Merseyrail Saveaway day ticket, query.

[Fawkes Cat]

The key outstanding aspect is that Halton, as an integral part of Liverpool City Region, should be integrated into LCR ticketing.

While Halton is part of the Combined Authority ('Liverpool City Region'), is it part of the PTA/PTE ('Merseytravel') area?

I'm quite prepared to agree that it should be - but until and unless it is within Merseytravel then I don't think that it follows that a Merseytravel ticket should cover Halton.

 

[TheSel]

... The Merseyrail Day Saver, just 5p cheaper, doesn't offer City Lines validity. This ticket really should not exist.

I can see the argument, but surely the point is that the Merseyrail Day Saver is just that - a Day Saver (off peak), valid on Merseyrail [only]. As such, they keep 100% of the ticket price - £5.95 (minus any sales commission). A SaveAway ticket is multi-operator, so Merseyrail will only get a proportion of the ticket price - £6.00. My guess is that that proportion is somewhat less than 99.16% (£5.95 being 99.16% of £6), so from Merseyrail's perspective, a Merseyrail Day Saver most certainly SHOULD exist. It's probably classed as 'Commercial in Confidence', but it would be interesting to know what Merseyrail's 'cut' is from each SaveAway sold - which will be the same irrespective of whether the SaveAway is used on Merseyrail or not.

Why should users be forced into buying a multi-operator ticket if they only wish to avail themselves of one operator's services, which would be the case if the Merseyrail Day Saver did not exist?

 

[danm14]

While Halton is part of the Combined Authority ('Liverpool City Region'), is it part of the PTA/PTE ('Merseytravel') area?

I'm quite prepared to agree that it should be - but until and unless it is within Merseytravel then I don't think that it follows that a Merseytravel ticket should cover Halton.

Yes, it is, and Halton Borough Council make up 15% of the membership of the Merseytravel Committee.

The only people who have benefitted from the extension in terms of ticketing, though, are those aged 18 and under, who can now buy a day ticket covering all buses in Merseyside and Halton. There were no changes to train tickets for anyone, or bus tickets for adults.

The stations in Halton - Widnes, Runcorn and Runcorn East - should all be added. But to do that - because Runcorn East is an enclave of the Liverpool City Region on the railway - would necessitate also adding validity in at least one, and realistically both of the following groups of stations, which might be problematic:

• Stanlow & Thornton, Ince & Elton, Helsby and Frodsham
• Warrington Bank Quay (and, if not strictly 100% necessary, for common sense reasons also Warrington Central, Warrington West and Sankey for Penketh)

 

[8A Rail]

........................... Are you perhaps thinking of the way it used to be the case that GMPTE tickets met the Merseytravel boundary at Rainford, with GMPTE validity extending into Lancashire and a bit of Merseyside, which was the case until the mid 1990s (I once got caught out by it as I had an old map, but as it was back in more reasonable days rather than an MG11 or PF I was let off on the basis of "don't do it again" when I showed the map)?

I was not thinking anything, just making an observation.

That doesn't work as Upton and Heswall both have TfW signage but both perfectly valid. And perhaps Meols Cop? Also completely valid.

What is true is that Saveaway validity ignores the fact that the train from Kirkby to Rainford passes in and out of modern day Lancashire as does the line to Newton-le-Willows.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 1 Feb 2023 ==


Hooton was also only about 200 yards into modern day Cheshire but there was a boundary change around 2000 where Cheshire snaffled the land right up to the M53 motorway, moving the boundary further north

I never include Upton and Heswall in my thoughts, although you are correct. Never have any reason to use that line. I can confirm that Meals Cop is Northern signage but I wonder how many people who have Merseytravel tickets actually use Southport to Meols Cop and return? Can't be many?

Newton le Willows is in the modern day Merseyside for those who live there = part of the Metropolitan Borough of St Helens, Merseyside, England. Part of the L&M line between Bold and Earlestown, namely Collins Green is in the modern day Cheshire but no stations on that section of line so no issues.

 

[Djgr]

I can see the argument, but surely the point is that the Merseyrail Day Saver is just that - a Day Saver (off peak), valid on Merseyrail [only]. As such, they keep 100% of the ticket price - £5.95 (minus any sales commission). A SaveAway ticket is multi-operator, so Merseyrail will only get a proportion of the ticket price - £6.00. My guess is that that proportion is somewhat less than 99.16% (£5.95 being 99.16% of £6), so from Merseyrail's perspective, a Merseyrail Day Saver most certainly SHOULD exist. It's probably classed as 'Commercial in Confidence', but it would be interesting to know what Merseyrail's 'cut' is from each SaveAway sold - which will be the same irrespective of whether the SaveAway is used on Merseyrail or not.

