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How can capacity on the West London Line be increased?

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Sad Sprinter

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The West London Line, in my opinion, could do with a far more frequent Overground service. Hampered by freight of course. If it needed, how can extra capacity be released on the WLL? The would have been space at West Brom for through tracks, but they appear to have been built over now.
 
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Peregrine 4903

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The West London Line, in my opinion, could do with a far more frequent Overground service. Hampered by freight of course. If it needed, how can extra capacity be released on the WLL? The would have been space at West Brom for through tracks, but they appear to have been built over now.
I don't really see how you can. It would defintley be possible, but would cost billions. In fact the biggest things the WLL needs is more capacity for freight. There are plenty of extremely valuable freight services that have been difficult to find paths for due to a lack of capacity on the WLL.

If there ever was more capacity found on the WLL, all the spare capacity would go to freight.
 

Sad Sprinter

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I don't really see how you can. It would defintley be possible, but would cost billions. In fact the biggest things the WLL needs is more capacity for freight. There are plenty of extremely valuable freight services that have been difficult to find paths for due to a lack of capacity on the WLL.

If there ever was more capacity found on the WLL, all the spare capacity would go to freight.

I often wonder if the WLL could be replaced with a DLR type service. At least it'll give the chance to serve places like Earls Court
 

Starmill

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Why does it need a more frequent service? There are six per hour including the trains from Watford Junction. Which services are so over-capacity? You can use eight cars between Clapham Junction and Shepherds Bush as it is.
 

Snow1964

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There was a large number of freight yards and loops alongside quite a lot of the line. Not sure how much of this trackbed still exists.

Clearly widening whole line would be phenomenally expensive, including the Thames bridge. More practically might be able to put in third track in parts and convert the centre track to a reversible loop. Having a couple of these overtaking loops would seriously increase capacity.
 

Sad Sprinter

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Why does it need a more frequent service? There are six per hour including the trains from Watford Junction. Which services are so over-capacity? You can use eight cars between Clapham Junction and Shepherds Bush as it is.

It is in my experiences. In the mornings and evenings. Even during the day on Saturdays its rammed with people going to Westfields.
 

deltic

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I don't really see how you can. It would defintley be possible, but would cost billions. In fact the biggest things the WLL needs is more capacity for freight. There are plenty of extremely valuable freight services that have been difficult to find paths for due to a lack of capacity on the WLL.

If there ever was more capacity found on the WLL, all the spare capacity would go to freight.
There are a large number of freight paths on the WLL but few seem to be actually used - last Thursday for example 34 freight trains went through Kensington Olympia, that's an average of less than 1 tph in each direction while a further 80+ paths were unused
 

Peregrine 4903

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There are a large number of freight paths on the WLL but few seem to be actually used - last Thursday for example 34 freight trains went through Kensington Olympia, that's an average of less than 1 tph in each direction while a further 80+ paths were unused
The vast majority of those are Channel Tunnel Freight paths which have the most rights on the network along with seasonal and test trains.
 

30907

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There was a large number of freight yards and loops alongside quite a lot of the line. Not sure how much of this trackbed still exists.

Clearly widening whole line would be phenomenally expensive, including the Thames bridge. More practically might be able to put in third track in parts and convert the centre track to a reversible loop. Having a couple of these overtaking loops would seriously increase capacity.
Given that freight and passenger speeds are near enough the same, loops are only of use to regulate traffic if there is a pathing issue at either end of the WLL.
The Willesden area and Longhedge-Latchmere Jns should provide that for most services, plus there's a through northbound road at Olympia.
 

mr_jrt

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Stick the freight in a lovely deep cross-London tunnel as it doesn't need stations?
 

cle

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There was serious talk about increasing frequency on the WLL (and NLL) in time - I’m not sure which interventions, if any, were planned though.

I would think 6tph Willesden and 2tph Watford would be an acceptable future service. Better than most lines…
 

HSTEd

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Assuming that some sort of WLL station connection is built for Old Oak Common (the proposed Hythe Road station), we would expect a very large uplift in WLL passenger traffic from people attempting to connect from HS2 to ex-Southern Region services at Clapham Junction. Such a link would abstract HS2 traffic from the central London connections out of Euston.
 

