European Commission supports 10 cross-border rail projects

[U-Bahnfreund]

Today the EC announced they would support 10 cross-border rail projects, that responded to a request for proposals for support.

These include:
- Vienna - Budapest - Oradea/Arad (Hungarian Ministry of Transport)
- Germany - Denmark - Sweden with various services: SJ night train Stockholm-Berlin, SJ/DSB/DB day train Hamburg-Gothenburg (-Oslo), Snälltåget night train Stockholm-Berlin, ČD/DSB/DB Prague-Copenhagen, Flixtrain Leipzig-Stockholm (all routes via Copenhagen)
- night train Paris - Milan - Venice (Midnight Trains)
- Munich - Zurich (Flixtrain)
- Munich - Vienna - Budapest (Westbahn), extension of existing service
- Amsterdam - London, enhancement of existing service (whatever that means) (NS/Eurostar)
- Rome - Munich, Milan - Munich (FS/DB)
- Lisbon - A Coruña, Lisbon - Madrid (ILSA = Trenitalia)
- Barcelona - Toulouse, Barcelona - Montpellier (Ferrocarrils de la Generalitat de Catalunya)

More details and source in the press release of the commission: https://transport.ec.europa.eu/news...ervices-boost-cross-border-rail-2023-01-31_en

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I did see that Romania has commenced a project to electrify and upgrade Cluj-Oradea-Episcopia Bihor on the HU border.
The first project above looks like the Hungarian extension from Biharkarestesz on to Püspökladány, which would complete a second electrified route HU-RO.
Szolnok-Lokoshaza-Curtici-Arad (also being doubled in RO) is currently the only wired route between the two countries.

 

[Fragezeichnen]

Wow, this seems like quite a change a strategy, even if it's just supporting pilot projects, and one I'm very pleased to see it
So far they've stuck to supporting investment in infrastructure, and ignored the calls to intervene to help solve the stubborn problems which seem to crop up in trying to operate international rail services.

• Trenitalia from Lisbon - Madrid. A day train apparently(with stock from where??). Great to see, but it will be very slow due to terrible infrastructure, I would have thought a night train would make more sense.
• Munich - Rome(DB) - an extension of the Munich - Verona service would be great. Not possible until they get RailJets due to shunting issues in Roma Termini, most likely.
• Munich - Zurich (Flixtrain) - Don't really see the advantage herewill inevitably be slower than the not especially busy existing service(unless they buy some brand new tilting trains)
• Barcelona - Toulouse, Barcelona - Montpellier (FGC). I assume from the map and wording they mean via the barely-used high speed line, which would be fantastic but quite a change for them from running an metro service.

 

[StephenHunter]

Midnight Trains are a French company with some pretty big investors behind them I believe - they've said they are going to buying their sleeper stock now. These are also the people with a stated ambition to do Paris-Edinburgh, which is a topic for another thread, but Paris-Venice is a realistic starter.

 

[U-Bahnfreund]

Some more details on the Vienna-Budapest-Arad/Oradea services by the former Hungarian transport secretary of state: https://twitter.com/vitdavid/status/1620541396087349248

Summary: 2 tph Vienna-Budapest. Of these 1tp2h continues to Arad, another 1tp2h to Oradea, thanks to capacity upgrades through Budapest (southern rail bridge over Danube), as well as general line upgrades to 160 km/h and ETCS

 

[Austriantrain]

Munich - Rome(DB) - an extension of the Munich - Verona service would be great. Not possible until they get RailJets due to shunting issues in Roma Termini, most likely.

This one is almost certain to run with TI ETR610. I doubt RJ2 will be approved for the Bologna - Firenze HSL anytime soon, or ever (because of the high weight of ÖBB 1216).

In fact, a year ago there were provisional paths for a ETR610-run Milano - Munich in the timetable, but apparently the train could not be agreed upon in the end.

 

[philg999]

In the referenced link, the list also includes ‘European Sleeper - Amsterdam to Barcelona’! Does this mean the service actually stands a chance of starting? That is one complicated route! Would it be allowed to use the high speed line to BCN without using high speed stock? If not it would require a gauge change, which would be super pricey for an independent operator.

