Luton DART and Luton Airport Parkway Updates

[Techniquest]

£9.80 for a round trip? Good gravy that is expensive! It makes the £37 I paid for a round trip on Heathrow Express recently sound cheap, certainly it was better value than this new airport link will be!

I'm willing to pay extra to do the new link, that much I have stated before and is still true, but £9.80 is taking the biscuit. Actually, no, it's taking the whole packet of biscuits!

Perhaps Luton will have to wait a bit longer for a revisit, I think I will stick with Heathrow for now. Even Gatwick appeals more right now, and I don't rate that place too hugely either.

 

[smjxm09]

To answer the H&S question. The doors were apparently closing on people and suitcases trapping them with a vice like grip and not freeing them. One person got a shoe caught. Another person had a suitcase wheel ripped off trying to free it while another person got the extended handle of his suitcase trapped in the door. It was only freed when a passenger who actually wanted to leave the train but couldn’t pulled the suitcase back into the train. Also the trains were heading back without all the passengers having time to leave so splitting up couples that could have been families with children.

As for the question as to why a passenger would want to be picked up at Parkway. Airport staff and Luton pensioners get free travel on the Dart so there will be a demand as it will be more convenient.

 

[43066]

That’s really going to encourage modal shift isn’t it, charging a tenner per person for a service that many people might perceive or expect to be free ( ie an airport people mover taking you from a station called Luton Airport to the terminal itself).

When have they said they’re trying to encourage modal shift?

 

[Bletchleyite]

When have they said they’re trying to encourage modal shift?

They haven't, because they're not. It's about making it more of a London airport by removing the faff of the shuttle bus. Very few will drive to it from London anyway, though you may get a bit of minor modal shift from people who would drive from places near Thameslink stations to avoid the bus.

It will probably cause a bit of coach to rail shift, but that isn't that important because both are public transport anyway.

Other than from London most people using it as an origin will arrive by car/taxi anyway, as being an airline base flights tend to be at times when public transport doesn't run; there are a few coaches, but most people who have a car or can afford a taxi won't even consider them because again they're faff and unreliability.

Sure, it'll be handy to be able to park for a reasonable price at the station car park without booking, but you can do that now. I bet hardly anyone will - people looking for airport parking just don't think "I wonder if I could park cheaper at the local railway station", they just book airport parking.

 

[43066]

They haven't, because they're not. It's about making it more of a London airport by removing the faff of the shuttle bus. Very few will drive to it from London anyway, though you may get a bit of minor modal shift from people who would drive from places near Thameslink stations to avoid the bus.

Indeed - that’s certainly my impression. It just seem odd for people to criticise them for not doing something they’ve never claimed to do!

In the end it’s a case of “pays your money, takes your choice”. They’ve presumably calculated that the market will bear the price they’re proposing to charge, and they can always reduce fares if they need to.

 

[Bald Rick]

There seems to be a major misunderstanding, at least from what I understand.

The fare for ‘DART only’ is set at that level specifically to discourage people from parking / being dropped off at Luton Airport Parkway and clogging that up. Parking there is somewhat cheaper than any official airport parking, and with the DART it would be rather more convenient than any except the multi-storeys at the airport terminal (Which are typically 2-3 times the price of parkway). Already there is a significant amount of airport parking there (judging by how full it can be at 0400 on a Saturday), and the advent of the DART would have made it likely that the car park would be full, and therefore put off some non-airport rail passengers wishing to use the station.

Also, the drop off / pick up fee at the airport by the terminal is now £5.

The fare for ‘DART add-on’ will, I’m sure, be at a lower level, and will be included in the price of a ticket to ‘Luton Airport’, as it is now. It’s currently £3.80 return.

I‘d argue it will take cars off the roads to the airport, particularly for those people where the road journey time is only a little bit quicker than rail. Not least mine. For me, front door to terminal door to the airport by train is currently around 45mins, by car (being dropped off at mid stay) it’s 30 mins with no traffic, but usually around 35mins. DART will knock 10-15 mins off, so will match the car times, so I‘ll always use that in future when it opens.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Indeed - that’s certainly my impression. It just seem odd for people to criticise them for not doing something they’ve never claimed to do!

