Northern 158s, differences in interior noise/comfort.

[Swanley 59]

Of all the classes I routinely encounter, Northern 158s provide the most variable travelling experience. Some are relatively quiet and smooth riding, some rattle and vibrate a little more than they should, some are noisy and shake like Shakin' Stevens, and there is 158860. On today's 20-minute jaunt from Newcastle - Morpeth, the entire unit shook like an out-of-balance automatic washer on a 1400 rpm spin cycle, and the engine roar was louder than Deep Purple in their pomp.

It took me back to the dark days of the Class 101 when they were falling apart.

 

[Geeves]

So far as I understand it the majority of the Perkins engined 158s are all allocated to Heaton, I know they do perform a little differently from the regular Cummins ones

 

[Razorblades]

So far as I understand it the majority of the Perkins engined 158s are all allocated to Heaton, I know they do perform a little differently from the regular Cummins ones

158815-862 is the block. All 16 Northern units in the range are Heaton allocated, along with a lone Cummins example (158792). The majority are TfW's, plus a handful of EMR units.

 

[Mzzzs]

Out of curiosity but what is the reason that some have the Perkins? not Cummins.

 

[43096]

Out of curiosity but what is the reason that some have the Perkins? not Cummins.

BR’s dual sourcing policy.

 

[Razorblades]

Out of curiosity but what is the reason that some have the Perkins? not Cummins.

When BREL was building the 158s there were a couple of thoughts. With the 165 and 166 then on order there was a desire from Head of Purchasing to dual-source high value items for the purpose of supply resilience. Also, to get experience with the Perkins engines on Class 158 before the 165s entered service (this didn't happen in practice as the 158s so-fitted were delivered from Derby around the same time as York delivered the 165s).

 

[Mzzzs]

When BREL was building the 158s there were a couple of thoughts. With the 165 and 166 then on order there was a desire from Head of Purchasing to dual-source high value items for the purpose of supply resilience. Also, to get experience with the Perkins engines on Class 158 before the 165s entered service (this didn't happen in practice as the 158s so-fitted were delivered from Derby around the same time as York delivered the 165s).

Thanks

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 7 Feb 2023 ==

BR’s dual sourcing policy.

Thanks

 

[43096]

When BREL was building the 158s there were a couple of thoughts. With the 165 and 166 then on order there was a desire from Head of Purchasing to dual-source high value items for the purpose of supply resilience. Also, to get experience with the Perkins engines on Class 158 before the 165s entered service (this didn't happen in practice as the 158s so-fitted were delivered from Derby around the same time as York delivered the 165s).

BR and its dual sourcing policy often ended with less than ideal outcomes. Think of HST traction motors: the dual-sourced GEC alternative was disastrous and has had to be "lived with" throughout their life. The 158 and 165 engines was similarly a poor choice: they had something that worked well (Cummins), so why go for anything else? Classes 165 and 166 should similarly gone for Cummins: arguably the 350hp version under 165s and the 400hp engine (as used on 158863-872 and 159001-022) under the 166s. I'll bet the procurement analysis that lead to this situation ignored the cost of additional spares, fitter knowledge etc etc.

 

[Mzzzs]

BR and its dual sourcing policy often ended with less than ideal outcomes. Think of HST traction motors: the dual-sourced GEC alternative was disastrous and has had to be "lived with" throughout their life. The 158 and 165 engines was similarly a poor choice: they had something that worked well (Cummins), so why go for anything else? Classes 165 and 166 should similarly gone for Cummins: arguably the 350hp version under 165s and the 400hp engine (as used on 158863-872 and 159001-022) under the 166s. I'll bet the procurement analysis that lead to this situation ignored the cost of additional spares, fitter knowledge etc etc.

Yes this idea of dual-sourcing policy just kind of seems a bit odd to me. Seems like it's a forced idea. Even to me a business student i could see that it's not a good idea.
Much better to have commonality between units it probably could have been of some help now with turbos having a parts shortage.

 

[Iskra]

Yes this idea of dual-sourcing policy just kind of seems a bit odd to me. Seems like it's a forced idea. Even to me a business student i could see that it's not a good idea.
Much better to have commonality between units it probably could have been of some help now with turbos having a parts shortage.

It means you can play suppliers against each other to prevent a monopoly and keep prices lower ...in theory.

 

[Razorblades]

BR and its dual sourcing policy often ended with less than ideal outcomes. Think of HST traction motors: the dual-sourced GEC alternative was disastrous and has had to be "lived with" throughout their life. The 158 and 165 engines was similarly a poor choice: they had something that worked well (Cummins), so why go for anything else? Classes 165 and 166 should similarly gone for Cummins: arguably the 350hp version under 165s and the 400hp engine (as used on 158863-872 and 159001-022) under the 166s. I'll bet the procurement analysis that lead to this situation ignored the cost of additional spares, fitter knowledge etc etc.

I didn't work on the 158 project, and the 165/166 contract had already been won when I was recruited to the Project Team in late 1989, so the machinations of what had gone on at HQ level was history at that stage, we just had to deliver what had been contracted!

Your last point is correct - unlike the late '90s (to the present day), the organisation of the railway back then didn't require the train builder to consider whole life costs, or make pence per mile comparisons with alternative traction. We just designed, built, commissioned and handed over the trains (plus manuals, main spares, drawings etc) to the owning sector for service. There was warranty of course, but the true cost (at granular level at least) of ownership and operation wasn't considered in the same way it is today.

 

[Swanley 59]

So far as I understand it the majority of the Perkins engined 158s are all allocated to Heaton, I know they do perform a little differently from the regular Cummins ones

Were engines and transmissions overhauled in the recent refurbishment, or were the changes purely cosmetic? A lot of the Heaton units look very smart, but they don't seem to be in great mechanical condition.

 

[Geeves]

As far as I know all of the 15x fleet has the engines sent off and rebuilt/refurbished at LH Group on a 500? thousand mile basis. As far as the rest of the components go I can't say, but everything is monitored and checked exam wise regularly. I guess at the age they are some of bound to be worse than others. The 3 car ones seem to be best of the bunch.

 

[Razorblades]

As far as I know all of the 15x fleet has the engines sent off and rebuilt/refurbished at LH Group on a 500? thousand mile basis. As far as the rest of the components go I can't say, but everything is monitored and checked exam wise regularly.

LH Group (now part of Wabtec Rail) explicitly set up production cells to overhaul/ refurbish several of the equipment rafts found beneath the 15X fleet. At the outset they secured a substantial guaranteed order throughput from nearby Porterbrook which got the facility really established in the field. I believe they also look after bogies and cooler groups for 15X.