Could hiring from abroad solve the UKs unit shortage?

[Ashley Hill]

Over the years many British classes of loco have found themselves working abroad,either on hire or sold. Likewise some class 66 locos that were built for European use have come to Britain. Given that some TOCs are in dire need of newer trains are there any suitable foreign units that could be bought/leased for use over here? Would a TOC even be allowed to do this by our inept government?

 

[zwk500]

Only units originally designed for Britain, I'd wager, given the loading gauge issue. Couldn't hire just an ordinary FLIRT for instance.

 

[ANDREW_D_WEBB]

Over the years many British classes of loco have found themselves working abroad,either on hire or sold. Likewise some class 66 locos that were built for European use have come to Britain. Given that some TOCs are in dire need of newer trains are there any foreign units that could be bought/leased for use over here? Would a TOC even be allowed to do this by our inept government?

The main issue would be the UK's smaller loading gauge compared to most of the rest of Europe meaning that anything hired would not fit around most of the network. The island of Ireland has a similar loading gauge but anything hired from there would need new wheelsets as the track gauge is different.

Most of the 66s which have passed from European to UK operators were built to UK loading gauge as General Motors already had this design of bodyshell after winning the order for Yeoman class 59s in the 1980s. The other alternative would have been to put it in an American bodyshell which is too big for most European lines. The latest arrivals from Europe for GBRF have roof mounted air con pods which will need removing before they fit UK loading gauge.

A better option would be to have a sensible rolling stock policy which didn't leave relatively new trains redundant, e.g Class 379 and (soon) 350.

 

[Ashley Hill]

I’m aware of the gauging issues and have amended my OP.

 

[zwk500]

In terms of being allowed to, it'd need DfT sign-off but if it was truly a cheaper option I don't see that it would be impossible to get approval. However because it will require modifications it's very unlikely to be cheaper overall than a bulk order.

 

[JonathanH]

Given that some TOCs are in dire need of newer trains are there any suitable foreign units that could be bought/leased for use over here? Would a TOC even be allowed to do this by our inept government?

We are removing trains from service that we don't need at the moment, and there have been rumours that the 27 175s won't go anywhere for further service, and 769s are for the bin. That doesn't suggest that anyone has identified a need for extra rolling stock.

The issue with bringing in rolling stock, regardless of where it comes from, is the cost of staff training. Therefore, finding new use for TfW 150s or 158s, and Northern taking on EMR 156s is easier than using other rolling stock.

 

[A0]

A better option would be to have a sensible rolling stock policy which didn't leave relatively new trains redundant, e.g Class 379 and (soon) 350.

OK, I'll bite - what would *you* do with these units given they are only 25kv capable ?

So you can't send them to Southern / SWR / South Eastern.

The argument about GN is the numbers don't add up to allow a cascade of 3rd rail capable 387s south.

Their configuration means they're not suitable to replace units like the 323s without infrastructure works like signal positiom changes.

So apart from replacing the 319s with Northern, there really doesn't seem to be an immediate use for them.

 

[A0]

We are removing trains from service that we don't need at the moment, and there have been rumours that the 27 175s won't go anywhere for further service, and 769s are for the bin. That doesn't suggest that anyone has identified a need for extra rolling stock.

The issue with bringing in rolling stock, regardless of where it comes from, is the cost of staff training. Therefore, finding new use for TfW 150s or 158s, and Northern taking on EMR 156s is easier than using other rolling stock.

The Coradia's (both 175 & 180) though are both non standard, small classes and haven't excelled in reliability.

And before anyone say's 'oh but BR would have found a use for them' - a reminder that BR withdrew non standard DMUs of a similar age to the Coradia's - see class 123, 124, 125 and 126.

 

[DanNCL]

Some could, some couldn’t. For example the Hungarian 86s have been significantly modified from when they were in the UK and would need a lot of work to be UK compatible again. On the other hand, the 92s in Bulgaria are still pretty much in the same condition they were in when they were in the UK, and remain UK registered, so presumably could return with little more than an exam required to use them in the UK again.

 

[Bletchleyite]

There's a glut of EMUs, no shortage at all. The 379s are sat doing nothing and the 345s were scrapped.

There's presently a DMU shortage, but when all of TfW's new units become available, that'll release enough 150s, 158s and 175s to fill any DMU need, though I bet most will end up scrapped.

 

[Southsider]

There's a glut of EMUs, no shortage at all. The 379s are sat doing nothing and the 345s were scrapped.

