Project Oval: TfL win DfT contract to expand contactless system to 233 rail stations by May 2024, Railcards coming to contactless payment cards

[pbin]

Huh? No. InterCity services (delivered by NS) are not surcharged - you pay the same if you get on a Sprinter or an InterCity. One just takes longer.

There are different operators in some areas (open access, or concession) and for those you do need to check out with NS and then in with the other operator on the platform readers you describe.

Oh, I meant Intercity Direct services between Rotterdam and Schiphol. Thought it was more widespread.

 

[crablab]

Oh, I meant Intercity Direct services between Rotterdam and Schiphol. Thought it was more widespread

That's the service that goes all the way to Brussels Zuid on the HSL

Anyway, back on topic...

 

[PeterC]

I think we will have to wait and see what is implemented but we shouldn't be under any illusion that there won't be losers as well as winners from the implementation of this if revenue neutrality (or a slight positive in the DfT's favour) is to be achieved.

People are always calling for simplicity and properly structured fares with fewer anomalies. This does represent an opportunity to do that.

Agreed, people do seem to assume that the end result will be first generation Oyster ported onto the back office.

Certainly railcard processing will have to be developed from scratch which should be able to accommodate differing hours of validity. Companions and two together cards are another matter.

In the longer term having different fares or fare caps at least at weekends shouldn't be insurmountable.

 

[CyrusWuff]

Certainly railcard processing will have to be developed from scratch which should be able to accommodate differing hours of validity. Companions and two together cards are another matter.

The former is more likely to happen (though requires creating slightly different logic for each Railcard) than the latter I would have thought, given there's no easy way to determine who's travelling as part of a group.

 

[JaJaWa]

The expansion to GWR branches has already been delivered as part of this scheme, I’m not sure how fares were changed there but you can probably look to them as an example.

I would be very surprised if lots of the earlier batches of extra stations (it only makes sense to go live with reasonably sized group in each area) weren't GTR ones as they need far less work than average as Key has been working for years already. e.g. I'd expect the stations down the BML to Brighton (which are in scope as the map on first page is a very old one and out of date) to be in the first batch.

Not sure those are any more likely as they removed the previous (almost brand new) readers and installed TfL ones when they expanded contactless to Luton Airport Parkway etc.

 

[JonathanH]

The expansion to GWR branches has already been delivered as part of this scheme, I’m not sure how fares were changed there but you can probably look to them as an example.

While they are an example of how fares are set, the previous structure hasn't been withdrawn yet.

The big question is what happens to the existing structure when the programme is extended further.

 

[hwl]

I'm surprised Farnborough Main isn't listed as a PAYG station, there are a large number of passengers that travel to/from here, particularly for special events at Farnborough Airshow and International Exhibition. Even more so when it comes to Out of Station Interchanges with Farnborough North.

Farnborough Main is going to be the outer most PAYG station on the SWML* for Project Oval but you'll have to wait for roll out first. (The 2019 map in the first post was out of date a very long time ago, the list of stations grew some what due to some common sense, similar expansions to Alton, Milton Keynes, Bedford, Marston Vale line, Cambridge (both ways) and Brighton were added pre tender process starting )
* With Farnborough North as a recognised OSI.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 10 Dec 2022 ==

The expansion to GWR branches has already been delivered as part of this scheme, I’m not sure how fares were changed there but you can probably look to them as an example.


Not sure those are any more likely as they removed the previous (almost brand new) readers and installed TfL ones when they expanded contactless to Luton Airport Parkway etc.

The readers will need to be swapped or modified but all the cabling and comms equipment is already in place.

 

[higthomas]

Farnborough Main is going to be the outer most PAYG station on the SWML* for Project Oval but you'll have to wait for roll out first. (The 2019 map in the first post was out of date a very long time ago, the list of stations grew some what due to some common sense, similar expansions to Alton, Milton Keynes, Bedford, Marston Vale line, Cambridge (both ways) and Brighton were added pre tender process starting )
* With Farnborough North as a recognised OSI.

How do you know that? Is the actual list available anywhere/could you post it here?

Cambridge is the station I'd really like to be included, so interested in that possibility.

 

[hwl]

How do you know that?

Is the actual list available anywhere/could you post it here?

Cambridge is the station I'd really like to be included, so interested in that possibility.

