Why did the NYMR not save the line from Pickering To Malton?

[Class08Shunter]

Does anyone know why the NYMR didn't save the line from Pickering To Malton?

 

[sprinterguy]

I think it was largely down to the limitations of funding against how much BR were asking for to buy the line from them (And the subsequent costs of operating and maintaining such a length of line).

There's a well detailed potted history of the early years of the NYMR described in the article linked to below, which I've quoted the following salient points from:

https://discover.hubpages.com/travel/TRAVEL-NORTH-54-A-BREATH-OF-NEW-LIFE-North-York-Moors-Historical-Railway-Trust-Re-opens-The-Line-From-Grosmont

Several district councils banded together to keep the W&PR moorland line open in an attempt to subsidise operations. All in vain. The attempt failed and the end loomed darkly for the Pickering branch, as it had for the coastal route to Scarborough.

Rumours abounded by September, 1967, that British Railways was about to have the track lifted and reclaim the rails. Members of the preservation society quickly set up a meeting with British Railways' regional managers, with the outcome that whilst the rails remained, calculations would be made of their cash value. In six months the situation would be reviewed, "in the light of the society's [financial] progress".

It became clear a few months later that the purchase of the whole railway from Grosmont to Pickering would carry a price tag of around £100,000. The sum had been boosted to six figures by BRB because much of the route was heavily check-railed to ensure against derailment on the sharp curves, whilst also the rails were in very good condition and considered re-usable by them.

Obviously, to raise such a large amount would be beyond the society's means as they stood then. Plans were drawn up anew and after lengthy negotiations a price of £35,000 was agreed for the 6.75 miles from Grosmont, through Goathland station to Ellerbeck, £7,500 for railway premises between Grosmont and High Mill north of Pickering.

The National Park authority became concerned at the prospect of a terminus being established by the railway at Ellerbeck. Environmentally, they felt, it would be better if the line could be retained throughout to Pickering by the fledgling NYMR. It was after all geographically the most suitable headquarters for commercial operations. Plainly the railway offered the best access to Newton Dale, and that part closure from Ellerbeck to Pickering would bring about an environmental disaster with car-clogged roads either side of the roughly north-south aligned dale. Therefore the County Council stepped in and agreed to purchase the trackbed between Ellerbeck and Pickering, and lease it to the society with the outcome that it could make best use of its capital to develop the line. Concurrently the Yorkshire Tourist Board (YTB) stepped forward with the biggest tourist incentive payment made to date in England, of £30,000 - mainly in secured loans.

Though it also seems that the District Council at the Pickering end didn't take a charitable view of the restoration of rail services to the town, which may have also had an impact on any desire to extend further south:

For the first two operating years services from Grosmont had to terminate at a temporary platform at High Mill, Pickering, due to the stubbornness of the District Council there, who held to the aim of demolishing the station to make way for a car park, shops and supermarket. Luckily for the Trust the station - designed by George Hudson's friend and Y&NMR architect George Townsend Andrews - was a listed building. Yet the council appealed against the County Council's refusal to allow demolition.

At a spirited public inquiry a petition to bar the use of the station by 33 signatories was roundly defeated by a counter petition signed by 1,400 in favour of the Trust. Over the course of the inquiry the atmosphere was further charged by the District Council's demolition of the sidings shed and what had very likely been the original station building, despite also being listed. In the end the District Council's appeal was lost and from 24th May, 1975 trains entered the historic station rescued from total - planned - dereliction. Doors had been kicked in, windows smashed and roofs leaked in what had been a cynical ploy by the council to point to irreparable damage due to vandalism.

 

[30907]

A further minor detail, which I am sure you know already: the line would have ended in the middle of nowhere at Rillington Jn not at Malton.

 

[Flying Phil]

What many of today's enthusiasts don't realise is how uncertain the prospects of preserved railway lines were back in the 60's and 70's. So raising any significant sums of money was extremely difficult. It often relied upon "friendly" bank managers, supportive local councils and the odd member, with deep pockets, to guarantee loans.
Our present lines owe so much to so few - without whom we would have nothing.

