Project Oval: TfL win DfT contract to expand contactless system to 233 rail stations by May 2024, Railcards coming to contactless payment cards

[Harryeurostar]

What would TfL do with the official London rail and tube map? ( https://tfl.gov.uk/maps/track/national-rail ) In earlier instances like the extention of PAYG to Reading and Welwyn Garden City the stations just about squeezed into the corners of the map, when all these new stations get added into the PAYG system would they have to be put onto this map? In that case they would have to shrink it quite a bit to allow the longer extentions, Brighton, for instance to fit in or i guess they might not bother as Brighton is well outside of the official London boundary ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Just something I've been wondering and how it would be layed out in future!

 

[mattdickinson]

What would TfL do with the official London rail and tube map? ( https://tfl.gov.uk/maps/track/national-rail ) In earlier instances like the extention of PAYG to Reading and Welwyn Garden City the stations just about squeezed into the corners of the map, when all these new stations get added into the PAYG system would they have to be put onto this map? In that case they would have to shrink it quite a bit to allow the longer extentions, Brighton, for instance to fit in or i guess they might not bother as Brighton is well outside of the official London boundary ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Just something I've been wondering and how it would be layed out in future!

The Thames Valley branches haven't been added. I could envisage that map shrinking to cover the numbered zones and the lines to Reading and Shenfield only.

 

[Starmill]

The Thames Valley branches haven't been added. I could envisage that map shrinking to cover the numbered zones and the lines to Reading and Shenfield only.

The GWR website says that they have.

Contactless pay as you go can now be used on both GWR and TfL Rail services between Reading and London Paddington.
Now there’s no need to top up or queue for tickets at the station.

• use your contactless debit/credit card, or mobile device, to pay for journeys by touching in and out
• TfL’s Oyster card also offers pay as you go but isn’t available between Reading and West Drayton, fares and daily caps are the same

As contactless pay as you go is based on single fares, it may not always be the cheapest way to pay for a journey. Find out more about pay as you go fares.
Always remember to touch in and out. Find out more, and register, at contactless.tfl.gov.uk.

Fare capping​

Caps limit how much you pay for all your journeys in one day or week.

Start using your contactless payment card on a Monday for maximum benefit. Although you can buy a paper season ticket to start on any day of the week, capping always calculates your travel week from a Monday and finishes on the following Sunday.

For many journeys, particularly those only going as far as Paddington, it may be cheaper to buy a paper season ticket, rather than use Weekly (Monday – Sunday) capping. Find out more about fare capping here.

For journeys involving stations Reading through to Iver, capping levels are the same as the paper Travelcard fares to London Zones 1-6 for Anytime Day (Peak), Off-Peak Day and Weekly Season tickets. Details of these caps can be found here.

Stations beyond Zone 6​

Contactless pay as you go is available on the GWR network beyond London Zone 6 to the following stations:

• Iver
• Langley
• Slough
• Windsor & Eton Central
• Burnham
• Taplow
• Maidenhead
• Furze Platt
• Cookham
• Bourne End
• Marlow
• Twyford
• Wargrave
• Shiplake
• Henley-on-Thames
• Reading

The Rail & Tube map is very odd and shows them as arrows within the blue shaded area, which implies they're inside the pay as you go area but doesn't really help much.

The TfL adult caps PDF doesn't mention the branches: https://tfl.gov.uk/cdn/static/cms/documents/national-rail-adult-fares.pdf

 

[mattdickinson]

The GWR website says that they have.

The Rail & Tube map is very odd and shows them as arrows within the blue shaded area, which implies they're inside the pay as you go area but doesn't really help much.

The TfL adult caps PDF doesn't mention the branches: https://tfl.gov.uk/cdn/static/cms/documents/national-rail-adult-fares.pdf

I meant that they hadnt been added to the map.

 

[matt_world2004]

I've noticed some contactless readers have become very unreliable recently for four days in a row I got max fared for not touching in and out at beckinham junction only for the fare to be retroactively adjusted later when the touch ins were added back in

 

[Starmill]

I meant that they hadnt been added to the map.

They have been added to the map if you consider the arrows being inside the shaded area rather than outside it to be 'on the map'.

 

[Chriso]

I've noticed some contactless readers have become very unreliable recently for four days in a row I got max fared for not touching in and out at beckinham junction only for the fare to be retroactively adjusted later when the touch ins were added back in

Yes the same thing happened to me on Sunday at Ruislip

 

[Starmill]

I've noticed some contactless readers have become very unreliable recently for four days in a row I got max fared for not touching in and out at beckinham junction only for the fare to be retroactively adjusted later when the touch ins were added back in

Unfortunately some but not all touches coming through a day or two late does happen from time to time, and is kind of an inherent risk for contactless pay as you go in a way it isn't for a smartcard. As you say, if there's more than a business day between the touches arriving, the card may be billed the wrong amount then adjusted when the touches do come through, or any difference refunded if necessary. The good thing is at least it won't usually need manual intervention, but of course some people will see it and get in touch anyway.