Cambridge is more than a possibility, it is happening. Hitchin is the northern most station on the ECML included (unsurprisingly given the extension to Cambridge...)

 

[Capvermell]

This whole expensive project might perhaps not be necessary if the area covered by for instance Southern's Key Go product was not so inexplicably random. For instance last night after arriving at Putney after tapping in with my Southern Key Go card at Ockley I found barriers would not open as Putney is apparently not supported by Key Go. Yet I assumed that Putney as a suburban SouthWestern station close to Central London (but also of course providing TFL Underground services and ticketing from the same readers operating the same barriers) would be covered because when travelling to Wimbledon (another SouthWestern station) from Ockley I checked in advance and found Key Go was supported. Now I am left with Key Go trying to charge me £13 with the Network Card associated with it for a phantom journey it mysteriously thinks I made to Brighton and back rather than the £10 return (no railcard discount as its under the £13 Network Card minimum ) that is the actual fare from Ockley to Putney.

On checking the original map of stations for Project Oval published here Dorking and Holmwood are included (although I'm not clear of the difference between the blue and pink shaded areas on the map) but Ockley, Warnham and Horsham are not included yet all stations to Gatwick Airport (Gatwick Airport is level with Ockley geographically) are covered by whatever the superior functionality of the blue shaded area for Project Oval is.

I can't see the point of Project Oval being implemented for such a random and partial list of stations in the South East used by commuters to London and it seems to be exactly the same mess up as with Southern's The Key card not working west of Warblington (because you then enter SouthWestern Railway operated station land) but working at Wimbledon (a South Western Railway station) because Thameslink trains stop at that station.

All in all what is the point of Project Oval when its the same random, partial and incomplete implementation of contactless card payment as with Southern's Key Go product. Surely there is only any point in Project Oval if it covers all stations in the country that have ITSO card reader operated barriers.........

 

[Hadders]

Project Oval enables contactless, and interfaces with the existing TfL system. That's the game changer, as long as railcards can get sorted.

 

[Capvermell]

Project Oval enables contactless, and interfaces with the existing TfL system. That's the game changer, as long as railcards can get sorted.

Yes I agree that's what it does but its rollout in the South East still doesn't seem to be nearly wide enough to cover lots of regular daily commutes to London. Why not cover the whole of the South East comprehensively if you want to make it the default way for most customers to pay.

By Contrast Southern Key Go seems to cover almost all of their own stations no matter how small and halt like but with extremely poor interoperability with neighbouring rail operators and in particular very poor with SouthWestern..........

 

[Starmill]

Project Oval enables contactless, and interfaces with the existing TfL system. That's the game changer, as long as railcards can get sorted.

While obviously that's desirable in principle, KeyGo and Tap2Go will have to be maintained alongside any expansion of Contactless because they do things which Oval clearly won't be able to. For example KeyGo is integrated with Brighton & Hove and Metrobus services, they're not going to be accepting TfL's payment processor in addition to their own. Same for Island Line.

Nobody has yet explained how TOCs and DfT will be assured on any fraud risk from not touching out either, this is handled on Tap2Go for example by holding the customer's name and address on file. In addition it is yet to be explained how the caps within the zones or current Contactless area will flex if at all, for its expansion. Finally there's an outstanding question over whether contactless will be accepted by LNER, who are behind the scenes furious at what they perceive as being bounced into it. It's also clear some TOCs wanted the functionality to be able to adjust fares through onboard taps, which doesn't exist and isn't being developed at the moment by TfL. In a way that one is probably a good thing but it's representative of the problem - what you're getting is the existing system but expanded, not something bespoke. There is more than only railcards to sort.

 

[Capvermell]

While obviously that's desirable in principle, KeyGo and Tap2Go will have to be maintained alongside any expansion of Contactless because they do things which Oval clearly won't be able to. For example KeyGo is integrated with Brighton & Hove and Metrobus services, they're not going to be accepting TfL's payment processor in addition to their own. Same for Island Line.

Also what about Travelcards from Project Oval stations outside London to Travelcard Zones 1 to 6?

Potentially if backed up by a customer account like TfL Contactless then it would be possible to set an option that if you tap in at a station outside London but then end up tapping out at a TfL underground station then Project Oval can automatically sell you a Travelcard for the relevant Zones but if not then buying a separate contactless rail ticket to London and then a separate TfL Travelcard is going to be a lot more expensive than current paper ticket Travelcard or The Key Travelcard ticket arrangements.

