European Commission supports 10 cross-border rail projects

[Trainbike46]

Above (I thought) someone was suggesting the plan might be for NS to become the operator of the Amsterdam Eurostar throughout (not just in the Netherlands). Which seems unlikely to me.

yeah that seems unlikely

 

[rvdborgt]

Above (I thought) someone was suggesting the plan might be for NS to become the operator of the Amsterdam Eurostar throughout (not just in the Netherlands). Which seems unlikely to me.

If you mean my comment: I didn't suggest that. What's more likely is that Eurostar becomes the sole operator until Amsterdam.

 

[AdamWW]

If you mean my comment: I didn't suggest that. What's more likely is that Eurostar becomes the sole operator until Amsterdam.

No I was responding to this:

eurostar do London to Paris and brussels
thalys do Paris to amsterdam via brussels
NS do London to Amsterdam maybe skipping brussels?

almost reviving DB's abandoned project as i belive that was gonna go via amsterdam for some reason (at least thats what german wikipedia says)?

 

[duesselmartin]

When you buy a Eurostar ticket to Rotterdam or Amsterdam, Eurostar and NS are both mentioned as operators. But whoever the operator is, you can always make agreements about which drivers run the trains. You don't have to change driver at the border. IIRC the Amsterdam-Brussels IC service used to have both Belgian and Dutch drivers who did the whole route, although this is a classic cooperation train of NS and NMBS/SNCB. Maybe this is still the case (1 driver doing the whole route), I'm not sure.

When buying a Eurostar or Thaly ticket with SNCB, both logos appear on the ticket.
I once bought a Cologne to Innsbruck ticket in SNCB, only the SNCB logo was on the ticket. SNCB being only the agency in this case.

 

[rvdborgt]

When buying a Eurostar or Thaly ticket with SNCB, both logos appear on the ticket.
I once bought a Cologne to Innsbruck ticket in SNCB, only the SNCB logo was on the ticket. SNCB being only the agency in this case.

The ticket will mention both the distributor and the actual operator(s). On a classic paper ticket, the distributor is mentioned at the top left, e.g. "CIV 1080" for DB (often with a logo) and the operator(s) in the box where the route is printed, below the train details. The operators are also mentioned by just their 4-digit codes.

 

[StephenHunter]

Above (I thought) someone was suggesting the plan might be for NS to become the operator of the Amsterdam Eurostar throughout (not just in the Netherlands). Which seems unlikely to me.

A yellow and blue-painted e320? Wouldn't mind that too much.

 

[The exile]

Sadly the Cluj-Oradea-Episcopia Bihor electrification will take quite a while, as the design phase is scheduled to take 6 months and the construction phase 3 years. And looking at how other project usually go here, there will be delays for sure.

Compared with progress over here - that’s like greased lightning!

 

[Northumbriana]

Midnight Trains are a French company with some pretty big investors behind them I believe - they've said they are going to buying their sleeper stock now. These are also the people with a stated ambition to do Paris-Edinburgh, which is a topic for another thread, but Paris-Venice is a realistic starter.

Do they know which route they'd take? I'm guessing WCML but diverting into Manchester and Birmingham and using the line through Camden to reach the single track HS1 connection north of St Pancras.

 

[zwk500]

Do they know which route they'd take? I'm guessing WCML but diverting into Manchester and Birmingham and using the line through Camden to reach the single track HS1 connection north of St Pancras.

I'd guess the same as the Lowlander, WCML maybe with a Crewe or Stafford call for Manchester/Birmingham and then Trent Valley down to Camden, then yes you would assume HS1 from there. Alternative could be to go via Kensington and Bromley South to pick up HS1 at Fawkham Jn or Ashford.

 

[popeter45]

I'd guess the same as the Lowlander, WCML maybe with a Crewe or Stafford call for Manchester/Birmingham and then Trent Valley down to Camden, then yes you would assume HS1 from there. Alternative could be to go via Kensington and Bromley South to pick up HS1 at Fawkham Jn or Ashford.

IF they actually ever somehow manage to do this route i hope they would time for a okay time for London pickups (e.g. midnight) so can also serve London to Paris night passengers

 

[Austriantrain]

IF they actually ever somehow manage to do this route i hope they would time for a okay time for London pickups (e.g. midnight) so can also serve London to Paris night passengers

Not very likely. Even just using classic lines on both sides of the Channel, an 8 am arrival time in Paris would see the train passing through London around 2 am, I suppose. And besides, with a 2h+ journey time on E*, London - Paris does not need night services.