 

[Austriantrain]

In the referenced link, the list also includes ‘European Sleeper - Amsterdam to Barcelona’! Does this mean the service actually stands a chance of starting? That is one complicated route! Would it be allowed to use the high speed line to BCN without using high speed stock? If not it would require a gauge change, which would be super pricey for an independent operator.

Since the HSL Perpignan - Barcelona is used for freight as well, a LHCS passenger train there should be feasible.

 

[Alex Mihai]

I did see that Romania has commenced a project to electrify and upgrade Cluj-Oradea-Episcopia Bihor on the HU border.
The first project above looks like the Hungarian extension from Biharkarestesz on to Püspökladány, which would complete a second electrified route HU-RO.
Szolnok-Lokoshaza-Curtici-Arad (also being doubled in RO) is currently the only wired route between the two countries.

Sadly the Cluj-Oradea-Episcopia Bihor electrification will take quite a while, as the design phase is scheduled to take 6 months and the construction phase 3 years. And looking at how other projects usually go here, there will be delays for sure.

 

[popeter45]

- Amsterdam - London, enhancement of existing service (whatever that means) (NS/Eurostar)

are NS part of the current amsterdam service?, almost sounds to me here that idea is NS could take over that route?
eurostar do London to Paris and brussels
thalys do Paris to amsterdam via brussels
NS do London to Amsterdam maybe skipping brussels?

almost reviving DB's abandoned project as i belive that was gonna go via amsterdam for some reason (at least thats what german wikipedia says)?

 

[zwk500]

are NS part of the current amsterdam service?, almost sounds to me here that idea is NS could take over that route?
eurostar do London to Paris and brussels
thalys do Paris to amsterdam via brussels
NS do London to Amsterdam maybe skipping brussels?

NS are part of making the Eurostar service happen in that they provide the paths and manage the stations etc, but they're not part of Eurostar itself. Eurostar operating the service remains the most sensible option as the drivers then can work through (and interwork with Paris and potentially even Thalys diagrams now)

almost reviving DB's abandoned project as i belive that was gonna go via amsterdam for some reason (at least thats what german wikipedia says)?

Original 2011 Plans had trains to Amsterdam and Frankfurt according to English wikipedia as well. Later 2017 proposals were scaled back to just London-Frankfurt but then pulled in 2018 because the finances didn't stack up. However these proposals aren't about through trains to Germany, yet. The e320s are German-compatible though.

 

[AdamWW]

NS are part of making the Eurostar service happen in that they provide the paths and manage the stations etc, but they're not part of Eurostar itself. Eurostar operating the service remains the most sensible option as the drivers then can work through (and interwork with Paris and potentially even Thalys diagrams now)

When I got the Amsterdam Eurostar the train managers or whatever they are called changed over at Brussels. Don't know about drivers.

It would make sense to me if they use the same crew that operate Thalys trains between Brussels and Amsterdam.

I can't see much sense - especially with the Eurostar/Thalys merger - to hand over Amsterdam Eurostar services to NS.

 

[zwk500]

When I got the Amsterdam Eurostar the train managers or whatever they are called changed over at Brussels. Don't know about drivers.

It would make sense to me if they use the same crew that operate Thalys trains between Brussels and Amsterdam.

I can't see much sense - especially with the Eurostar/Thalys merger - to hand over Amsterdam Eurostar services to NS.

I wouldn't be surprised if Crew did change at Brussels quite regularly, as driver's rest hours come into play and so on. Just that keeping it within Eurostar/Thalys keeps it a lot simpler than NS providing drivers for only a small section of it.