But overall I really can't see the point of Project Oval if we end up in the same current bad situation as Southern Key Go where it doesn't work if exiting the network beyond the Project Oval boundary stations. By contrast paper tickets or pre bought smart tickets downloaded on to your phone can work everywhere.

 

[Facing Back]

While obviously that's desirable in principle, KeyGo and Tap2Go will have to be maintained alongside any expansion of Contactless because they do things which Oval clearly won't be able to. For example KeyGo is integrated with Brighton & Hove and Metrobus services, they're not going to be accepting TfL's payment processor in addition to their own. Same for Island Line.

Nobody has yet explained how TOCs and DfT will be assured on any fraud risk from not touching out either, this is handled on Tap2Go for example by holding the customer's name and address on file. In addition it is yet to be explained how the caps within the zones or current Contactless area will flex if at all, for its expansion. Finally there's an outstanding question over whether contactless will be accepted by LNER, who are behind the scenes furious at what they perceive as being bounced into it. It's also clear some TOCs wanted the functionality to be able to adjust fares through onboard taps, which doesn't exist and isn't being developed at the moment by TfL. In a way that one is probably a good thing but it's representative of the problem - what you're getting is the existing system but expanded, not something bespoke. There is more than only railcards to sort.

Thank you for that. I am new to this thread and was curious what the fuss is about and now I know a bit more.

Can I ask how oyster card manage the fraud risk? I had heard something about the £5 you paid for the card being the unofficial credit line?

And why were LNER furious?

 

[Starmill]

Also what about Travelcards from Project Oval stations outside London to Travelcard Zones 1 to 6?

Potentially if backed up by a customer account like TfL Contactless then it would be possible to set an option that if you tap in at a station outside London but then end up tapping out at a TfL underground station then Project Oval can automatically sell you a Travelcard for the relevant Zones but if not then buying a separate contactless rail ticket to London and then a separate TfL Travelcard is going to be a lot more expensive than current paper ticket Travelcard or The Key Travelcard ticket arrangements.

But overall I really can't see the point of Project Oval if we end up in the same current bad situation as Southern Key Go where it doesn't work if exiting the network beyond the Project Oval boundary stations. By contrast paper tickets or pre bought smart tickets downloaded on to your phone can work everywhere.

I wouldn't worry about this too much, because it's more likely that the Travelcard fare will just be abolished. It could be retained for ITSO alongside the Contactless implementation though if they're still generally available. Users of outboundary travelcards, especially Off Peak or Super Off Peak varieties, are likely to be asked to pay substantially more as a result, in a similar way to how people often currently pay more to get a paper return to London and then also use Contactless on London Underground once there than they would if they used an outboundary Travelcard.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 3 Feb 2023 ==

And why were LNER furious?

It undermines their capacity planning and yield management strategy if people can use pay as you go in their services.

Can I ask how oyster card manage the fraud risk? I had heard something about the £5 you paid for the card being the unofficial credit line?

The risk of fraud with an Oyster card is very low because its credit balance is prepaid so you can only go a couple of pounds overdrawn on one at the very most. The risk of fraud with contactless currently is also very low because if your card declines it will quickly be banned from further touches, and if it isn't touched out the maximum fare will be collected from the card's account.

Oval however will face a different question as to what the maximum fare should be. A very large authorisation might seem like a solution but if they try to authorise every card at say £99 they would face two problems, one where customers complained and get politicians involved because they think they have been charged so much more than necessary, or they would end up with the card declining because it has less than that available. If you authorise only the current maximum fare on touch in then realistically you can't rely on being able to collect more than that, so people would then be able to travel for just the maximum fare thus getting a large illegitimate discount. More onboard ticket inspection using the new devices and fitment of more ticket gates or extending ticket gate hours would be some obvious ways to mitigate on these risks so something might be agreed to this end as part of the rollout.

 

[Harryeurostar]

Would oval have capping implemented? For instance this would be a good part replacement for the Southeastern rover ticket as, even if you wanted a travelcard alternative but sightly out from london, say, tonbridge, then you would have to buy an all line rover which is stupidly expensive as you cant have one for just one day. Capping would help as you could have a daily and weekly cap

 

[JonathanH]

For instance this would be a good part replacement for the Southeastern rover ticket as, even if you wanted a travelcard alternative but sightly out from london, say, tonbridge, then you would have to buy an all line rover which is stupidly expensive as you cant have one for just one day.