 

[MikeWh]

I've noticed some contactless readers have become very unreliable recently for four days in a row I got max fared for not touching in and out at beckinham junction only for the fare to be retroactively adjusted later when the touch ins were added back in

That will be a problem with the data link between Beckenham Junction and the central database. It does happen sometimes.

 

[londonbridge]

I've noticed some contactless readers have become very unreliable recently for four days in a row I got max fared for not touching in and out at beckinham junction only for the fare to be retroactively adjusted later when the touch ins were added back in

Saturday I travelled from East Croydon to South Bermondsey for football. Touched in and out correctly throughout, on the return leg I looked at my account to see what I’d been charged and the return was showing as South Bermondsey to South Bermondsey auto completed journey. After touching out at Croydon it then updated and displayed the journey correctly.

 

[Horizon22]

The Thames Valley branches haven't been added. I could envisage that map shrinking to cover the numbered zones and the lines to Reading and Shenfield only.

Or just Greater London & any TfL-run services outside of it (Met, Elizabeth line etc.)

 

[James H]

Paper from TfL with more detail published tonight:

The current programme splits delivery of the 233 stations into two phases: (a) initial phase – 52 stations; and (b) main phase – 181 stations.

Following the Chancellor’s Autumn Statement, both DfT and TfL are aiming to complete all of the initial 52 stations by December 2023. 7

The 52 stations have been selected as an early deliverable due to validation equipment already being installed at the stations and the existing fares structure. While both will require some enhancement for PAYG services to commence, the work required to expand contactless acceptance is similar in scope and complexity to a number of previous PAYG extensions that TfL has successfully completed at locations including Epsom, Luton Airport Parkway, and as part of the Elizabeth line readiness, at Reading.

Source

 

[Fazaar1889]

Which stations are the initial 52 stations?

 

[Snow1964]

Which stations are the initial 52 stations?

The public document doesn't name them, but says they already have validators etc.

 

[Fazaar1889]

The public document doesn't name them, but says they already have validators etc.

Thanks

 

[chris_in_salop]

I've read through the whole thread, and I'm still none the wiser. This is going to be an expensive and disruptive project. Whatever the exciting aspirations announced at the start, high-level meddling and electoral deadlines are likely to produce a typically British half-finished, value-engineered fudge.

What's the point?

 

[Capvermell]

What's the point?

To provide an excuse to get rid of the cheapest non advance purchase linked return tickets (eg Off Peak Return and Super Off Peak Return) in favour of two substantially more expensive single contactless journeys instead it would appear. But all in the alleged name of greater simplicity in purchasing tickets and supposedly being fairer to the relatively small number of people who make a lot of single rather than return railway journeys.

But its a bit like the ULEZ and Congestion Charge i.e. the technology to do it is created and then the rest inevitably follows.

 

[JonathanH]

Whatever the exciting aspirations announced at the start, high-level meddling and electoral deadlines are likely to produce a typically British half-finished, value-engineered fudge.

In what way is it a fudge? A lot of the relevant stations already have ticket gates so it is a relatively easy expansion programme.

It clearly can only ever be extended over a limited distance for reasons set out many times.

This is going to be an expensive and disruptive project.

The previous expansions have been implemented fairly easily without much disruption.

What's the point?

The point is customer expectations. Passengers travelling in the London area expect to be able to travel by Contactless to stations beyond the current boundaries. Commuters are pressing for Contactless at their stations for the convenience it brings.

Only yesterday morning I saw someone at my local station just outside the Contactless boundary trying to touch out with a credit card and being surprised the barriers weren't opening for them.

 

[Capvermell]

Only yesterday morning I saw someone at my local station just outside the Contactless boundary trying to touch out with a credit card and being surprised the barriers weren't opening for them.

I was certainly pretty surprised when I found that SouthWestern's barriers at Putney wouldn't open for the journey I started with The Key at Southern's Ockley station (using the card readers for The Key there even though the station is unbarriered and unmanned) in January when they had opened and I was charged correctly for my journey from Ockley to Wimbledon and back also starting from Ockley on The Key only a couple of weeks earlier.

It seems that Wimbledon is supported by The Key because GTR Thameslink trains also call there but Putney isn't as no GTR operated trains serve this destination.

 

[CyrusWuff]

The public document doesn't name them, but says they already have validators etc.

Spoiler: They don't.

