengths. AFAIK Southern use Door de-select on their 171s so they can still open doors on a non-gangwayed unit. Southern's SDO uses a combo of GPS and Beacons IIRC, although the MV could easily use a GPS-only system, you'd think given the potential for confusion between platforms is low.

 

[Peter Sarf]

Why can they only be served by 20m trains? On Marshlink we have 23m trains (171s) but in the case of two of the stations only the doors on the front carriage open.

Somewhere up thread is the answer which was along the lines of. Long train stops at platform in front of signal as is normal. Rear of train is across a level crossing. SDO would be fine if it were not for the level crossing spending too long blocked.

 

[paul1609]

SDO would require the guards/drivers being trained on it, and Units capable of it, as well as an infrastructure situation that posed an acceptable level of risk. AFIAK no units working the Marston Vale have been capable of SDO, there is no infrastructure support for an SDO system (limiting options or requiring investment to make it happen), and there are station where SDO would lead to the rear of a train fouling a Level Crossing.
AFAIK Southern use Door de-select on their 171s so they can still open doors on a non-gangwayed unit. Southern's SDO uses a combo of GPS and Beacons IIRC, although the MV could easily use a GPS-only system, you'd think given the potential for confusion between platforms is low.

Non Gangwayed units wernt allowed on Marshlink when we had 2 car units as the consequtive stations required the conductor to be in a different units to operate the door deselect. The 171s only have manual deselect no Asdo like the 377s.
Im not familiar with the Marston Vale but long trains frequently block level crossings for station stops along the coastway, including roads that I imagine are far busier than the Marston Vale.

 

[DavidGrain]

TfW have 5 230s which is much more than they need for the Borders Line. Original plan was for them also to be used on the Conwy Valley but that has been cancelled as I understand and for the Chester-Crewe services but it turns out that they would not be able to keep to the timetable on a busy line.

 

[markymark2000]

TfW have 5 230s which is much more than they need for the Borders Line. Original plan was for them also to be used on the Conwy Valley but that has been cancelled as I understand and for the Chester-Crewe services but it turns out that they would not be able to keep to the timetable on a busy line.

Not really more than needed as when it goes half hourly, that's 4 units being used. Plus 1 spare.

 

[Liverpool 507]

Not really more than needed as when it goes half hourly, that's 4 units being used. Plus 1 spare.

I personally think they’ll use a 197 on the Bidston - Wrexham services on one diagram along with three 230s to make four required for the half hourly service. You’ve then got one in maintenance and then one spare.

 

[315801]

Can I ask please if anybody knows whether a class 197 ( either 2 or 3 coach ) has run gauging trials on the Bidston - Wrexham line to determine whether the units will catch the platform edges or not in order to prevent the possibility of serious damage to the units and platforms.

 

[L401CJF]

Can I ask please if anybody knows whether a class 197 ( either 2 or 3 coach ) has run gauging trials on the Bidston - Wrexham line to determine whether the units will catch the platform edges or not in order to prevent the possibility of serious damage to the units and platforms.

They've ran them down the line a few times for testing purposes, no issues with guaging etc. They've ran a few timing runs and the 197 just isn't able to keep to the times hence why they havnt introduced any on the line.

TFW want them introduced to free up 150s, but they just can't meet the times in comparison to a 150. It's going to have to be full 230 operation.

To be fair the 230s are much quicker off the mark than a 197 (and 150) so when they're introduced it should be an improvement to what we have now - I just hope they're reliable enough to run a proper service! In fairness having read the horror stories about them, I was pleasantly surprised when I got to do training on one, the refurb quality is high standard and they're nice units in my opinion (when they work).

230 training is supposed to restart again this week/next week. Once X amount of drivers and guards are trained they're planning to press them into service.

They were already on target to get them out by January but then Vivarail went into administration. Annoying as they'd ironed out a lot of faults and were having a good few solid weeks of reliable running the last time they were running!

The latest train crew diagrams already factor in the half hourly Bidstons but for now crew act "as ordered", so in theory they're ready to up the frequency whenever they can however in reality I don't know how quickly that will come in.

 

[D365]

In fairness having read the horror stories about them, I was pleasantly surprised when I got to do training on one, the refurb quality is high standard and they're nice units in my opinion (when they work).

Other than the slow-moving doors, I don’t think there have ever been complaints about the passenger area.

 

[craigybagel]

TfW have 5 230s which is much more than they need for the Borders Line. Original plan was for them also to be used on the Conwy Valley but that has been cancelled as I understand and for the Chester-Crewe services but it turns out that they would not be able to keep to the timetable on a busy line.

The use of 230s on routes other than Bidston was only ever meant to be temporary, to allow for 150s to be withdrawn from the North sooner. The other routes were always expected to transition to 197s in time, freeing up 230s to double the service on Bidston.

Instead, use of 230s on the other routes was abandoned for a variety of reasons, which would have brought forward the introduction of the doubled Bidston services were it not for the issues the 230s have had.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Other than the slow-moving doors, I don’t think there have ever been complaints about the passenger area.

Is it beyond the realms of possibility to correct that, or is it something concerning Vivarail original works that preclude such matters being remedied?

 

[Meerkat]

They've ran a few timing runs and the 197 just isn't able to keep to the times hence why they havnt introduced any on the line.

Can the 197s not keep to 150 timings, or not keep to the 230 timings needed for 2tph?

 

[L401CJF]

Can the 197s not keep to 150 timings, or not keep to the 230 timings needed for 2tph?

