GwR potential rolling stock provision once HSTs are stood down

[william.martin]

I reckon that GWR have got a trick up there sleeve for this one:
•Get 769's in service ASAP to make more sprinters available
•Perhaps provide a home for some ex TFW 150's?
•Bit of a long shot however maybe 175's could be an option for a few years?

Please not that these are all my own opinion and has not been confirmed or for all I know mentioned by GWR.

 

[Peregrine 4903]

I reckon that GWR have got a trick up there sleeve for this one:
•Get 769's in service ASAP to make more sprinters available
•Perhaps provide a home for some ex TFW 150's?
•Bit of a long shot however maybe 175's could be an option for a few years?

Please not that these are all my own opinion and has not been confirmed or for all I know mentioned by GWR.

769's are gone though and won't be entering service.

 

[Class172]

• Perhaps provide a home for some ex TFW 150's?

This is the only scenario you’ve listed that I could believe has any possibility of happening, but is still contingent on external factors, such as the introduction of new fleets for TfW. The 769s are confirmed as on their way out and bringing over an entire new design (class 175) of train seems unlikely.

 

[Wyrleybart]

I reckon that GWR have got a trick up there sleeve for this one:
•Get 769's in service ASAP to make more sprinters available
•Perhaps provide a home for some ex TFW 150's?
•Bit of a long shot however maybe 175's could be an option for a few years?

Please not that these are all my own opinion and has not been confirmed or for all I know mentioned by GWR.

It is DfT rather than GWR that have the tricks box, but I reckon it is empty.
All TOCs have to give a saving, so GWR's contribution is bin the HSTs and not renew the 769 contract.

I really cannot see 175s appearing, but maybe, just maybe, a few ex TfW 150s or 158s for a while.
Don't forget there isn't any growth anticipated by DfT for the forthcoming few years.

 

[Benjwri]

Get 769's in service ASAP to make more sprinters available

The 769s have been offices binned, they will never enter service with GWR.

It was mentioned in Parliament a few weeks ago though that they’ve found extra stock somewhere, but no details were given. It was promised by May, so the short rollout suggests it’s an existing type, therefore less work getting union approval etc. at a guess 150s from somewhere.

 

[william.martin]

The 769s have been offices binned, they will never enter service with GWR.

It was mentioned in Parliament a few weeks ago though that they’ve found extra stock somewhere, but no details were given. It was promised by May, so the short rollout suggests it’s an existing type, therefore less work getting union approval etc. at a guess 150s from somewhere.

It is DfT rather than GWR that have the tricks box, but I reckon it is empty.
All TOCs have to give a saving, so GWR's contribution is bin the HSTs and not renew the 769 contract.

I really cannot see 175s appearing, but maybe, just maybe, a few ex TfW 150s or 158s for a while.
Don't forget there isn't any growth anticipated by DfT for the forthcoming few years.

This is the only scenario you’ve listed that I could believe has any possibility of happening, but is still contingent on external factors, such as the introduction of new fleets for TfW. The 769s are confirmed as on their way out and bringing over an entire new design (class 175) of train seems unlikely.

769's are gone though and won't be entering service.

Again, it's only my (mad) opinion. I was getting confused with the TOC when it came to scrapping the (GWR) 769 programe.

 

[fgwrich]

This is the only scenario you’ve listed that I could believe has any possibility of happening, but is still contingent on external factors, such as the introduction of new fleets for TfW. The 769s are confirmed as on their way out and bringing over an entire new design (class 175) of train seems unlikely.

Given how rapid Stadler seem to get new fleets into traffic after the first few, I'd be surprised if they weren't TfW 150s destined for GWR. There's always an outside chance Porterbrook could offer a nice and cheap lease to TfW for the 769s as well, allowing more Sprinters to go first.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The 769s have been offices binned, they will never enter service with GWR.

It was mentioned in Parliament a few weeks ago though that they’ve found extra stock somewhere, but no details were given. It was promised by May, so the short rollout suggests it’s an existing type, therefore less work getting union approval etc. at a guess 150s from somewhere.

TfW 150s and/or 158s I guess. Both will be becoming available, though I think the 158s a fair bit later.

 

[william.martin]

TfW 150s and/or 158s I guess. Both will be becoming available, though I think the 158s a fair bit later.

I'm guessing we will need a full 197 takeover on both Cambrian and Holyhead services before we can even think about the future of the 158's.

 

[irish_rail]

I can't help but fear (seeing as this is the Dft we are talking about), the shortage of stock will be covered by short forming IETs on the London trains in order to gain additional 5 car sets. I just don't see there being any additional sets forthcoming whilst the dead hand of the Dft looms large.

 

[Dan G]

Why wouldn't ex-TfW Sprinters be available to GWR if and when they need them?

 

[bramling]

Why wouldn't ex-TfW Sprinters be available to GWR if and when they need them?

If DFT don’t want GWR to pay for them?

 

[GoneSouth]

GWR in their press release did mention that they wanted to cut carbon emissions.