HamworthyGoods

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It is in my experiences. In the mornings and evenings. Even during the day on Saturdays its rammed with people going to Westfields.

Are the trains actually over capacity. The overground stock is designed to have a high proportion of standing people?
 

PGAT

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I doubt it. Many people have different interpretations of “rammed”
 

WizCastro197

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I doubt it. Many people have different interpretations of “rammed”
I agree, I think a sensible meaning of rammed is perhaps when it is so busy, you can’t physically get yourself on the train? Does LO experience this at all on the WLL?
 

Starmill

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I doubt it. Many people have different interpretations of “rammed”
Indeed. If you take a class 158 or 175 for example once all seats are taken and you have maybe 20 people standing per vehicle there's very little room indeed for anyone else to actually board the train. It's still possible as long as people stand along the aisle, but the number of additional people who can board is small and the conditions will mean some people choose not to. On an 800 even 5 - 10 people standing up per coach is very difficult as their vestibules and aisles are even narrower. However, the 378s are a totally different story and you would be worried if there weren't at minimum 20 people per vehicle standing as it would indicate quite low loadings.
 

cle

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I agree, I think a sensible meaning of rammed is perhaps when it is so busy, you can’t physically get yourself on the train? Does LO experience this at all on the WLL?
It's rarer since the days of 3 car 313s - which did see people routinely left behind. And I think a move to 6 cars would come before material frequency change (with any stock orders for the ELL extra 2tph too, I'd expect - but unlikely with TfL as it is - govt change can't come soon enough)

Indeed, a standard 2tph (of 8 cars) on the Southern route would be preferable.

It's more like a tube, especially Willesden-Stratford core 12tph, and Londoners are better at ramming in (with perceptions of 'rammed' probably more forgiving that non-Londoners) and also moving down...
 

stuu

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From where to where?
<crayon mode> Beckenham Hill-Harlesden, with links to a portal near Battersea Dogs Home, so fast passenger trains avoid inner south London, and freight, such as it is, misses everything. </crayon mode>

What's the going rate for plain line tunnel per mile? £250m? 14 miles of tunnel, £4-5bn for the lot inclusive of portals etc.
 

zwk500

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<crayon mode> Beckenham Hill-Harlesden, with links to a portal near Battersea Dogs Home, so fast passenger trains avoid inner south London, and freight, such as it is, misses everything. </crayon mode>

What's the going rate for plain line tunnel per mile? £250m? 14 miles of tunnel, £4-5bn for the lot inclusive of portals etc.
So this deep level tunnel is going suddenly pop up a spur at Battersea and achieve what, exactly?
 

stuu

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So this deep level tunnel is going suddenly pop up a spur at Battersea and achieve what, exactly?
Allow fast trains from Kent to avoid south London, increasing the capacity for inner London. TfL and NR have suggested such a thing, extending it for freight to the WCML is pure crayoning admittedly
 

mr_jrt

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From where to where?
Even by my incredibly uninformed standards I have little overall idea of freight flows across London beyond there's a load along the NLL/Goblin, a load up the WLL, and some to/from Acton yard. Not to mention the big container ports downstream. It was more tongue in cheek than anything else to set people talking.

So, little more than arbitrarily, Ripple Lane to Wembley/Willesden as a starter for 10? No idea about the available capacity on HS1, but Thamesport traffic could conceivably get to Ripple Lane via HS1 at Ebbsfleet. Thames Gateway traffic can obviously get to RL via the line through Dagenham.

No idea of a good solution for the Felixstowe traffic, though. A branch off the main tunnel towards Romford, perhaps? Or a separate one from Romford-ish to Ripple Lane? Not sure where having additional surface lines starts becoming feasible without looking, but I'm sure Crossrail would like to have the GE electric lines all to themselves.
 

AlastairFraser

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Depends on what you need. Increase train/platform lengths first and then, if a station near HS2 opens and overcrowding is still an issue, sell the land above the line for property development and use it to create a 2 tier grade separation line for the busiest sections - e.g a bypass under West Brompton station for freight could be at least partially funded by a residential development above West Brompton station.
 
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