 

[rvdborgt]

NS are part of making the Eurostar service happen in that they provide the paths and manage the stations etc, but they're not part of Eurostar itself. Eurostar operating the service remains the most sensible option as the drivers then can work through (and interwork with Paris and potentially even Thalys diagrams now)

When you buy a Eurostar ticket to Rotterdam or Amsterdam, Eurostar and NS are both mentioned as operators. But whoever the operator is, you can always make agreements about which drivers run the trains. You don't have to change driver at the border. IIRC the Amsterdam-Brussels IC service used to have both Belgian and Dutch drivers who did the whole route, although this is a classic cooperation train of NS and NMBS/SNCB. Maybe this is still the case (1 driver doing the whole route), I'm not sure.

 

[zwk500]

When you buy a Eurostar ticket to Rotterdam or Amsterdam, Eurostar and NS are both mentioned as operators.

Interesting, haven't seen that. NS aren't listed as being part of the Eurostar group so maybe this is a fudge of the system?

But whoever the operator is, you can always make agreements about which drivers run the trains. You don't have to change driver at the border.

True, but companies exchanging staff aren't going to want them going and driving on somebody else's network for too long.

IIRC the Amsterdam-Brussels IC service used to have both Belgian and Dutch drivers who did the whole route, although this is a classic cooperation train of NS and NMBS/SNCB. Maybe this is still the case (1 driver doing the whole route), I'm not sure.

I believe (but could be wrong) this kind of exchange-working is quite common for lots of cross-border services in Western/Northern Europe, made easier by the shorter distances allowing round trips and so forth.

 

[AdamWW]

Interesting, haven't seen that. NS aren't listed as being part of the Eurostar group so maybe this is a fudge of the system?

True, but companies exchanging staff aren't going to want them going and driving on somebody else's network for too long.

I believe (but could be wrong) this kind of exchange-working is quite common for lots of cross-border services in Western/Northern Europe, made easier by the shorter distances allowing round trips and so forth.

I could also be wrong, but I'm pretty sure I read somewhere that Eurostar was a pioneer in having a single driver cover a whole multi-country journey rather than changing drivers at borders.

 

[DanielB]

IIRC the Amsterdam-Brussels IC service used to have both Belgian and Dutch drivers who did the whole route, although this is a classic cooperation train of NS and NMBS/SNCB. Maybe this is still the case (1 driver doing the whole route), I'm not sure.

Drivers and guards even.

Regarding Eurostar: NS is providing drivers there and actually Eurostar is also part of the NS's franchise on the Dutch part. Same applies to the Vienna/Innsbruck Nightjet, IC Berlin and ICE International. The exception is the Zürich Nightjet which is operated as commercial service.

 

[rvdborgt]

Regarding Eurostar: NS is providing drivers there and actually Eurostar is also part of the NS's franchise on the Dutch part. Same applies to the Vienna/Innsbruck Nightjet, IC Berlin and ICE International.

And to Thalys services.
This may all change once the new NS franchise starts (2025).

 

[zwk500]

I could also be wrong, but I'm pretty sure I read somewhere that Eurostar was a pioneer in having a single driver cover a whole multi-country journey rather than changing drivers at borders.

That would make sense, as before that most cross-border services were agreements between the relevant national companies, rather than a completely standalone Operator.

 

[Austriantrain]

I could also be wrong, but I'm pretty sure I read somewhere that Eurostar was a pioneer in having a single driver cover a whole multi-country journey rather than changing drivers at borders.

Possibly for the whole journey, but at least parts of the journey is not unheard of: ÖBB drivers are on EC(E) Zurich - Munich services all the way to Munich and have (or are about to) started to work from St Gallen.

The real issue is language. Not a big problem between Brussels and Amsterdam, but a huge one between Vienna and Budapest, e.g.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 2 Feb 2023 ==

Drivers and guards even.

Guards are routine, if the language issues is sorted. ÖBB and SBB guards for instance routinely interwork between Innsbruck and Zurich.

See above, the problem is languages.

 

[StephenHunter]

Drivers and guards even.

Regarding Eurostar: NS is providing drivers there and actually Eurostar is also part of the NS's franchise on the Dutch part. Same applies to the Vienna/Innsbruck Nightjet, IC Berlin and ICE International. The exception is the Zürich Nightjet which is operated as commercial service.