 

[zwk500]

IF they actually ever somehow manage to do this route i hope they would time for a okay time for London pickups (e.g. midnight) so can also serve London to Paris night passengers

As @Austriantrain mentions, with London-Paris at 2h15-2h30 you can get to Paris pretty early regardless. I think a London pickup makes sense - but it also depends on the security and immigration strategy decided upon. If the train is to be 'sterile' then the only place they can currently pick people up would be via reversal in St Pancras. If the train is to have a recirculation then it will need somewhere with sufficient space to process everybody, which could include a pickup stop at the same time. Ebbsfleet would be perhaps the most sensible place to do this but Ashford would be possible as it would permit access to the classic network when HS1 is closed north of Dollands Moor. Stratford would come some way behind those two because of the cost of getting it ready.

 

[popeter45]

As @Austriantrain mentions, with London-Paris at 2h15-2h30 you can get to Paris pretty early regardless. I think a London pickup makes sense - but it also depends on the security and immigration strategy decided upon. If the train is to be 'sterile' then the only place they can currently pick people up would be via reversal in St Pancras. If the train is to have a recirculation then it will need somewhere with sufficient space to process everybody, which could include a pickup stop at the same time. Ebbsfleet would be perhaps the most sensible place to do this but Ashford would be possible as it would permit access to the classic network when HS1 is closed north of Dollands Moor. Stratford would come some way behind those two because of the cost of getting it ready.

reaslicly a loco swap would be needed anyway as you need a 92 to use the tunnel but while the highlander and lowlander are okay with max 80mph as are running during fright hours you would want somthing faster for anything using the WCML/ECML before middnight, prob a class 90/93 etc instead, would make sence to swap at St Pancras alongside a reversal

 

[StephenHunter]

reaslicly a loco swap would be needed anyway as you need a 92 to use the tunnel but while the highlander and lowlander are okay with max 80mph as are running during fright hours you would want somthing faster for anything using the WCML/ECML before middnight, prob a class 90/93 etc instead, would make sence to swap at St Pancras alongside a reversal

Could a Vectron use HS1?

 

[zwk500]

Could a Vectron use HS1?

If its fitted with TVM-430. There's nothing that says only a 92 can work HS1. For working through the Channel Tunnel any loco needs to be able to satisfy the fire and haulage of dead weight requirements.

 

[43096]

Could a Vectron use HS1?

There's no reason why not, but none are as yet either fitted with TVM430 or cleared for France.

 

[Speed43125]

Could a Vectron use HS1?

If its fitted with TVM-430. There's nothing that says only a 92 can work HS1. For working through the Channel Tunnel any loco needs to be able to satisfy the fire and haulage of dead weight requirements.

At one point there were talks of certifying SNCF Primera locomotives for working all the way to Dollands Moor. Slightly more fire safety red tape with passengers than boxes obviously.

 

[popeter45]

If its fitted with TVM-430. There's nothing that says only a 92 can work HS1. For working through the Channel Tunnel any loco needs to be able to satisfy the fire and haulage of dead weight requirements.

it was more that at the moment its only 92's and specing out a new class for just this service wouldnt make financial sence
thou even if a vectron or traxx was fitted for HS1 you would still need to swap to one at London as cant see a redesign to UK gauge anytime soon

 

[zwk500]

it was more that at the moment its only 92's and specing out a new class for just this service wouldnt make financial sence
thou even if a vectron or traxx was fitted for HS1 you would still need to swap to one at London as cant see a redesign to UK gauge anytime soon

Tbh worry about which loco is rather immaterial until the passport strategy is known.

 

[Austriantrain]

Tbh worry about which loco is rather immaterial until the passport strategy is known.

If the current UK government wasn’t so hell bent into provoking the EU, that one might be solvable. The Schengen countries are rather more relaxed than the UK on having passport controls on board trains (still happens routinely on Schengen borders), and besides the risk of refugees first going to the UK and then to France is rather less than the other way round. So passport checks on the train or on arrival in Paris might not be unthinkable (and the other way round towards the UK, the usual juxtaposed checks on departure from Paris would apply) - and usually, here we don’t charge TOCs for passport checks, just as we don’t do it for car drivers although I am not sure how the French deal with E*.

But the economics still wouldn’t add up: buy a very small series of CAF Mk5 sleeper stock adapted to the tunnel, at least two sets of locos, more probably three, security controls, staff, track access fees in two countries etc etc, all to be paid for by a very limited number of passengers.

 

[zwk500]

If the current UK government wasn’t so hell bent into provoking the EU, that one might be solvable.

Have you seen the UK govt right now?

The Schengen countries are rather more relaxed than the UK on having passport controls on board trains (still happens routinely on Schengen borders), and besides the risk of refugees first going to the UK and then to France is rather less than the other way round. So passport checks on the train or on arrival in Paris might not be unthinkable (and the other way round towards the UK, the usual juxtaposed checks on departure from Paris would apply) - and usually, here we don’t charge TOCs for passport checks, just as we don’t do it for car drivers although I am not sure how the French deal with E*.