From the map that was published, Phase 1 for Chiltern (for example) covers the six stations from Denham to High Wycombe.

Of those, only Gerrards Cross, Beaconsfield and High Wycombe are gated, and High Wycombe still has manual wide gates, and all of them except Denham have two entrances.

That's quite a few validators to be installed and gate readers to be upgraded for just six stations.

 

[hwl]

Spoiler: They don't.

From the map that was published, Phase 1 for Chiltern (for example) covers the six stations from Denham to High Wycombe.

Of those, only Gerrards Cross, Beaconsfield and High Wycombe are gated, and High Wycombe still has manual wide gates, and all of them except Denham have two entrances.

That's quite a few validators to be installed and gate readers to be upgraded for just six stations.

1. The public map on this thread is years out of date so best to ignore - it doesn't even cover the full number of stations!
2. The "already have validators" reference is to the 52 stations going live in 2023, the 181 stations on routes where existing gating is sporadic will follow in 2024.

Stations / routes where the operator has previously rolled out their own smart cards well e,g. Govia's Key (GTR and SE) will tend to be in the earlier stations.

 

[SWT_USER]

Spoiler: They don't.

From the map that was published, Phase 1 for Chiltern (for example) covers the six stations from Denham to High Wycombe.

Of those, only Gerrards Cross, Beaconsfield and High Wycombe are gated, and High Wycombe still has manual wide gates, and all of them except Denham have two entrances.

That's quite a few validators to be installed and gate readers to be upgraded for just six stations.

Can the readers for operator specific smart cards be adapted to accept contactless card payments? If so all SWR stations could be done fairly easily

 

[Roast Veg]

Can the readers for operator specific smart cards be adapted to accept contactless card payments? If so all SWR stations could be done fairly easily

Yes. It's all NFC under the hood.

 

[SWT_USER]

Yes. It's all NFC under the hood.

Thanks. Incredible it's taken this long then really

 

[Bletchleyite]

I've read through the whole thread, and I'm still none the wiser. This is going to be an expensive and disruptive project. Whatever the exciting aspirations announced at the start, high-level meddling and electoral deadlines are likely to produce a typically British half-finished, value-engineered fudge.

What's the point?

Disruptive how? If you want to continue using paper tickets or e-tickets do so, they will not be abolished, at least not in the medium term.

I do think it's the wrong system and that a system should be put in place more like KeyGo that could theoretically be rolled out nationally, though - specifically, one that works with the existing style fares system. A London style concentric zone system is only applicable to the South East, I would prefer aspirations to a national system (rather than a set of non-overlapping incompatible ones) which this will lock out.

 

[Capvermell]

From the map that was published, Phase 1 for Chiltern (for example) covers the six stations from Denham to High Wycombe.

Of those, only Gerrards Cross, Beaconsfield and High Wycombe are gated, and High Wycombe still has manual wide gates, and all of them except Denham have two entrances.

That's quite a few validators to be installed and gate readers to be upgraded for just six stations.

Having gates surely has nothing at all to do with having card validators?

Southern's totally unmanned Holmwood station is shown on the original Project Oval map as being in the scheme and has The Key compatible card validators but no barriers. In fact there are numerous stations without barriers on for instance the DLR and London Overground.

Having said that I have largely given up using The Key precisely because there are no gates at Ockley and because the barriers are always open at Victoria when I arrive to get the 2325 train to Ockley with the result it is far too easy to forget to tap in and tap out at every relevant station with The Key. By contrast a paper one day travelcard ticket has precisely none of these issues. Its only issue is that many barriers on TfL's and Southern's network have broken card readers and/or that my paper ticket sometimes gets damaged and cannot be read by those card readers.

 

[Taunton]

That's quite often a case on TfL network and it's enough to log in and link these two journeys into one. System often does it for you after couple of days. It also automatically completes a journey if you forget to touch out and you make the same journey often - not necessarily everyday.
It supposedly wouldn't block the card in that scenario. And it also may allow for more incomplete journeys before it gets blocked.

I don't know how easy it would be for TfL or TOC to trace customers details with unregistered cards but I guess they could at least get hold of the name on the card? But certainly it'll be easy for registered cards which I guess will be a requirement for anyone who will want to add their Railcard discount to their card.

I'm a more informed user than most and I don't have any facility set up to log in to. Nor (in a quick poll around just now) does anyone else currently in my office.

I've rarely had an auto-complete, even the silly initial arrangement between DLR and Elizabeth at Custom House, extensively commented on from the first Elizabeth opening day, took a couple of months before it was corrected. Or, all rushed out at Marble Arch because the fire alarms had gone off, that wasn't auto-completed either, apparently because I'm not a regular there and didn't come back in at the same station later in the day. One wonders how much revenue TfL make from Maximum Fares, and how much they budget for with them. Maybe someone should do a Freedom of Information request. This whole attitude that anyone not entirely compliant with the complex scheme is a dangerous fraudster to be fined just seems to come from the scheme proponents.