That's a good question, I'm not sure but I will ask around!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Is it beyond the realms of possibility to correct that, or is it something concerning Vivarail original works that preclude such matters being remedied?

I'm sure I recall reading an inhibitor was installed and the original "catching" mechanism removed. I'm not entirely sure why - there was little wrong with the doors as London Underground had them.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 13 Feb 2023 ==

Can the 197s not keep to 150 timings, or not keep to the 230 timings needed for 2tph?

It would seem odd if a 197 couldn't keep to 150 timings generally - with the larger engines and mechanical transmission the CAF DMUs are certainly sprightly, delivering EMU like acceleration on Northern, which is one reason why they are showing up on urban stopping services instead of their original long distance work.

 

[sw1ller]

197s are much, much quicker than 150’s. I don’t know where this nonsense that they’re slower to 40mph has come from. It seems a few drivers are having difficulty getting used to the brakes and making everyone seasick coming into stations at times, but once confidence is up then I see only one issue with using 197s on the bidstons and that’s traction on acceleration. They slip so much easier than any other unit and take an absolute age to gain the power back once it cuts out. So Hawarden bank might cause issues. But dwell times are rapid, especially at busy places. They are a pain to drive slowly though, they just want to keep pulling.

 

[D821]

I thought I saw one of the 3 units leaving Birkenhead North a few minutes ago til I noticed that the 3 units were still there. Have they transferred a fourth unit there now or has it been hiding inside the shed?

 

[8H]

I thought I saw one of the 3 units leaving Birkenhead North a few minutes ago til I noticed that the 3 units were still there. Have they transferred a fourth unit there now or has it been hiding inside the shed?

Realtime has 008 and 010 together heading for Wrexham at 0853

 

[L401CJF]

Realtime has 008 and 010 together heading for Wrexham at 0853

I believe crew training is taking place again now.

 

[yorkie]

Just a gentle reminder to remain on topic please

We do absolutely welcome any posts of a speculative nature but we do ask that these are posted in the appropriate forum section.

Some posts have been moved to the following thread:

What rolling stock could be used on the Amlwch branch, if it reopens?

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[Bob Price]

A video from Rail Focus on YouTube showing 008 and 010 on training today.

 

[EngFocus]

197s are much, much quicker than 150’s. I don’t know where this nonsense that they’re slower to 40mph has come from. It seems a few drivers are having difficulty getting used to the brakes and making everyone seasick coming into stations at times, but once confidence is up then I see only one issue with using 197s on the bidstons and that’s traction on acceleration. They slip so much easier than any other unit and take an absolute age to gain the power back once it cuts out. So Hawarden bank might cause issues. But dwell times are rapid, especially at busy places. They are a pain to drive slowly though, they just want to keep pulling.

I spoke to someone senior from TfW at the launch of the cl197s and they all but confirmed that they were not able to keep to time on the line.

However a cl197 will be used alongside 230s on the Wrexham-Bidston line once the half hourly service is introduced as TfW think they will only have 3 cl230s available each day, but the cl197 will be used only the skip-stop service.


Does anyone know if the 230 runs this week are actually driver training or are TfW still just putting miles in until they're happy with the reliability?

08+10 video was from yesterday's run.

 

[Liverpool 507]

Will these units still be going on to Chester Depot for fuelling and CET/tanking?

 

[Peter Sarf]

A video from Rail Focus on YouTube showing 008 and 010 on training today.

Thanks for sharing that video. I have to say I was impressed by their performance, they kind of seem a bit more real now.

 

[D821]

Will these units still be going on to Chester Depot for fuelling and CET/tanking?

Birkenhead North has fuelling facilities, I believe.

 

[RobShipway]

Will TFW buy the class 230 units that they are currently leasing in the same way GWR have done with 230001?

 

[EngFocus]

Will TFW buy the class 230 units that they are currently leasing in the same way GWR have done with 230001?

TfW already own the 230s, issues around operating them were to do with ongoing maintenance and intellectual property rights, but I'm assuming TfW has come to an agreement similar to GWR.

 

[D365]

A video from Rail Focus on YouTube showing 008 and 010 on training today.

Waiting for @Railperf's performance analysis here

 

[Liverpool 507]

Birkenhead North has fuelling facilities, I believe.

I seen a video passing Birkenhead North shed, and I did see adjacent to the heavy maintenance shed what looked like a small fuel pad with fueling and CET equipment.

 

[sw1ller]

I spoke to someone senior from TfW at the launch of the cl197s and they all but confirmed that they were not able to keep to time on the line.

However a cl197 will be used alongside 230s on the Wrexham-Bidston line once the half hourly service is introduced as TfW think they will only have 3 cl230s available each day, but the cl197 will be used only the skip-stop service.


Does anyone know if the 230 runs this week are actually driver training or are TfW still just putting miles in until they're happy with the reliability?

08+10 video was from yesterday's run.

They can be as senior as they like, I drive them and 197’s are quicker. Drivers are being trained to come into stations stupidly slow, so maybe this is where time is being lost but I’ve actually been using them how they’ve been designed and timing between Manchester/Liverpool and Llandudno have dropped a lot for me.

 

[TDK]

They can be as senior as they like, I drive them and 197’s are quicker. Drivers are being trained to come into stations stupidly slow, so maybe this is where time is being lost but I’ve actually been using them how they’ve been designed and timing between Manchester/Liverpool and Llandudno have dropped a lot for me.

Driver's are being trained to to come into stations stupidly slow? Really?