In the end it’s a case of “pays your money, takes your choice”. They’ve presumably calculated that the market will bear the price they’re proposing to charge, and they can always reduce fares if they need to.

Indeed. And if you really don't think it represents value, just use the Arriva bus. It's one of the Busway services so is frequent and isn't going to go away, costs about 2 quid and goes to the front of the terminal from the back of Parkway. Or walk; it's uphill but it really isn't that far.

 

[Haywain]

In the end it’s a case of “pays your money, takes your choice”. They’ve presumably calculated that the market will bear the price they’re proposing to charge, and they can always reduce fares if they need to.

Indeed, and very few people will be paying for the DART in isolation - most will be paying as part of a through fare from London, and will regard it as an add-on to the air fare.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I‘d argue it will take cars off the roads to the airport, particularly for those people where the road journey time is only a little bit quicker than rail. Not least mine. For me, front door to terminal door to the airport by train is currently around 45mins, by car (being dropped off at mid stay) it’s 30 mins with no traffic, but usually around 35mins. DART will knock 10-15 mins off, so will match the car times, so I‘ll always use that in future when it opens.

I suspect there will be people who live near the Thameslink line of route who will switch from car/taxi to rail, though relatively few in number. For most of the rest of the catchment car/taxi is the only viable option anyway - cross country public transport in the South East is terrible, far worse than say the North.

 

[Haywain]

Or walk; it's uphill but it really isn't that far.

From that side of Parkway station it shouldn't take much more than 15 minutes to walk to the terminal.

 

[Bald Rick]

Or walk; it's uphill but it really isn't that far.

It’s 2km, up hill, across a number of awkward road junctions, alongside very busy roads, and quite exposed to the elements. I walk a lot and consider anything under 3k walking distance, but having done this trip once (with a small cabin bag) I’ll not be doing it again.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 6 Feb 2023 ==

From that side of Parkway station it shouldn't take much more than 15 minutes to walk to the terminal.

It’s a good 20 minutes even at my pace (which is quick). For most people it will be about half an hour, especially with bags.

 

[Bletchleyite]

From that side of Parkway station it shouldn't take much more than 15 minutes to walk to the terminal.

Probably a bit more than that. Google reckons, from the Hampton by Hilton which is by those bus stops at the back, 1.2 miles/27 minutes.

It's still not that far though, if cost is the most important factor. Though I'd not do it with a trolley bag, only with a rucksack. And the first bit is quite a steep hill.

In the end if people were happy with £2 by bus they can still do that with Arriva. That route won't be going away, and because it's so short it's never going to be that expensive. Or if you're a group I suspect taxis will still hang around there.

 

[spag23]

The doors were apparently closing on people and suitcases trapping them with a vice like grip and not freeing them

It seems the train/system designers hadn't considered the possible presence of passengers, or the consequences of introducing this novel - and untested - concept; sliding doors.

 

[Watershed]

Like Heathrow Express I guess it gives an indication of what unsubsidised rail would actually cost...

Again, Heathrow Express is a highly profitable operation - or at least, it certain was before the Elizabeth line took a lot of its custom. They charge far more than is needed just to break even.

The fare for ‘DART add-on’ will, I’m sure, be at a lower level, and will be included in the price of a ticket to ‘Luton Airport’, as it is now. It’s currently £3.80 return.

The add-on might currently be £3.80 return, but I would be amazed if it stayed at that level. The DART also won't be integrated with contactless PAYG, so contactless users will effectively be 'overcharged' by paying the standalone rate for both legs.

As others have said, it would be ludicrous for Birmingham Airport to start charging for the link to Birmingham International - even though the latter offers cheaper parking - or for Gatwick to charge for the North Terminal shuttle. This actually makes me far more disinclined to use Luton Airport than before - although the higher fare from London already put it at a disadvantage it compared to Gatwick.