Why should users be forced into buying a multi-operator ticket if they only wish to avail themselves of one operator's services, which would be the case if the Merseyrail Day Saver did not exist?

The main issue is that too many people are missold the Day Saver, saving 5p and then discovering to their cost that the ticket has significantly worse validity.

Single operator tickets are one key reason why many people are put off using public transport.

 

[JBuchananGB]

I can confirm that Meols Cop is Northern signage but I wonder how many people who have Merseytravel tickets actually use Southport to Meols Cop and return? Can't be many?

Maybe not for that short hop, but I have met and travelled with some who will ask the Southport ticket office to sell them a ticket from Meols Cop to destination of choice along the line, such as Parbold, Wigan etc. Not sure how huge the saving is though. As a Lancashire resident I am not eligible for Merseytravel passes! I do not buy Saveaways or Daysavers. My ENCTS bus pass relieves me of the need for bus travel validity offered by Saveaway, and there are cost effective ways to use a Senior Railcard to avoid using DaySavers on most journeys.

 

[Starmill]

Given Merseytravel have funded this service to get it up and running

I think that in general its operating costs are being funded by the Welsh Government.

 

[Djgr]

While Halton is part of the Combined Authority ('Liverpool City Region'), is it part of the PTA/PTE ('Merseytravel') area?

I'm quite prepared to agree that it should be - but until and unless it is within Merseytravel then I don't think that it follows that a Merseytravel ticket should cover Halton.

A look at the Liverpool City Region website certain suggests that it should be.

My guess is that, in the context of Broken Britain, making it happen has been parked as a problem "too difficult to solve".

 

[Fawkes Cat]

A look at the Liverpool City Region website certain suggests that it should be.

My guess is that, in the context of Broken Britain, making it happen has been parked as a problem "too difficult to solve".

From posts above, it looks as if Halton is indeed in Merseytravel, and so logically should be within the Saveaway as well.

So my next guess is: assuming that LCR/Merseytravel want to extend the Saveaway, is the problem that Avanti run Liverpool - Runcorn trains and so would want some of the money (presumably more than Merseytravel would be willing to give) from the Saveaway? I suppose it would be possible to exclude Avanti trains from the Saveaway, but that way on-train arguments lie.

 

[Vespa]

Absolute clarity is needed otherwise where there is confusion, innocent people gets unfairly PF or prosecuted.

 

[lyndhurst25]

Why shouldn’t Avanti accept an enhanced Saveaway between Liverpool and Runcorn? The West Midlands Daytripper is valid on their services, as is the Greater Manchester Rail Ranger. Sure they may want money for accepting it, but extending Saveaway to cover Halton will mean that more tickets are sold and the price of the tickets may go up a little to reflect the increased validity.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

Why shouldn’t Avanti accept an enhanced Saveaway between Liverpool and Runcorn? The West Midlands Daytripper is valid on their services, as is the Greater Manchester Rail Ranger. Sure they may want money for accepting it, but extending Saveaway to cover Halton will mean that more tickets are sold and the price of the tickets may go up a little to reflect the increased validity.

It could depend on how much money Avanti want.

 

[Djgr]

It could depend on how much money Avanti want.

I guess that as they are both, to all intents and purposes, public bodies we are talking wooden dollars here.

 

[Haywain]

I guess that as they are both, to all intents and purposes, public bodies we are talking wooden dollars here.

If it results in a price increase for greater validity (area, not just operators) then it certainly won't be 'wooden dollars'.

 

[Starmill]

It would make sense to add Runcorn (and by extension any future Ditton station) and Widnes to the ticket area, plus all local buses in Halton, in exchange for a rise of no more than around 10% over whatever the usual rise is on the all area ticket. That would still leave poor Runcorn East stuck out on its loansome.

This assumes Merseytravel actually collects all of the revenue and disburses the funds using an agreed allocation. Lots of these tickets aren't disbursed at all, and whoever sells the tickets just keeps what they sell and takes the hit if they don't sell as many as they accept.

 

[Llandudno]

It would make sense to add Runcorn (and by extension any future Ditton station) and Widnes to the ticket area, plus all local buses in Halton, in exchange for a rise of no more than around 10% over whatever the usual rise is on the all area ticket. That would still leave poor Runcorn East stuck out on its loansome.

This assumes Merseytravel actually collects all of the revenue and disburses the funds using an agreed allocation. Lots of these tickets aren't disbursed at all, and whoever sells the tickets just keeps what they sell and takes the hit if they don't sell as many as they accept.