Just follow the lead of TPE …

Fewer trains = Fewer emissions
Don’t bother running 40% of services = 40% reduction in emissions

Simples

This might genuinely be the case if they keep losing turbos! Is anybody planning for their obsolescence or are the DfT just going to wait and see!

 

[Snow1964]

So, what happens if the number of serviceable Turbos is still not enough after most of all of the 2+4 HST sets have been withdrawn, are we back to lots of cancellations?

According to my MP the lack of serviceable turbos, (or more specifically short formations and excessive over crowding due to lack of serviceable turbos, and withdrawal of Castle HSTs) was raised with rail minister, Huw Merriman early January.

Not yet been a reply on how it will be resolved.

However Huw Merriman advised during a parliamentary committee on 18th January that GWR Management has confirmed extra stock will be sourced and available by May when Metrowest phase 2 (Bristol-Yate-Gloucester frequency enhancement) is scheduled to start.

No indication of where from, how many, or what type, but my money is on something spare from Wales cascaded out by 197s, especially if training needs to be complete by May, which rather suggests 150s or 158s. The only other one I could think of is if some new 196s displaced 170s to East Midlands and they released token number of 158s

 

[Dan G]

If DFT don’t want GWR to pay for them?

GWR wouldn't have trouble filling them around Exeter or Bristol

 

[Clarence Yard]

Doesn’t matter how full the trains are. If DfT don’t want to pay, GWR don’t get.

 

[jimm]

TfW 150s and/or 158s I guess. Both will be becoming available, though I think the 158s a fair bit later.

I'm guessing we will need a full 197 takeover on both Cambrian and Holyhead services before we can even think about the future of the 158's.

According to my MP the lack of serviceable turbos, (or more specifically short formations and excessive over crowding due to lack of serviceable turbos, and withdrawal of Castle HSTs) was raised with rail minister, Huw Merriman early January.

Not yet been a reply on how it will be resolved.

However Huw Merriman advised during a parliamentary committee on 18th January that GWR Management has confirmed extra stock will be sourced and available by May when Metrowest phase 2 (Bristol-Yate-Gloucester frequency enhancement) is scheduled to start.

No indication of where from, how many, or what type, but my money is on something spare from Wales cascaded out by 197s, especially if training needs to be complete by May, which rather suggests 150s or 158s. The only other one I could think of is if some new 196s displaced 170s to East Midlands and they released token number of 158s

An article about the handing back of the the 769s and potential alternatives for boosting GWR's fleet by other means in the current Modern Railways says that the Class 158s are the last sets due to released by TfW when the 197s are phased into use, because they want to be sure the 197s will work reliably with the ETCS on the Cambrian Line.

One of the reasons the minister could presumably say what he did is the imminent conclusion of the Turbo refresh programme, which means that GWR will no longer have (two?) sets away at Wolverton works all the time.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

One of the reasons the minister could presumably say what he did is the imminent conclusion of the Turbo refresh programme, which means that GWR will no longer have (two?) sets away at Wolverton works all the time.

This isn’t imminent - whilst the 165 fleet is that far off completion all 21 x 166s are still to be done.

 

[Annetts key]

According to my MP the lack of serviceable turbos, (or more specifically short formations and excessive over crowding due to lack of serviceable turbos, and withdrawal of Castle HSTs) was raised with rail minister, Huw Merriman early January.

Not yet been a reply on how it will be resolved.

However Huw Merriman advised during a parliamentary committee on 18th January that GWR Management has confirmed extra stock will be sourced and available by May when Metrowest phase 2 (Bristol-Yate-Gloucester frequency enhancement) is scheduled to start.

No indication of where from, how many, or what type, but my money is on something spare from Wales cascaded out by 197s, especially if training needs to be complete by May, which rather suggests 150s or 158s. The only other one I could think of is if some new 196s displaced 170s to East Midlands and they released token number of 158s

Thank you for your reply.

However, if more DMUs are required to deliver more services, it very much becomes a numbers game. Meaning, whatever ‘extra’ DMUs are being found from elsewhere needs to be greater than the number needed to run these extra services plus allow for the unavailability of unserviceable Turbos.

We appear to be in an era of robbing Peter to pay Paul again…

 

[RPI]

Or a number of 150's could be made into 3 cars for Exeter! Exeter could then not have so much reliance of turbos, on paper it would be a loss of a vehicle on a lot of services on the Devon Metro, but in reality (with the constant short formations) it would be an increase of one vehicle on most trains!

Admittedly this does reduce the flexibility within the fleet though but generally the 150 fleet is more reliable than the turbo fleet.

 

[Annetts key]

Or a number of 150's could be made into 3 cars for Exeter! Exeter could then not have so much reliance of turbos, on paper it would be a loss of a vehicle on a lot of services on the Devon Metro, but in reality (with the constant short formations) it would be an increase of one vehicle on most trains!

Admittedly this does reduce the flexibility within the fleet though but generally the 150 fleet is more reliable than the turbo fleet.