 

[Class08Shunter]

A further minor detail, which I am sure you know already: the line would have ended in the middle of nowhere at Rillington Jn not at Malton.

Thanks for reminding me. I forgot about that.

 

[Spartacus]

The number of level crossings, not least in Pickering itself would have been a major drawback too. It's also not exactly the most exciting stretch too, either scenically or for any potential 'thrash'

 

[Mcr Warrior]

The number of level crossings, not least in Pickering itself would have been a major drawback too.

In particular all the east-west road traffic along the A170 through Pickering town centre itself.

 

[Spartacus]

In particular all the east-west road traffic along the A170 through Pickering town centre itself.

I'd imagine if the crossing had remained that the calls for a bypass would have been irresistible, perhaps from somewhere around Middleton, going South of the town, then perhaps going around the East (roundabout near the new Premier Inn) as far north as the road to Whitby to take that traffic. There'd still be the A169 to contend with too.

 

[Class08Shunter]

I think it was largely down to the limitations of funding against how much BR were asking for to buy the line from them (And the subsequent costs of operating and maintaining such a length of line).

There's a well detailed potted history of the early years of the NYMR described in the article linked to below, which I've quoted the following salient points from:

https://discover.hubpages.com/travel/TRAVEL-NORTH-54-A-BREATH-OF-NEW-LIFE-North-York-Moors-Historical-Railway-Trust-Re-opens-The-Line-From-Grosmont

Though it also seems that the District Council at the Pickering end didn't take a charitable view of the restoration of rail services to the town, which may have also had an impact on any desire to extend further south:

I calculated the cost to buy all of the line from Grosmont to Rillington. It says in the link that was provided that the cost to buy Grosmont-Pickering (In 1967's money) is £100,000. I divided 100,000 by 18 (the amount of miles) to find out how much money it costs a mile and got 5,555.5555555556 and rounded it up to 6,000 which means it costs £6,000 (In 1967's money) a mile. I then multiplied 6,000 by 24.5 (how much miles in total from Grosmont to Rillington) and got 147,000. So it would cost £147,000 (in 1967's money) to buy the line from Grosmont to Rillington. In today's money, it costs £3,413,683.37 but I rounded it down to £3,000,000.

 

[zwk500]

I calculated the cost to buy all of the line from Grosmont to Rillington. It says in the link that was provided that the cost to buy Grosmont-Pickering (In 1967's money) is £100,000. I divided 100,000 by 18 (the amount of miles) to find out how much money it costs a mile and got 5,555.5555555556 and rounded it up to 6,000 which means it costs £6,000 (In 1967's money) a mile. I then multiplied 6,000 by 24.5 (how much miles in total from Grosmont to Rillington) and got 147,000. So it would cost £147,000 (in 1967's money) to buy the line from Grosmont to Rillington. In today's money, it costs £3,413,683.37 but I rounded it down to £3,000,000.

I would round it up to £4m to account for the extra issues in Pickering itself.

But there's a wider point - in the 60s the NYMR would have really struggled to have sufficient stock and people to operate the line along it's full length. Even today they've said they don't think it would be economically viable to operate south of Pickering routinely.

 

[D Williams]

However, the NYMR has now, in practical terms, extended it's services to Whitby on track owned and maintained by someone else and I suspect this has made more money than running to somewhere near Maltby. A better result surely?

 

[Harvester]

However, the NYMR has now, in practical terms, extended it's services to Whitby on track owned and maintained by someone else and I suspect this has made more money than running to somewhere near Maltby. A better result surely?

Just out of interest, does the NYMR make much profit, or even cover it’s running costs over the Grosmont to Whitby section. I would have thought Network Rail’s track access charges would take a fair slice of any income the NYMR generated from this service.