Of course, I realise that most people won't think too much about how they get to the airport, and so will already be a 'captive market' by the time they get to the DART.

 

[Haywain]

Google reckons, from the Hampton by Hilton which is by those bus stops at the back, 1.2 miles/27 minutes.

Google tends to err on the slow side, in my experience.

 

[spag23]

From that side of Parkway station it shouldn't take much more than 15 minutes to walk to the terminal.

The Airport imposes a hefty charge for taxi and car drop-offs. Which rockets if they have to wait (due to incompetent airside baggage handling). They also fine any driver that their CCTV spots dropping off passengers on the approach roads.
So if walking up the hill becomes popular, I reckon they'll start ticketing pedestrians:
"If you take a walk, I'll tax your feet" Taxman, Beatles 1966

 

[Bletchleyite]

Google tends to err on the slow side, in my experience.

I think you must walk faster than me - I normally find it pretty much bob-on.

Having said that, 1.2 miles in 15 minutes is a 12.5 minute mile, which is into "slow jog" territory, it's far, far faster than most people can walk. To give you an idea, Naismith's Rule for hillwalking is based on 3mph with add-on for height, and that's for fast hillwalkers. Most able bodied adults walk at about 2.5mph, I reckon.

 

[Bald Rick]

Google tends to err on the slow side, in my experience.

Yep I normally walk 25% quicker than Google. (4mph vs the 3mph it offers me).

Slower up hill and when there’s difficult road junctions to cross, though. As here.

 

[Mojo]

They haven't, because they're not. It's about making it more of a London airport by removing the faff of the shuttle bus. Very few will drive to it from London anyway, though you may get a bit of minor modal shift from people who would drive from places near Thameslink stations to avoid the bus.

Depends on where you mean by London. Aside from people who are starting in Central London or near to stations on the MML served by the stopping trains, I would imagine a fairly significant number travel by private car (by this I’m including lifts and taxi/private hire vehicles).

I live in London and it’s significantly quicker to go by car. Price wise I’ve just checked from my current location and I can get there for £50 on the FreeNow app, in a journey time of 40 Mins. CPC fare is £13.10 each, add on top of that the fare for bus or Dart transfer, journey time over 1 Hr 30 Mins. So you can understand how even a couple may be tempted to pay extra for a faster journey.

 

[A0]

It will probably cause a bit of coach to rail shift, but that isn't that important because both are public transport anyway.

BIB - I fail to see why that would be the case.

The two main reasons for using the coach are cost (i.e. it's cheaper than the train) or convenience (it picks up and sets down closer to where you are going to / from).

The main coach route is the 757 heading towards London - which runs hourly. The journey takes 35 minutes to Brent Cross, 45 minutes to Finchley Road or 1h 20 to Victoria - so direct to the West End.

Even with DART you're going to be looking at 10 mins to Luton Airport station and National Rail reckons 50-60 minutes to get to Bond Street (Elizabeth Line) so in the West End - so the time is no better than the coach.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Depends on where you mean by London. Aside from people who are starting in Central London or near to stations on the MML served by the stopping trains, I would imagine a fairly significant number travel by private car (by this I’m including lifts and taxi/private hire vehicles).

I live in London and it’s significantly quicker to go by car. Travelling with a group of 4 would also be cheaper in an App-booked or local minicab office.

And those people will continue doing that, just like people from Bletchley go by car and don't use the Marston Vale then Thameslink then the bus (though I did that once or twice it was more for fun, it was very, very slow due to poor connections).

There'll be a small amount of modal shift, but that isn't what it is for. It's just about making it more of a "London airport".

 

[1D54]

There's a reason people use 'London' Luton Airport and for most part it is down to the likes of Easyjet and Ryanair and the prices they charge so many of these people will have no intention of forking out such an outrageous fees when there are alternatives.

 

[Bletchleyite]

There's a reason people use 'London' Luton Airport and for most part it is down to the likes of Easyjet and Ryanair and the prices they charge so many of these people will have no intention of forking out such an outrageous fees when there are alternatives.

