Future of the Settle to Carlisle, Bentham and Ribble Valley lines

[daodao]

RTT shows that there are paths for a loaded freight train from Teeside to Newbiggin British Gypsum, via York, Castleford and Settle, on five days per week (Tu-Sa). It appears that occasionally a variant route via Durham and Hexham, reversing at Carlisle N.Y., is used instead. Even assuming that only three of those trains typically run, hundreds of HGV movements every week to/from the works would be needed to transfer the flow to road. These would all have to use the minor road through the centre of Kirkby Thore village to access the works from the A66.

And there is a national shortage of HGV drivers.

The existence of this gypsum works is probably the key reason for retaining the S&C line as a through route for now, as there is no good alternative way to access these works other than by rail via the S&C line. However, as elsewhere, lines whose justification depends primarily or solely on freight traffic for a single commodity loaded at a single point are vulnerable to closure if (or more usually when) that traffic ceases. Through coal and other mineral traffic over the S&C line from Scotland has already disappeared.

And as I have repeatedly noted, it is expected to get more use post HS2.

I question the expectation of increased pressure on the route over Shap post HS2 opening. Scrapping the Golborne link for HS2 means that the future use of HS2 for trains from London to Edinburgh offers little advantage over running these services via the ECML. Scottish independence if it occurs may diminish passenger travel across what would become a hard EU border (like the Channel Tunnel). There may therefore not be increased passenger traffic along the WCML between Preston and Carlisle when HS2 opens as far as Crewe.

 

[yorksrob]

The existence of this gypsum works is probably the key reason for retaining the S&C line as a through route for now, as there is no good alternative way to access these works other than by rail via the S&C line. However, as elsewhere, lines whose justification depends primarily or solely on freight traffic for a single commodity loaded at a single point are vulnerable to closure if (or more usually when) that traffic ceases. Through coal and other mineral traffic over the S&C line from Scotland has already disappeared.


I question the expectation of increased pressure on the route over Shap post HS2 opening. Scrapping the Golborne link for HS2 means that the future use of HS2 for trains from London to Edinburgh offers little advantage over running these services via the ECML. Scottish independence if it occurs may diminish passenger travel across what would become a hard EU border (like the Channel Tunnel). There may therefore not be increased passenger traffic along the WCML between Preston and Carlisle when HS2 opens as far as Crewe.

This is all pie in the sky because neither route is primarily justified for freight.

 

[adrock1976]

The existence of this gypsum works is probably the key reason for retaining the S&C line as a through route for now, as there is no good alternative way to access these works other than by rail via the S&C line. However, as elsewhere, lines whose justification depends primarily or solely on freight traffic for a single commodity loaded at a single point are vulnerable to closure if (or more usually when) that traffic ceases. Through coal and other mineral traffic over the S&C line from Scotland has already disappeared.


I question the expectation of increased pressure on the route over Shap post HS2 opening. Scrapping the Golborne link for HS2 means that the future use of HS2 for trains from London to Edinburgh offers little advantage over running these services via the ECML. Scottish independence if it occurs may diminish passenger travel across what would become a hard EU border (like the Channel Tunnel). There may therefore not be increased passenger traffic along the WCML between Preston and Carlisle when HS2 opens as far as Crewe.

The S&C is the shortest route from Leeds/West Yorks/Sheffield/East Midlands Region to Carlisle, South West Scotland, and Glasgow/West of Scotland.

The shortest route is always valid for travelling between any two points.

 

[daodao]

This is all pie in the sky because neither route is primarily justified for freight.

The substantial freight traffic was the main reason the S&C line was not closed in the 1980s. There were only 2 daily passenger trains (none on Sundays) at that time; all the minor stations had been closed by May 1970 and were not re-opened until 1986. [Correction re Sunday service based on 1982 timetable available at https://timetableworld.com/ttw-viewer.php?token=132730db-8ad2-4152-9459-9d410b64c1ea ]

 

[yorksrob]

The substantial freight traffic was the main reason the S&C line was not closed in the 1980s. There were only 2 daily passenger trains (1 on Sundays) at that time; all the minor stations had been closed by May 1970 and were not re-opened until 1986.

But this isn't the 1980's.

The passenger service is ticking along nicely.

 

[70014IronDuke]

The S&C is the shortest route from Leeds/West Yorks/Sheffield/East Midlands Region to Carlisle, South West Scotland, and Glasgow/West of Scotland.

The shortest route is always valid for travelling between any two points.

Except when it is closed ...... which it very nearly did in c 1982.