But why should anyone travelling between Southport and Liverpool pay 10% more to allow Runcorn etc into the Saveaway scheme?

Perhaps a Saveaway Plus card would be better for say an extra £1 or so which includes all of Halton and permits travel on TfW between Chester and Liverpool and Chester and Newton le Willows?

 

[Starmill]

But why should anyone travelling between Southport and Liverpool pay 10% more to allow Runcorn etc into the Saveaway scheme?

Perhaps a Saveaway Plus card would be better for say an extra £1 or so which includes all of Halton and permits travel on TfW between Chester and Liverpool and Chester and Newton le Willows?

They would only be paying more if they're using the all area. And because that's just the price people pay in this country for integration. It would be far better to do this through the tax system, especially if done through local payroll taxes, so that non-users of public transport who still work are also paying for the public transport. However we don't currently permit anything that sensible in England.

 

[Djgr]

But why should anyone travelling between Southport and Liverpool pay 10% more to allow Runcorn etc into the Saveaway scheme?

Perhaps a Saveaway Plus card would be better for say an extra £1 or so which includes all of Halton and permits travel on TfW between Chester and Liverpool and Chester and Newton le Willows?

Because they could also travel to Runcorn and Widnes.

As stated above this is essentially a ticket for people who live in Liverpool City Region to travel within Liverpool City Region.

Widnes and Runcorn are in Liverpool City Region. Helsby and Frodsham and Warrington are not.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Why should users be forced into buying a multi-operator ticket if they only wish to avail themselves of one operator's services, which would be the case if the Merseyrail Day Saver did not exist?

Because that is how a fully integrated urban transport system, such as those found in Germany, works. You don't think of modes or operators, you think of the complete system working as one.

The Saveaway costs an extra five pence. I buy it anyway, you never know when the enhanced validity will come in handy, e.g. to use a regular bus in disruption. And I don't want to encourage Merseyrail doing this.

 

[danm14]

Perhaps a Saveaway Plus card would be better for say an extra £1 or so which includes all of Halton and permits travel on TfW between Chester and Liverpool and Chester and Newton le Willows?

Perhaps a compromise would be including Liverpool South Parkway to Runcorn and Hough Green to Widnes at the current cost (thus including Halton without increasing costs for residents of other boroughs), subsidised by offering a more expensive Saveaway Plus (perhaps £3-4 extra) that also adds validity from Chester and Ellesmere Port to Runcorn and Runcorn East; Runcorn East to Newton-le-Willows; and Widnes to Warrington Central.

Presumably there are going to have to be significant changes to Merseytravel ticketing in the future anyway if the Metro Mayor's aspiration to expand the Merseyrail network well outside the Liverpool City Region (i.e. Preston, Wigan, Warrington, Wrexham, etc.) goes ahead.

 

[Djgr]

Because that is how a fully integrated urban transport system, such as those found in Germany, works. You don't think of modes or operators, you think of the complete system working as one.

The Saveaway costs an extra five pence. I buy it anyway, you never know when the enhanced validity will come in handy, e.g. to use a regular bus in disruption. And I don't want to encourage Merseyrail doing this.

One of the reasons why public transport is so disastrous outside London is lack of integration which includes ticketing. Single mode and/or operator tickets are not the future.

And of course Saveaway includes the ferry!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 6 Feb 2023 ==

Perhaps a compromise would be including Liverpool South Parkway to Runcorn and Hough Green to Widnes at the current cost (thus including Halton without increasing costs for residents of other boroughs), subsidised by offering a more expensive Saveaway Plus (perhaps £3-4 extra) that also adds validity from Chester and Ellesmere Port to Runcorn and Runcorn East; Runcorn East to Newton-le-Willows; and Widnes to Warrington Central.

Presumably there are going to have to be significant changes to Merseytravel ticketing in the future anyway if the Metro Mayor's aspiration to expand the Merseyrail network well outside the Liverpool City Region (i.e. Preston, Wigan, Warrington, Wrexham, etc.) goes ahead.

To be honest the real cost of doing the right thing and including Runcorn and Widnes (and buses in Halton) would be minimal.

There is a lot to be said for keeping LCR products to the LCR. There are other Ranger/Rover type tickets available if you want a wider coverage.

 

[Bletchleyite]

There is a lot to be said for keeping LCR products to the LCR. There are other Ranger/Rover type tickets available if you want a wider coverage.