There's presently a DMU shortage, but when all of TfW's new units become available, that'll release enough 150s, 158s and 175s to fill any DMU need, though I bet most will end up scrapped.

Scotrail will also be offloading 156s when Barrhead and East Kilbride are electrified.

 

[AlastairFraser]

There's a glut of EMUs, no shortage at all. The 379s are sat doing nothing and the 345s were scrapped.

The 345s scrapped? Don't you mean the 365s?

 

[Bletchleyite]

The 345s scrapped? Don't you mean the 365s?

Sorry, yes, I did

 

[AlastairFraser]

Sorry, yes, I did

Was about to say - I know the commuters were moaning about EL not being as promised, but that seems a rash step to take.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

The only European country with a similar loading gauge to the UK is Ireland... but they of course use a different track gauge so you'd have to swap the bogies or wheelsets out. You'd also need Ireland to have spare stock, and given that it's not too long ago that Ireland was looking into leasing surplus GB stock, I suspect that's highly unlikely in the short-term.

Northern Ireland is in a similar situation, and whilst there might be slightly less paperwork needed for such a move the technical issues remain.

 

[Neptune]

The only European country with a similar loading gauge to the UK is Ireland... but they of course use a different track gauge so you'd have to swap the bogies or wheelsets out. You'd also need Ireland to have spare stock, and given that it's not too long ago that Ireland was looking into leasing surplus GB stock, I suspect that's highly unlikely in the short-term.

Northern Ireland is in a similar situation, and whilst there might be slightly less paperwork needed for such a move the technical issues remain.

I think Ireland have a larger loading gauge than the UK. For instance compare the UK gauge mk3 generator vans on the Enterprise with the 201 class loco and the enterprise coaches (photo from Wikimedia commons)

 

[Snow1964]

The UK is suffering from a glut of small classes of train, that are non standard and therefore cannot be used elsewhere without staff training.

Long gone are the days of late 1970s or early 1980s where virtually all regional drivers could jump in any DMU, or a Southern region driver into any EMU as they were nearly all standard.

Whats more, most of the fleets coming free are single propulsion (pure diesel, or 25Kv only etc) and due to a disjointed National policy there are virtually no services that they can run on without either upsetting environmentalists (using diesel on electrified sections of line), or being electric when line in need isn't.

The dithering over GBR means hasn't really been any strategic plan for allocating rolling stock for about 4 years, and virtually nothing has moved around (and the few that have like 360s to Corby were generally planned at least 4 years ago). Meanwhile other plans like 707s to SouthEastern have ground to a halt due to new train problems.

There are well over 1000 vehicles on order not yet in service
(classes 196, 197, 701, 720, 805, 807, 810 etc)

 

[61653 HTAFC]

I think Ireland have a larger loading gauge than the UK. For instance compare the UK gauge mk3 generator vans on the Enterprise with the 201 class loco and the enterprise coaches (photo from Wikimedia commons)

They do have more "wriggle room" due to the larger track gauge and the size of stock used way back. However the vast majority of the stock on the island of Ireland today is pretty much GB-sized. The platform height for example is much more in keeping with Great Britain than it is with Spain which also has a "wider than standard" gauge.

 

[Neptune]

They do have more "wriggle room" due to the larger track gauge and the size of stock used way back. However the vast majority of the stock on the island of Ireland today is pretty much GB-sized. The platform height for example is much more in keeping with Great Britain than it is with Spain which also has a "wider than standard" gauge.

I’m no so sure about that to be honest. Since the withdrawal of the mk3’s and the 450 class DEMU’s and without looking at actual dimensions, all the more moder. stock looks more like the larger loading gauge of the 201, for example the mk4 coaches.

Also look at the size of a 3000 class DMU and compare it to the similar UK class 333. The Irish unit looks to have a much larger envelope despite the obvious family similarities.

 

[Trainbike46]

Whats more, most of the fleets coming free are single propulsion (pure diesel, or 25Kv only etc) and due to a disjointed National policy there are virtually no services that they can run on without either upsetting environmentalists (using diesel on electrified sections of line), or being electric when line in need isn't.

Diesel trains on electrified lines aren't ideal for reasons other than the environmental ones, mainly that diesel units are more expensive to operate (due to fuel and maintenance and usually lease being more expensive) and less reliable than electric units. And of course, diesel trains do run on electric lines, a main example being avanti voyagers (for now)


Back on topic, I don't think there is much available in other countries that would make sense to move to GB; simply because it either wouldn't fit, there is no need for it, or there is more suitable stock already available or coming available soon