Just because it's the shortest route 'don't mean a thing' if the axe is allowed to fall.

 

[The Planner]

The existence of this gypsum works is probably the key reason for retaining the S&C line as a through route for now, as there is no good alternative way to access these works other than by rail via the S&C line. However, as elsewhere, lines whose justification depends primarily or solely on freight traffic for a single commodity loaded at a single point are vulnerable to closure if (or more usually when) that traffic ceases. Through coal and other mineral traffic over the S&C line from Scotland has already disappeared.


I question the expectation of increased pressure on the route over Shap post HS2 opening. Scrapping the Golborne link for HS2 means that the future use of HS2 for trains from London to Edinburgh offers little advantage over running these services via the ECML. Scottish independence if it occurs may diminish passenger travel across what would become a hard EU border (like the Channel Tunnel). There may therefore not be increased passenger traffic along the WCML between Preston and Carlisle when HS2 opens as far as Crewe.

So no increase in Intermodal freight either? which cannot use the S&C.

 

[Meerkat]

The substantial freight traffic was the main reason the S&C line was not closed in the 1980s. There were only 2 daily passenger trains (1 on Sundays) at that time; all the minor stations had been closed by May 1970 and were not re-opened until 1986.

So the local area survived being almost cut off back then?

 

[HSTEd]

So no increase in Intermodal freight either? which cannot use the S&C.

Given how much of a money pit for the railway such traffic is, and how much the Government wants to tighten the belt - I wouldn't expect any great increase in intermodal operations.

And pressure on Shap could far more easily, from the railway's perspective, be eased by requiring high performance traction on freight trains attempting the climb.

 

[The Planner]

Given how much of a money pit for the railway such traffic is, and how much the Government wants to tighten the belt - I wouldn't expect any great increase in intermodal operations.

And pressure on Shap could far more easily, from the railway's perspective, be eased by requiring high performance traction on freight trains attempting the climb.

Consdering freight is effecfively open access I am not convinced what the Government can do about it, regardless of your known hatred of freight! If there is space then they bid into it, unless they decide to throw the network code in the bin.

 

[HSTEd]

Consdering freight is effecfively open access I am not convinced what the Government can do about it, regardless of your known hatred of freight! If there is space then they bid into it, unless they decide to throw the network code in the bin.

Well they could cut the Network Grant to zero and force Network Rail to become commercially self sustaining.

In addition, if the freight operators are as marginally economic as they appear I remain skeptical they will be able to overcome an increasingly competitive road freight sector (with almost inevitable electrification) by the end of this decade

 

[YorksLad12]

Is the plan to install lifts and a footbridge at Horton-in-Ribblesdale going ahead? There are far busier Northern stations that could benefit from such infrastructure; the fact that there was a plan suggests to me that the station (and by extension, the route itself) is used well enough to warrant the work.

 

[Greybeard33]

Well they could cut the Network Grant to zero and force Network Rail to become commercially self sustaining.

In addition, if the freight operators are as marginally economic as they appear I remain skeptical they will be able to overcome an increasingly competitive road freight sector (with almost inevitable electrification) by the end of this decade

Equally the Government could increase the road tax on HGVs to a level commensurate with the cost of the damage they cause to the public highways, so giving rail freight a level playing field.

But of course they won't do that either.

 

[Meerkat]

Is the plan to install lifts and a footbridge at Horton-in-Ribblesdale going ahead? There are far busier Northern stations that could benefit from such infrastructure; the fact that there was a plan suggests to me that the station (and by extension, the route itself) is used well enough to warrant the work.

Wasn’t it due to the stone trains sitting across the barrow crossing for long periods? That and the crossing being on the popular Three Peaks route (been there, done that, walked across the railway there)

 

[Ken H]

Is the plan to install lifts and a footbridge at Horton-in-Ribblesdale going ahead? There are far busier Northern stations that could benefit from such infrastructure; the fact that there was a plan suggests to me that the station (and by extension, the route itself) is used well enough to warrant the work.

No. The barrow crossing at the south end of the station is on the 3 peaks walk. Which can be very busy on summer weekends. Groups of walkers in a crocodile all stream across the ctossing assuming the person in front checked the line is clear. And the general chatter makes listening hard. There have been some near misses, I believe. Lifts? Why not allow the disabled to use the crossing with a Radar key?
But would some red/green warning lights and a noise not be cheaper?

 

[The Planner]

Well they could cut the Network Grant to zero and force Network Rail to become commercially self sustaining.