That is well outside the scope of Project Oval.

Would oval have capping implemented?

The current extensions of Contactless outside Zone 6 have London-centric capping analogous to, but often more expensive than, an out-boundary day travelcard.

Daily and weekly caps of this nature are the only capping.

 

[T-Karmel]

Oval however will face a different question as to what the maximum fare should be. A very large authorisation might seem like a solution but if they try to authorise every card at say £99 they would face two problems, one where customers complained and get politicians involved because they think they have been charged so much more than necessary, or they would end up with the card declining because it has less than that available. If you authorise only the current maximum fare on touch in then realistically you can't rely on being able to collect more than that, so people would then be able to travel for just the maximum fare thus getting a large illegitimate discount. More onboard ticket inspection using the new devices and fitment of more ticket gates or extending ticket gate hours would be some obvious ways to mitigate on these risks so something might be agreed to this end as part of the rollout.

Just by looking how it works now, I think large authorisation is out of the question - what is it currently, £1, or 10p that is authorised initially?
Authorising big amounts would decline journeys for passengers who can afford their intended journey of £3 but are unable to authorise big amount at the moment.

The risk of fraud with contactless currently is also very low because if your card declines it will quickly be banned from further touches, and if it isn't touched out the maximum fare will be collected from the card's account.

I wonder if instead of charging massive maximum fares wouldn't it be enough to block the card after two incomplete journeys, like TfL does now? I don't think that need of exchanging a bank card every two journeys made would attract a lot of fraudsters to travel.

 

[Starmill]

I wonder if instead of charging massive maximum fares wouldn't it be enough to block the card after two incomplete journeys, like TfL does now? I don't think that need of exchanging a bank card every two journeys made would attract a lot of fraudsters to travel.

It's a reasonably straightforward job to ban cards in this way if they decline yes, if they're simply not touched out however it would be a little problematic. What if a long delay causes you to go two minutes over the maximum journey time, and as such you get two incomplete journey charges? Banning that card would not be popular at all. Regardless it's far easier to ban a card than it is to get any details from it about who has used it in order to have them prosecuted which would have been the preferred option for some operators. I think that you're probably right that concerns about fraud are being overdone and there's also fraud risk from paper tickets which will diminish or be easier to spot as they become rarer and offset this. Hopefully attitudes will shift, although the nonsense insistence on device-locking of period and flexi seasons issued as s-tickets suggests we're not there yet.

 

[T-Karmel]

What if a long delay causes you to go two minutes over the maximum journey time, and as such you get two incomplete journey charges?

That's quite often a case on TfL network and it's enough to log in and link these two journeys into one. System often does it for you after couple of days. It also automatically completes a journey if you forget to touch out and you make the same journey often - not necessarily everyday.
It supposedly wouldn't block the card in that scenario. And it also may allow for more incomplete journeys before it gets blocked.

I don't know how easy it would be for TfL or TOC to trace customers details with unregistered cards but I guess they could at least get hold of the name on the card? But certainly it'll be easy for registered cards which I guess will be a requirement for anyone who will want to add their Railcard discount to their card.

 

[Starmill]

That's quite often a case on TfL network and it's enough to log in and link these two journeys into one. System often does it for you after couple of days. It also automatically completes a journey if you forget to touch out and you make the same journey often - not necessarily everyday.
It supposedly wouldn't block the card in that scenario. And it also may allow for more incomplete journeys before it gets blocked.

I don't know how easy it would be for TfL or TOC to trace customers details with unregistered cards but I guess they could at least get hold of the name on the card? But certainly it'll be easy for registered cards which I guess will be a requirement for anyone who will want to add their Railcard discount to their card.

There are a rather large number of possible legitimate reasons for being charged a maximum fare and then receiving a refund, from some taps being lost to all readers at a station being switched off for crowd control, among a huge number of other things. It would be very difficult to use any of these as a basis for adding a card to the banned list.

 

[MikeWh]

TfL do not ban a card after two incomplete journeys. They do ban a card after three failed revenue inspections.

The authorisation depends on different factors but is usually for 10p. It is purely to check that the card is still valid with the bank. If the bank fails to fulfil the end of day charge then the card will be blocked pending resolution.