Interesting. Shame really that 150001 that was for a time based at SPM and was often to be found on services around Bristol (including Exeter) got shifted off the GWR patch…

Also the 150s were introduced between 1985 and 1988. The Turbos were built from 1990 to 1993. So it appears the Turbos are doing less well than the older type…

 

[RPI]

Interesting. Shame really that 150001 that was for a time based at SPM and was often to be found on services around Bristol (including Exeter) got shifted off the GWR patch…

Also the 150s were introduced between 1985 and 1988. The Turbos were built from 1990 to 1993. So it appears the Turbos are doing less well than the older type…

It probably helps that the 150's are all looked after by one depot (Exeter) so there's no passing the buck between depots!

 

[HamworthyGoods]

Also the 150s were introduced between 1985 and 1988. The Turbos were built from 1990 to 1993. So it appears the Turbos are doing less well than the older type…

It’s nothing do to with ‘doing less well’ it’s difficulties getting parts for Turbos due to manufacturers going out of business or ceasing to supply certain parts is causing issues. There is a real concern this supply chain issue could spread to other fleets of a similar age.

150s being a more basic design by default need less replacement electronic parts.

If you want a comparison between fleets, look at the speed the turbos are getting refurbished compared to the Angel 150 which is still at works nearly a year later.

 

[CR165022]

Shame really that 150001 that was for a time based at SPM and was often to be found on services around Bristol (including Exeter) got shifted off the GWR patch…

Both 150001 & 002 were often working devon metro services towards the end of their time with GWR, it certainly helped in my opinion (having travelled on them far too many times back when that happened!)

 

[Annetts key]

It’s nothing do to with ‘doing less well’ it’s difficulties getting parts for Turbos due to manufacturers going out of business or ceasing to supply certain parts is causing issues. There is a real concern this supply chain issue could spread to other fleets of a similar age.

I was actually meaning availability, rather than trying to compare anything else. As although I know about electronic, electrical and electro-mechanical engineering, I know very little about the different systems used on rolling stock/locomotives/trains.

But thank you for explaining what the actual problems are. Parts going obsolete also affect other parts of the railways. I know, I’ve been in a situation where we had to phone around in an attempt to get spare parts…

Sound like the problems with the Turbos is worse though.

 

[Dan G]

How many Turbos are diagrammed each day around Exeter?

 

[REVUpminster]

How many Turbos are diagrammed each day around Exeter?

Average of three, sometimes two and very occasionally four. There has been a few more 2 car 158s lately. I've given up recording them on strike days.

To me the ideal Paignton- Exmouth service is 3 turbos and 8 150s as 4 X4 car trains. They do reduce the 150s to one unit in the evenings.

 

[yorksrob]

I can't help but fear (seeing as this is the Dft we are talking about), the shortage of stock will be covered by short forming IETs on the London trains in order to gain additional 5 car sets. I just don't see there being any additional sets forthcoming whilst the dead hand of the Dft looms large.

Exactly. This is exactly what they will do, with no scrutiny because by the time the effects are felt, the trains will have been scrapped.

 

[Rich McLean]

It is DfT rather than GWR that have the tricks box, but I reckon it is empty.
All TOCs have to give a saving, so GWR's contribution is bin the HSTs and not renew the 769 contract.

I really cannot see 175s appearing, but maybe, just maybe, a few ex TfW 150s or 158s for a while.
Don't forget there isn't any growth anticipated by DfT for the forthcoming few years.

If DfT will not allow TOCs to take on cascaded stock, they will be sent off to storage, followed by a one way trip to Newport. As it stands, 175s are likely to be heading in that direction as the ROSCO has tried to see if there is any interest, and they have had several rejections. GWR may get some ex TfW 150s. XC may get some cascaded 221s. But if the DfT doesn't sanction it, we could see Ex TfW 150s, 175s, Ex EMR 222s and Ex AWC 221s head for scrap, as the ROSCOs will not keep them in warm storage for a long period.

 

[Wyrleybart]

If DfT will not allow TOCs to take on cascaded stock, they will be sent off to storage, followed by a one way trip to Newport. As it stands, 175s are likely to be heading in that direction as the ROSCO has tried to see if there is any interest, and they have had several rejections. GWR may get some ex TfW 150s. XC may get some cascaded 221s. But if the DfT doesn't sanction it, we could see Ex TfW 150s, 175s, Ex EMR 222s and Ex AWC 221s head for scrap, as the ROSCOs will not keep them in warm storage for a long period.

Would there even be a mechanism in place for the TOCs to go out seek and procure more stock ?
I cannot imagine it. I see the TOCs (with a responsibility to their stakeholders) as purely attempting to run the DfT timetable with whatever they have. Would investment in additional rolling stock leases be born by the TOC or DfT

I am afraid i just see a return to the 1995 carve up of 25 companies into TOCs - all nicely set solid in aspic to prevent any significant. Who remembers the old Central Trains Coventry-Nottingham service which serviced cities of learning like Coventry, Leicester, Loughborough and Nottingham. I imagine if it were relaunched to skint students it might be popular, sadly the original being sacrificed on the altar of inconvenience to the railway operators

Is it possible to have flair these days, or is the timetable sliced ore trashed because there isn't enough X / / X delete as appropriate