NS doesn't actually provide the locomotives on the Nightjet though - those are leased from European Locomotive Leasing and have German registrations. They also don't provide the on-train staff, which is Newrest Wagons-Lits, the successors to CIWL.

 

[MarcVD]

That would make sense, as before that most cross-border services were agreements between the relevant national companies, rather than a completely standalone Operator.

Belgian drivers were driving hle16 locs all the way from Brussels to Basel in the 1970s.

 

[DanielB]

NS doesn't actually provide the locomotives on the Nightjet though - those are leased from European Locomotive Leasing and have German registrations. They also don't provide the on-train staff, which is Newrest Wagons-Lits, the successors to CIWL.

Well, where did I state they do then? But as NS is leasing them you could say they provide the locomotives, but definitely they provide drivers.

The real issue is language. Not a big problem between Brussels and Amsterdam, but a huge one between Vienna and Budapest, e.g.

With Belgium you've got to be careful however. The Belgian train to Maastricht is ran from Hasselt depot currently for example, as there have been too many issues with Walloon drivers who couldn't communicate in Dutch.
And sometimes it would work in one direction only: it's probably easier to find Dutch drivers speaking German to drive trains to Germany, than to find German drivers speaking Dutch.

 

[ShadowKnight]

I believe almost any international train into the Netherlands has to be 'operated' through NS international

 

[AdamWW]

With Belgium you've got to be careful however. The Belgian train to Maastricht is ran from Hasselt depot currently for example, as there have been too many issues with Walloon drivers who couldn't communicate in Dutch.
And sometimes it would work in one direction only: it's probably easier to find Dutch drivers speaking German to drive trains to Germany, than to find German drivers speaking Dutch.

Of course with air traffic the problem is solved by making everyone speak English....

 

[zwk500]

Of course with air traffic the problem is solved by making everyone speak English....

Although that can cause it's own problems.

 

[rvdborgt]

With Belgium you've got to be careful however. The Belgian train to Maastricht is ran from Hasselt depot currently for example, as there have been too many issues with Walloon drivers who couldn't communicate in Dutch.

They know they have to send a driver who speaks Dutch but they sometimes didn't. That went unnoticed, as long as the driver didn't need to communicate with the signal box in Maastricht. A friend of mine once witnessed, during a signalling failure, that the guard had to interpret between the driver and the signal box. Of course, that driver was not allowed to drive any further..

And sometimes it would work in one direction only: it's probably easier to find Dutch drivers speaking German to drive trains to Germany, than to find German drivers speaking Dutch.

DB do a pretty good job in organising Dutch classes for their guards, so I suppose their drivers also take those. DB guards to Belgium and the Netherlands speak far better Dutch than the English or French guards on the Eurostar. I've more than once seen people burst out in laughter after hearing the "German" and "Dutch" produced by French staff on Eurostar...

 

[Austriantrain]

And sometimes it would work in one direction only: it's probably easier to find Dutch drivers speaking German to drive trains to Germany, than to find German drivers speaking Dutch.

Same here. It’s easy to find, say, Hungarian or Slovak staff who speak German, but almost impossible to find Austrian staff who speak one of our Eastern neighbours‘ languages.

 

[Trainbike46]

When I got the Amsterdam Eurostar the train managers or whatever they are called changed over at Brussels. Don't know about drivers.

Drivers switch at Brussels too; NS has a group of drivers who work Eurostar and Thalys trains exclusively

It would make sense to me if they use the same crew that operate Thalys trains between Brussels and Amsterdam.

They do, and they always have, at least for drivers

I can't see much sense - especially with the Eurostar/Thalys merger - to hand over Amsterdam Eurostar services to NS.

For pathing purposes, neither Eurostar nor Thalys operate trains in the Netherlands, all their trains are operated by NS

 

[AdamWW]

For pathing purposes, neither Eurostar nor Thalys operate trains in the Netherlands, all their trains are operated by NS

Above (I thought) someone was suggesting the plan might be for NS to become the operator of the Amsterdam Eurostar throughout (not just in the Netherlands). Which seems unlikely to me.