 

[T-Karmel]

TfL do not ban a card after two incomplete journeys. They do ban a card after three failed revenue inspections.

The authorisation depends on different factors but is usually for 10p. It is purely to check that the card is still valid with the bank. If the bank fails to fulfil the end of day charge then the card will be blocked pending resolution.

Yes, you're right, I mistaken one for the other. Two inspections without touch in it is, not incomplete journeys.

And they also must be within a month of each other I think.

 

[Gerald Fiennes]

So, the acid test will be whether this is used as a way of bringing TfL's fares system to the full Oval area, ie a cover for scrapping the current one. Remember that TfL don't like Cheap Day Returns (although back in the golden years pre UTS, they used to offer themselves) or breaking journeys. They also have their own, shall we say, unique approach to child fares, particularly complicated for those in the 12 -16 range, ie. there are reductions but you have to have special card to get them so if you don't live in London in reality there aren't any. National Rail allows children half price without prior authorisation, of course.

Currently, within today's Oyster fares area, the two systems (sort of) co-exist. It creates hours of fun for me trying to explain to my brother (who lives abroad) how his family can get around on public transport at minimum cost depending on where they are going (we have choice between LUL, LO and ex-BR here) but, honestly, for normal people it is all a bit weird, isn't it? However, if we are bringing places like Stevenage and Cambridge into Oval and are then are thinking of scrapping CDRs, meaning higher day out fares in practice, and making the tourist's kids pay full price we may find a little bit of opposition out there....!

Of course, since Oval just moves the processing to the back office it could be set up to continue to offer CDRs, even those to London Terminals (which offer choice of termini stations to use, different one out than back).... but do we think DfT/TfL are really up to the challenge of doing this?

 

[JonathanH]

Remember that TfL don't like Cheap Day Returns (although back in the golden years pre UTS, they used to offer themselves) or breaking journeys.

"don't like" or just see them as edge cases in the context of loads of journeys priced in a simple point to point manner. Yes, the loss of these things leads to some stealth fare rises, but for the vast majority of users it has no impact.

Any change to a fare structure leads to winners and losers.

 

[Starmill]

"don't like" or just see them as edge cases in the context of loads of journeys priced in a simple point to point manner. Yes, the loss of these things leads to some stealth fare rises, but for the vast majority of users it has no impact.

Any change to a fare structure leads to winners and losers.

I also think for most former BR lines where there would have been what's now known as an Off Peak Day Return, two off peak Oyster singles is usually either about the same or only slightly above what the paper fare would have been anyway, though obviously anything involving Heathrow Airport, Southeastern Highspeed or Gatwick Express is a huge exception to that, and the same goes for railcard holiders other than disabled railcards in the PM peak. Obviously we cannot know for sure but it's certainly not far off. For example, Dartford to Hither Green is exactly the same using contactless as paper now, although paper does come with fewer time restrictions.

 

[Hadders]

The convenience of contactless will be a game changer but there are downsides due to the way it will be implemented. This post from 2019, following the extension of Oyster and contactless to Hertford East is an indicator of what could happen to fares:

March 2019 Oyster Extensions Confirmed

* Losers being those who currently get an off-peak day return that want to travel in the evening peak and those who travel at weekends. Oh, and those who want to break their journey. Although, if these people can continue to use paper tickets to make their journey...

www.railforums.co.uk

I don't understand why LNER aren't happy. The only station impacted is Stevenage, as I don't think Oval is planned to go as far as Peterborough.

 

[Haywain]

I don't understand why LNER aren't happy.

Nor me (and they certainly weren't 'furious' when I was involved). LNER don't set the fares and only run two trains an hour between Stevenage and Kings Cross - they will only lose out on selling dedicated LNER tickets which are a minority of sales for that journey anyway.

 

[DelW]

On checking the original map of stations for Project Oval published here Dorking and Holmwood are included (although I'm not clear of the difference between the blue and pink shaded areas on the map) but Ockley, Warnham and Horsham are not included yet all stations to Gatwick Airport (Gatwick Airport is level with Ockley geographically) are covered by whatever the superior functionality of the blue shaded area for Project Oval is.

The legend box (top left on the map) states that blue is the existing Oyster/contactless PAYG area, and pink is the proposed extended area, so presumably no difference if/after the extension has happened.