Ryanair or Wizz I might give you, but easyJet is no longer just a cheapo airline. It's the default by many business travellers etc who aren't using it because it's cheap specifically.

The combination of this people mover and the use of Thameslink makes Luton as well connected to the City as Heathrow, even with the Lizzie. That's a very powerful marketing tool, not just for passengers but also for airlines. It might even make it quicker than Heathrow as it's a remarkably quick airport to get through, particularly if you pay a fiver to jump the security queue.

 

[smjxm09]

Another interesting point is that the airport is run as a concession so any car using the drop off zone or car parks means the money goes to the airport operator, which they get to keep. Anyone using the a Dart means the money goes to the airport owner. Anyone using the car park at Luton Airport Parkway for airport parking means the money goes to the station car park operator. Passengers will then need to get to the other side of the tracks for the Dart.

 

[jon0844]

There's a reason people use 'London' Luton Airport and for most part it is down to the likes of Easyjet and Ryanair and the prices they charge so many of these people will have no intention of forking out such an outrageous fees when there are alternatives.

But these people seem to only consider how cheap their flight was and sort of accept, and ultimately ignore, all those little add-on costs (even having to pay another tenner for phone roaming, per phone, seems accepted now). I wonder what the total cost is for one of those low cost flights for an average family these days?

It's also worth bearing in mind next time someone does one of those 'cheaper to fly to x than take a train to y' stories.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 6 Feb 2023 ==

Do you happen to know what the "major health and safety issues" are?

Heart attacks brought on by being told the price?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Another interesting point is that the airport is run as a concession so any car using the drop off zone or car parks means the money goes to the airport operator, which they get to keep. Anyone using the a Dart means the money goes to the airport owner. Anyone using the car park at Luton Airport Parkway for airport parking means the money goes to the station car park operator. Passengers will then need to get to the other side of the tracks for the Dart.

It's an interesting question as to whether the Dart will allow you to buy a ticket on the car park side and go through the station to use it. If not, then that might be an adequate dissuader to parking there. Though a return to Luton or Leagrave is a fiver (3 quid off peak), would work the gates on both sides and it'd still be cheaper than parking on the airport!

 

[Kite159]

The Airport imposes a hefty charge for taxi and car drop-offs. Which rockets if they have to wait (due to incompetent airside baggage handling). They also fine any driver that their CCTV spots dropping off passengers on the approach roads.
So if walking up the hill becomes popular, I reckon they'll start ticketing pedestrians:
"If you take a walk, I'll tax your feet" Taxman, Beatles 1966

Or they will do what Bournemouth did when they introduced car park fees for under 15 minute stays, make it as hard as possible for someone to walk into the airport by ripping up pavements etc.

Although I shouldn't give Luton airport any ideas on how to make more money from passengers.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Or they will do what Bournemouth did when they introduced car park fees for under 15 minute stays, make it as hard as possible for someone to walk into the airport by ripping up pavements.

Luton's actually done the opposite, installing a pavement that wasn't there before so they could remove the Mid Stay shuttle bus and make it a "park and walk" car park. Previously you weren't meant to walk from there but lots of people did, they just crossed the road and jumped the barrier, because it made for a more predictable journey time. It's only the last half kilometre or so that's under the airport's control anyway, the majority is a public road.

 

[Mikey C]

Do you happen to know what the "major health and safety issues" are? Possible delay of the opening likely?

The people doing the test runs all fainted when they heard the prices

The M1 is congested between the M25 and Luton, but other than the evening rush hour period (say 4pm tom 7pm) normally runs ok, so the coaches will still be an attractive option for many. The A1 for example takes around 45m from Golders Green

 

[cactustwirly]

Anyone not wanting to pay that can use the Arriva bus for about two quid each way. I used that in preference to the rather grim, overcrowded dedicated bus anyway. Exit from the back of the station and the stops are right there.

This sort of nickel and diming at airports is unavoidable when the likes of Ryanair refuse to pay enough airport user charges to cover the costs of operation.

Or you can just fly from Heathrow...
Why anyone would want to pay £9.80 to fly from the worst London Airport idk