It's not just "forgot" to touch out. Failures of the touch-out pad at unattended stations (DLR Crossharbour, regularly looking at you), people with multiple cards who touch in with one and out with another and get TWO penalty fares for incompletes, because TfL never made any provision for having multiple cards and linking them together, and a range of other issues quite capable of resolution.

 

[jon81uk]

I've read through the whole thread, and I'm still none the wiser. This is going to be an expensive and disruptive project. Whatever the exciting aspirations announced at the start, high-level meddling and electoral deadlines are likely to produce a typically British half-finished, value-engineered fudge.

What's the point?

Why should it be disruptive? Installing ticket gates might narrow entrances, but quieter stations will just get a reader pad which won't take up much space.

Given it is based on existing technology used at most stations in the London area I can't see it getting value-engineered. The only cost that could be cut is just installing touch pads instead of full ticket gates, but I expect most stations where it is felt worthwhile to have gates already have them.

The main point is that passengers in London and the surrounding area expect it.
There are enormous signs all over Tottenham Hale station barriers stating that you cannot use contactless/Oyster to Stansted Airport, many people tap in at the barrier expecting to be able to tap out at Stansted and are then surprosed when they get a penalty fare. If they can tap in and out for the full journey it makes a much smoother experiance.

Personally it would also save me the few minutes of buying a ticket each morning on the app and scanning an e-ticket if I can just tap instead.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 22 Feb 2023 ==

I'm a more informed user than most and I don't have any facility set up to log in to. Nor (in a quick poll around just now) does anyone else currently in my office.

I've rarely had an auto-complete, even the silly initial arrangement between DLR and Elizabeth at Custom House, extensively commented on from the first Elizabeth opening day, took a couple of months before it was corrected. Or, all rushed out at Marble Arch because the fire alarms had gone off, that wasn't auto-completed either, apparently because I'm not a regular there and didn't come back in at the same station later in the day. One wonders how much revenue TfL make from Maximum Fares, and how much they budget for with them. Maybe someone should do a Freedom of Information request. This whole attitude that anyone not entirely compliant with the complex scheme is a dangerous fraudster to be fined just seems to come from the scheme proponents.

It's not just "forgot" to touch out. Failures of the touch-out pad at unattended stations (DLR Crossharbour, regularly looking at you), people with multiple cards who touch in with one and out with another and get TWO penalty fares for incompletes, because TfL never made any provision for having multiple cards and linking them together, and a range of other issues quite capable of resolution.

Oyster has been around for 20 years and the ability to log into the website and check the journey history has been there for most of that time too so I expect people should be aware of the option to check journey history.

People have asked for the information about incomplete journeys via FoI and TfL already publish it here.

Contactless payment

This page shows the number of contactless payment cards that have been used since we launched the system

tfl.gov.uk

Oyster card

Information on how many cards have been used, how much money is on Oyster cards, information on usage of the photocard schemes and sales of Oyster cards by different types of outlet

tfl.gov.uk

 

[Capvermell]

I've rarely had an auto-complete, even the silly initial arrangement between DLR and Elizabeth at Custom House, extensively commented on from the first Elizabeth opening day, took a couple of months before it was corrected. Or, all rushed out at Marble Arch because the fire alarms had gone off, that wasn't auto-completed either, apparently because I'm not a regular there and didn't come back in at the same station later in the day.

It's not just "forgot" to touch out. Failures of the touch-out pad at unattended stations (DLR Crossharbour, regularly looking at you), people with multiple cards who touch in with one and out with another and get TWO penalty fares for incompletes, because TfL never made any provision for having multiple cards and linking them together, and a range of other issues.

When I couldn't touch out at Putney with The Key for a journey I started at Ockley on Southern's network (I was let in and out manually by staff on the barriers at Putney after explaining I had expected The Key to work there) I later ridiculously got an auto complete assuming I had ended my journey at Brighton.

I then amended my journey online on Southern's website to a station that cost within a few pence of the return journey to Wimbledon from Ockley and also emailed Southern's customer services who accepted this as a legitimate course of action as I was unaware The Key would not work at Putney.

 

[Taunton]

Oyster has been around for 20 years and the ability to log into the website and check the journey history has been there for most of that time too so I expect people should be aware of the option to check journey history.

I'm afraid my quick check (above) thus shows how little use is made of this. Passengers should not be overcharged and then be expected to spend their evenings acting as surrogate accountants to correct incorrect assumptions to recover their money that TfL have helped themselves to.