It really depends where the sleepers are planning to serve. As the destination list increases the complexities get more towards having a lille shuffle, but getting a sleeper train to recirculate after everybody has started bedding down would be terrible.

But the economics still wouldn’t add up: buy a very small series of CAF Mk5 sleeper stock adapted to the tunnel, at least two sets of locos, more probably three, security controls, staff, track access fees in two countries etc etc, all to be paid for by a very limited number of passengers.

Agreed. Given flight and day train times a sleeper is a novelty not a transport service for the UK - hence the rebrand of the Calley sleeper. Its different in Europe because they can use more efficient stock and have smoother borders.

 

[popeter45]

on the boarder checks yea while EU to UK check are a non starter due to HO demands would they be so demanding on exit checks for UK to EU services?, especally if run as NoL routes to locations that already have return facilities like Paris, Brussels and Amsterdam?

Agreed. Given flight and day train times a sleeper is a novelty not a transport service for the UK - hence the rebrand of the Calley sleeper. Its different in Europe because they can use more efficient stock and have smoother borders.

i think we all in agreement here, while economicly dead in the water always a fun though experiment in what if situations

 

[zwk500]

on the boarder checks yea while EU to UK check are a non starter due to HO demands would they be so demanding on exit checks for UK to EU services?, especally if run as NoL routes to locations that already have return facilities like Paris, Brussels and Amsterdam?

The UK government would be less worried about outgoing checks (Current checks are largely due to carriers being over-cautious about bringing people to the country that aren't allowed in, although I think they do have checks for outstanding Warrants etc to stop wanted people leaving the country. I think the biggest issue with UK -> EU checks is likely to be EU administrations wanting to reciprocate UK demands back to them to prove a point/try and persuade them to lighten the restrictions.

 

[AdamWW]

Agreed. Given flight and day train times a sleeper is a novelty not a transport service for the UK - hence the rebrand of the Calley sleeper. Its different in Europe because they can use more efficient stock and have smoother borders.

I strongly disagree.

I have used the Caledonian Sleeper many times when any alternative would have been far less convenient.

That's not to say that it would have been reasonable to continue to subsidise it at the prices that made it work for me, but that's a different matter.

 

[zwk500]

I strongly disagree.

I have used the Caledonian Sleeper many times when any alternative would have been far less convenient.

That's not to say that it would have been reasonable to continue to subsidise it at the prices that made it work for me, but that's a different matter.

With respect I don't think the subsidy is a different matter. The fact it requires a subsidy of around £100 a ticket proves it is not an economic transport option and requires significant market intervention to make it viable as a transport option.

Once HS2 gets going the Lowland option will be under serious threat.

 

[Stephen Lee]

EC announces 10 cross-border passenger rail pilot projects

EC has published a list of 10 pilot projects to introduce new cross-border passenger rail services or improve existing ones

www.railjournal.com

Guys, I wondered which rolling stock will be used in the following proposed routes.

Hungary: new services connecting Hungary, Austria and western Romania

Scandinavia: new SJ Stockholm - Copenhagen - Berlin night train service and Hamburg - Gothenburg (possibly Oslo) day train in cooperation with Danish State Railways (DSB) and German Rail (DB); enhanced Snälltaget Stockholm - Copenhagen - Berlin night train service, new Czech Railways (CD) Prague - Berlin - Copenhagen service in cooperation with DB and DSB; and new Leipzig - Berlin - Copenhagen - Stockholm Flixtrain service

Midnight Trains: new Paris - Milan - Venice night train

Flixtrain: new Munich - Zurich day train

Westbahn: extension of Munich - Vienna day trains to Budapest

Netherlands Railways (NS): expansion of Amsterdam - London Eurostar service

European Sleeper: new Amsterdam - Barcelona night train

Italian State Railways (FS) and DB; new Rome - Munich and Milan - Munich services

 

[duesselmartin]

Night trains I can only imagine the Siemens NJ platform. The market is not that big so there is not that much competion.
As to day services, anything is possilbe, Siemens, Alstom, Stadler, Hitachi.

 

[StephenHunter]

Night trains I can only imagine the Siemens NJ platform. The market is not that big so there is not that much competion.
As to day services, anything is possilbe, Siemens, Alstom, Stadler, Hitachi.

Midnight Trains seem to want catering vehicles, though. New NJ rakes don't have any.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

Midnight Trains seem to want catering vehicles, though. New NJ rakes don't have any.

But Siemens so build a Restaurant as part of that family of trains so it wouldn’t exactly he difficult to incorporate that into a newly ordered NJ set.

 

[superalbs]

Night trains I can only imagine the Siemens NJ platform. The market is not that big so there is not that much competion.
As to day services, anything is possilbe, Siemens, Alstom, Stadler, Hitachi.

Stadler build sleepers for European gauge too.