 

[zwk500]

Just out of interest, does the NYMR make much profit, or even cover it’s running costs over the Grosmont to Whitby section. I would have thought Network Rail’s track access charges would take a fair slice of any income the NYMR generated from this service.

It's presumably worth it, otherwise they'd stop running to Whitby. As the NYMR only run between Battersby and Whitby (and technically Sheringham and Cromer) and are a heritage operator I wouldn't be surprised if they have a very favourable rate for track access.

 

[Eyersey468]

It's presumably worth it, otherwise they'd stop running to Whitby. As the NYMR only run between Battersby and Whitby (and technically Sheringham and Cromer) and are a heritage operator I wouldn't be surprised if they have a very favourable rate for track access.

Why do the NYMR run between Sheringham and Cromer?

 

[zwk500]

Why do the NYMR run between Sheringham and Cromer?

The NNR operate under the NYMR's mainline license.

 

[Class08Shunter]

Just out of interest, does the NYMR make much profit, or even cover it’s running costs over the Grosmont to Whitby section. I would have thought Network Rail’s track access charges would take a fair slice of any income the NYMR generated from this service.

How much does it cost to run over NR track?

 

[Eyersey468]

The NNR operate under the NYMR's mainline license.

Aah thanks now I understand

 

[zwk500]

How much does it cost to run over NR track?

That is a very long answer summarised by 'it depends'.

 

[KevL]

The other interesting bit, at least to me, was initially they looked at Scarborough to Whitby.
The cinder track still exists as a cycleway and is being slowly improved for walkers and cyclists. its very beautiful. (note, i live in scarborough).
Personally however id live to see Lidl pickering demolished to make way for the railway. Lol.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

How much does it cost to run over NR track?

That is a very long answer summarised by 'it depends'.

Interesting question though. For the run on NR rails between Grosmont and Whitby (and back), are we talking hundreds or maybe thousands of pounds per trip?

NYMR management must reckon that the additional fare revenue from such runs more than covers the additional costs, otherwise they'd only ever operate trains between Grosmont and Pickering.

 

[zwk500]

The other interesting bit, at least to me, was initially they looked at Scarborough to Whitby.
The cinder track still exists as a cycleway and is being slowly improved for walkers and cyclists. its very beautiful. (note, i live in scarborough).
Personally however id live to see Lidl pickering demolished to make way for the railway. Lol.

All very well for you, as you don't have to buy your shopping from it! I'm sure the people of Pickering (who should be the first thought in any railway being built around the town) wouldn't be thrilled to have their roads cut in half every time a train left or departed or to have their supermarket demolished, or even their local businesses relocated.

Interesting question though. For the run on NR rails between Grosmont and Whitby (and back), are we talking hundreds or maybe thousands of pounds per trip?

NYMR management must reckon that the additional fare revenue from such runs more than covers the additional costs.

The NYMR contract with the ORR which includes the track access charges is some 130 pages long (and publicly available). The formula is in there, if not the exact number of pounds and pence they feed into it.

 

[Falcon1200]

NYMR management must reckon that the additional fare revenue from such runs more than covers the additional costs.

Running to Whitby must generate additional traffic for the NYMR; In 2021 my family did a Yorkshire coach tour which included a visit to Whitby and a steam train journey to Pickering. Would the train journey have been included if the coach had had to get to Grosmont; I'm not so sure!

 

[30907]

Running to Whitby must generate additional traffic for the NYMR; In 2021 my family did a Yorkshire coach tour which included a visit to Whitby and a steam train journey to Pickering. Would the train journey have been included if the coach had had to get to Grosmont; I'm not so sure!

I think they would have opted for Goathland rather than Grosmont for ease of access.

BTW As well as NR's charges I imagine Northern might gain a little additional revenue - their predecessor (NS or RRNE, not sure which) was certainly involved in the discussions, though that may just have been over timetabling.