Including the missing bits of the Northern and Wirral Lines as the tickets now do does make sense and decomplicates quite a lot, so I don't think retrenching back to ending at Hooton and Maghull North makes sense.

 

[Djgr]

Including the missing bits of the Northern and Wirral Lines as the tickets now do does make sense and decomplicates quite a lot, so I don't think retrenching back to ending at Hooton and Maghull North makes sense.

To be pedantic it would cut back to Eastham Rake!

 

[Bletchleyite]

To be pedantic it would cut back to Eastham Rake!

True - the extensions to Hooton and Hough Green were there since day one I think? To the extent that I always thought they were in Merseyside! Looking at a map the boundary basically follows the M56. Interestingly the signage at those two stations always carried the Merseytravel M logo, which stations outside the area (north of Maghull and south of Hooton) didn't, on the mainline it was the blue Regional Railways colours, while on the Northern Line to Ormskirk the signage just omitted the M logo but retained the grey bar with the word "Merseyrail" on it at the bottom.

 

[zero]

Will a Saveaway bought at Chester be issued as a CCST? Trying to avoid getting a smartcard which I am not likely to use more than twice.

Merseytravel website says Saveaways can only be bought for the present day or next day, but is that enforceable on tickets sold as CCST?

 

[KT550]

Will a Saveaway bought at Chester be issued as a CCST? Trying to avoid getting a smartcard which I am not likely to use more than twice.

Merseytravel website says Saveaways can only be bought for the present day or next day, but is that enforceable on tickets sold as CCST?

I bought one at the Chester ticket office back in December 2021 (on day of travel). It was issued on normal CCST then.

 

[Lloyds siding]

We tried this on a bus once back in the paper Saveaway days and the driver was having non of it despite showing him the wording on the back. I can't remember the route but I believe it went out of Merseyside into Lancashire CC then back into Merseyside.

Another one we tried years ago was catching a train from Chester with a Saveaway which departed just before 0630am. The wording on the back said not valid for journeys scheduled to depart between 0630 and 0929 or something like that. So it would be peak time on arrival into Liverpool, but the scheduled departure time was before 0630 so valid. Staff questioned it at the barriers but with a quick explanation and they were happy.

There used to be a bus from Liverpool to Southport that went via Lydiate, Halsall and Scarisbrick in Lancashire. You could use the Saveaway to journey between any places in Merseyside, but could not board or get off in Lancashire, the bus crews I came across were well aware of the rules.

 

[urbophile]

There probably weren't any services that went out of the boundary then back in back then, particularly as validity didn't go to Chester or Ormskirk until about 10 years ago, only to Maghull and Hooton.

Saveaway tickets have always been valid between Kirkby and Rainford despite the line travelling through West Lancashire. (No station there though).

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 9 Mar 2023 ==

I can see the argument, but surely the point is that the Merseyrail Day Saver is just that - a Day Saver (off peak), valid on Merseyrail [only]. As such, they keep 100% of the ticket price - £5.95 (minus any sales commission). A SaveAway ticket is multi-operator, so Merseyrail will only get a proportion of the ticket price - £6.00. My guess is that that proportion is somewhat less than 99.16% (£5.95 being 99.16% of £6), so from Merseyrail's perspective, a Merseyrail Day Saver most certainly SHOULD exist. It's probably classed as 'Commercial in Confidence', but it would be interesting to know what Merseyrail's 'cut' is from each SaveAway sold - which will be the same irrespective of whether the SaveAway is used on Merseyrail or not.

Why should users be forced into buying a multi-operator ticket if they only wish to avail themselves of one operator's services, which would be the case if the Merseyrail Day Saver did not exist?

Because separate operators should not exist, except maybe in the same way as bus operators in London: the transport authority (TfL, or Merseytravel) should set the fares and control the conditions.

 

[Bungle965]

I bought one at the Chester ticket office back in December 2021 (on day of travel). It was issued on normal CCST then.

Still will be CCST, TfW booking offices do not use PRT.

 

[185143]

But why should anyone travelling between Southport and Liverpool pay 10% more to allow Runcorn etc into the Saveaway scheme?

Perhaps a Saveaway Plus card would be better for say an extra £1 or so which includes all of Halton and permits travel on TfW between Chester and Liverpool and Chester and Newton le Willows?

Anyone just travelling between Southport and Liverpool can stick with the Merseyrail Day Saver.

Though I agree with @Bletchleyite that such a ticket should not exist, or if it is to exist, then to be priced substantially less than the Saveaway to reflect it's substantially reduced validity.

No one would propose a "London Underground Only" travelcard for 5p less than the cost of the current products!