In addition, if the freight operators are as marginally economic as they appear I remain skeptical they will be able to overcome an increasingly competitive road freight sector (with almost inevitable electrification) by the end of this decade

Then we would really be into Serpell country.

 

[chorleyjeff]

Equally the Government could increase the road tax on HGVs to a level commensurate with the cost of the damage they cause to the public highways, so giving rail freight a level playing field.

But of course they won't do that either.

Sounds like the tail wagging the dog. But my unrealistic instinct is to expect "customers" to pay for the cost of services they use.

 

[Peterthegreat]

Sounds like the tail wagging the dog. But my unrealistic instinct is to expect "customers" to pay for the cost of services they use.

Does that also apply if you ant to use the health service or need the police or fire service?

 

[InkyScrolls]

The majority of through traffic on the Bentham Line is on Fridays and Sundays, taking students from Lancaster to Leeds and vice versa. Other than that, plus daytrippers on Saturday, the line is pretty quiet - even at peak times. If the service were curtailed to between Skipton and Carnforth outside these busier times, with Wennington and Clapham receiving only a parliamentary service, it would be possible to run a two-hourly service using just one unit - just about!

 

[yorksrob]

The majority of through traffic on the Bentham Line is on Fridays and Sundays, taking students from Lancaster to Leeds and vice versa. Other than that, plus daytrippers on Saturday, the line is pretty quiet - even at peak times. If the service were curtailed to between Skipton and Carnforth outside these busier times, with Wennington and Clapham receiving only a parliamentary service, it would be possible to run a two-hourly service using just one unit - just about!

If they were that desperate for units, Northern shouldn't have got rid of their 153's.

I don't think Bentham line passengers should be inconvenienced to cover Northern's/the Government's poor rolling stock decisions.

 

[InkyScrolls]

It does seem rank insanity to have withdrawn perfectly serviceable units.

 

[D6130]

It does seem rank insanity to have withdrawn perfectly serviceable units.

'Rank insanity' could easily be the watchword of this government....and especially the Daftpartment for Transport!

 

[YorksLad12]

It does seem rank insanity to have withdrawn perfectly serviceable units.

Not a sentence I would ever have thought of when describing the class 153s Even when two were stuck together to make a pseudo-155 again, they weren't the greatest experience. And knowing the way things work, you can bet that the two smaller cabs would be on the outside for the poor drivers, not on the inside and out of the way.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Not a sentence I would ever have thought of when describing the class 153s Even when two were stuck together to make a pseudo-155 again, they weren't the greatest experience. And knowing the way things work, you can bet that the two smaller cabs would be on the outside for the poor drivers, not on the inside and out of the way.

I've mentioned this a couple of times, but the small cab isn't always unpopular with drivers, I've certainly spoken to some who think it's better than the big one as it's better laid out.

 

[D6130]

I've mentioned this a couple of times, but the small cab isn't always unpopular with drivers, I've certainly spoken to some who think it's better than the big one as it's better laid out.

Agreed....and there's marginally more leg room under the (tiny) desk. The biggest problem with the No. 1 end (the larger of the two) is that there is an isolating cock cupboard where the driver's knees should be. In the 156s - and subsequent designs - this was very sensibly moved to the secondman's/conductor's side. Unfortunately, however, the No. 2 end cab is extremely noisy, thanks to the proximity of the exhaust pipe....and sometimes rather smelly, due to the proximity of the toilet.

 

[YorksLad12]

Bringing it back on topic (slightly): would the line benefit/have benefitted if they had been retained and coupled up? It feels to me as if we still don't really know what we want the route to do/where to serve/who to carry.

 

[yorksrob]

Bringing it back on topic (slightly): would the line benefit/have benefitted if they had been retained and coupled up? It feels to me as if we still don't really know what we want the route to do/where to serve/who to carry.

Not over what we have now (decent 158 services).

Better them than cuts though.

 

[Grumpy]

Not over what we have now (decent 158 services).

Better them than cuts though.

Indeed. The improvement in journey comfort as a result of junking the Pacers and providing 158s is amazing.

 

[InkyScrolls]

Especially given the rough, unwelded and poorly maintained track.

 

[70014IronDuke]

I see the SuO through Nottingham - Carlisle train has been cut back to start at Sheffield.

I thought at first it was a temporary move (for engineering work or some such), but it seems permanent. Seems a shame. I guess it came in with the December TT?

The return working goes through to Nottingham, but is an all shacks on the S&C. I suppose it's useful for the odd Armathwaite to Barnsley or Garsdale to Chesterfield passenger, but must be a drag for more important flows from Carlisle to Sheffield or Nottingham.