 

[zwk500]

BTW As well as NR's charges I imagine Northern might gain a little additional revenue - their predecessor (NS or RRNE, not sure which) was certainly involved in the discussions, though that may just have been over timetabling.

Northern may get revenue from extra ticket sales on their services by people coming for the steam train. However AFAIK the NYMR only pays Northern for the access charges at Whitby station (covering cleaning services, rubbish disposal etc).

I think people are seriously underestimating just how fine the margins are on heritage operation on the mainline, and even then how many 'good deals' they get to make it happen.

 

[Pinza-C55]

All very well for you, as you don't have to buy your shopping from it! I'm sure the people of Pickering (who should be the first thought in any railway being built around the town) wouldn't be thrilled to have their roads cut in half every time a train left or departed or to have their supermarket demolished, or even their local businesses relocated.

We live in an age where we are told there is a "climate catastrophe" and that in order to "save the planet" the government has decided that no new fossil fuel powered cars will be sold from 2030, a mere 7 years away. You have to wonder how many cars will be on the road in this Shangri-la of electric vehicles and whether level crossing barriers will have much traffic to obstruct ?

 

[zwk500]

We live in an age where we are told there is a "climate catastrophe" and that in order to "save the planet" the government has decided that no new fossil fuel powered cars will be sold from 2030, a mere 7 years away. You have to wonder how many cars will be on the road in this Shangri-la of electric vehicles and whether level crossing barriers will have much traffic to obstruct ?

Electric vehicles will quickly fill this gap. People are too attached to their cars, but even if they weren't, then there'd be lots more pedestrian traffic to be disrupted by closing the level crossing. The risk of trespass would possibly be worse.

 

[Spartacus]

We live in an age where we are told there is a "climate catastrophe" and that in order to "save the planet" the government has decided that no new fossil fuel powered cars will be sold from 2030, a mere 7 years away. You have to wonder how many cars will be on the road in this Shangri-la of electric vehicles and whether level crossing barriers will have much traffic to obstruct ?

People will find a properly maintained petrol or diesel car will last a remarkably long time, there'll still be plenty of vehicles with exhaust pipes through Pickering for decades to come.

 

[scarby]

What many of today's enthusiasts don't realise is how uncertain the prospects of preserved railway lines were back in the 60's and 70's. So raising any significant sums of money was extremely difficult. It often relied upon "friendly" bank managers, supportive local councils and the odd member, with deep pockets, to guarantee loans.
Our present lines owe so much to so few - without whom we would have nothing.

This really sums up the situation as it was when the line was actually saved.

When the NYMR started, the aim was to rescue at least part of the line. I believe the initial plan was to only save Goathland-Grosmont, and when the opportunity came up to go further towards Pickering it was too good to miss.

At the time the only motive power the railway had, was I think, a railbus and a couple of industrial tank engines, or something like that. There was absolutely no conception that the railway would become a major tourist attraction with extensive rolling stock. The aim was to save a line as best as possible and have some occasional operating weekends.

As has also been mentioned it was very uncertain that the line could make it through to Pickering, it could well have ended up terminating at the improvised terminus at New Bridge indefinitely.

So I think the answer to the original question is that going all that way simply wasn't on the agenda. There was no concept that in the future the railway would get 350,000 visitors a year and that having a connection to the national network at both ends might be a handy thing to have.

 

[Pinza-C55]

People will find a properly maintained petrol or diesel car will last a remarkably long time, there'll still be plenty of vehicles with exhaust pipes through Pickering for decades to come.

That assumes there will still be petrol stations to fill up at of course, and that the petrol won't be priced out of reach of the general public deliberately or otherwise.

 

[BrianW]

Running to Whitby must generate additional traffic for the NYMR; In 2021 my family did a Yorkshire coach tour which included a visit to Whitby and a steam train journey to Pickering. Would the train journey have been included if the coach had had to get to Grosmont; I'm not so sure!

Begging a question- Does increasing track mileage generate commensurately increased income let alone profit to cover increased expenditures? I doubt it.