Network Rail makes new offer to the RMT union

[greyman42]

There'll be a change of government at some point next year. At this point it could rumble on until then.

So how will a change of government help things?

 

[the sniper]

Do you object to that?

It is what it is, it just has to be recognised, which you did.

 

[Trothy]

I'm a pay consultant. NOBODY is getting even close to inflation in this market. 4-6% is the norm in private sector

Not the private sector but Criminal Barristers were awarded a 15% rise back in September 2022 after prolonged strike action.

And even the ONS has regular salaries (not including bonuses) rising by 7.2% in the private sector.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 2 Feb 2023 ==

Than have a meal out with my manager, a small gift and a certificate or ornament.

But I don't think you understand? Now you'll get 4 gifts/meals/certificates! Surely now you'll accept our generous offer!
/Sarcasm/

 

[12LDA28C]

RPI is not now the Government’s standard measure of inflation. It is CPI.

That has been the case for a number of years, no doubt because CPI is usually lower and makes the figures look better. It doesn't mean that CPI is the more accurate measurement of inflation.

That doesn't change the fact that pay rises on the railway have (pre-Covid) always been linked to the RPI, a system which worked perfectly well before the Treasury started getting directly involved.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 2 Feb 2023 ==

I'm a pay consultant. NOBODY is getting even close to inflation in this market. 4-6% is the norm in private sector

I didn't suggest they were. My post was a response to someone claiming that the current offer was 'close to the rate of inflation' which it clearly isn't.

 

[Annetts key]

RPI is not now the Government’s standard measure of inflation. It is CPI.
The relevant numbers are 0.6%, 4.6% and 9.3%.

Thinking about it, maybe the U.K. government should officially acknowledge food price inflation. The November 2022 figure being 16.4%. After all, everyone has to eat…
(Source from here: https://www.statista.com/statistics/537050/uk-inflation-rate-food-in-united-kingdom/)

 

[Bald Rick]

Says who? You?

It’s not me ‘saying’ anything. It’s just the facts. All I was pointing out was that the current deal is not going to be RPI; in other words it used to be, and now it isn’t.

I spoke to about 30 signallers, several SSM's and several S+T members of staff who all felt that making changes to this was pointless.

out of interest, why? It’s more generous, and more frequent. Previously you had to wait until 25 years, now there’s awards at 10, 20, 30 and 40 years. Each with a decent value of gift (which you can choose in vouchers) and you are able to go out for a decent meal on the company, with family or friends, something which hasn’t been permitted for a long time. I agree it’s hardly earth shattering, but an extra couple of hundred quid every 10 years is definitely better than nothing, so why is it ‘pointless’.

That has been the case for a number of years, no doubt because CPI is usually lower and makes the figures look better. It doesn't mean that CPI is the more accurate measurement of inflation.

CPI is more accurate. No other country in the World’s top 30 economies calculated inflation in the way RPI is calculated (The main differences are how mean prices are calculated, and what expenditure is included, CPI uses a broader basket of domestic expenditure both in times and who it affects)

A quote from The National Statistician:

In 2013, the RPI lost its status as a National Statistic. Our position on the RPI is clear: we do not think it is a good measure of inflation and discourage its use. There are other, better measures available and any use of RPI over these far superior alternatives should be closely scrutinised.

That doesn't change the fact that pay rises on the railway have (pre-Covid) always been linked to the RPI, a system which worked perfectly well before the Treasury started getting directly involved.

Thats not the case. Plenty of railway staff have had pay rises at levels not referenced to RPI (and lower) for over a decade. I’m one of them.

Nevertheless, things change. How pay and pay rises are calculated has evolved for the 198 years the railway has existed. And it will continue to change.

 

[alxndr]

I’m not sure where people are getting this idea that MM is coming in as is regardless. The whole point of the industrial action is to get the company to come back to negotiate properly rather than just telling the RMT team what they are intending to do.

The company are always going to put their side to employees to try to get them to back down.

There will eventually be a negotiated agreement.

Local consultation is underway and the most recent message from the RMT at the time of posting included (bold mine):

Therefore, the company is imposing Modernising Maintenance without the agreement of RMT and despite serious safety concerns being raised by your National Safety Council in consultation which has not concluded.

Perhaps it's a comprehension issue on my part, but that very much read as though MM in some form is an inevitability. I'm hoping that the outcomes of the local consultation will soften the blow as much as possible, but it certainly feels as though something will be coming in, although we don't know what yet. From what I've heard informally from a rep at those meetings the approach is very different across the various routes.

There is definitely a long service award at 25, but I thought there was also (already) one at 40. Not that I’m sure mind…

It currently depends on the contract that you're on. A table of the different variations can be found on page 3 of the RMT offer breakdown. If you're GTRM (which is most prevalent on the western) then you're correct in thinking it's 25 and 40 years.

I spoke to my team about it today, and they thought it was a good thing.

It's a good thing, but certainly far from enough to sway anyone. A one off payment of a couple of hundred pound is neither here nor there in the grand scheme of things.

 

[12LDA28C]

Thats not the case. Plenty of railway staff have had pay rises at levels not referenced to RPI (and lower) for over a decade. I’m one of them.

Fair enough. Mine have always been linked to RPI.

 

[Annetts key]

@alxndr, see also post #60…

About the rate of inflation. In the real world, nether CPI or RPI will be accurate. As the actual rate of inflation will vary for each individual. I know that for the items that I buy, the rate of inflation is definitely going to be different to that of someone else, as what I buy will almost certainly be slightly different or more different.

Both CPI and RPI should be treated in the same way as any other ‘average’ type figure. Hence in any negotiation for more money, any sensible negotiator for the beneficiary will want the higher figure. Conversely, the organisation that would have to fund it, will much prefer the lowest figure.

On that basis alone, of course the employees should be asking for the RPI figure. Unless of course they ask for the food inflation figure…

 

[Class 170101]

See section 7 of the attached:

I've listed the excluded National Rail operators:



I think originally Transport for Wales was on the excluded list but has since been added to the included list

London Underground and Eurostar are excluded for all New entrants but a cross London journey is permitted (presumably MTR would be the same here?). I have a feeling GC are excluded as well.

I'm a pay consultant. NOBODY is getting even close to inflation in this market. 4-6% is the norm in private sector

BT staff got something like 16% did they not?

 

[Confused52]

BT staff got something like 16% did they not?

They did not, 6% for the top earners and 15% only for the lowest is what I saw. They are increasing prices by RPI+3 in April not capped - that will cause an uproar in due course.

 

[Class 170101]

They did not, 6% for the top earners and 15% only for the lowest is what I saw. They are increasing prices by RPI+3 in April not capped - that will cause an uproar in due course.

BT and unions agree pay rise of up to 16% to stop more strikes

Most workers will get a wage rise of £1,500 in a deal that is set to halt walkouts at the telecoms giant.

www.bbc.co.uk

BT and unions agree pay rise of up to 16% to stop more strikes

Telecoms giant BT has agreed a pay deal with union bosses that will see workers who earn £50,000 or less get a £1,500 pay rise next year.
The agreement, which will be put to union members, could lead to the end of strike action at the company.
BT said 85% of its UK-based staff would benefit from the wage increase.
Combined with a pay rise made in April, the total increase for the lowest paid employees at BT will be more than 15% since this time last year.
The Communication Workers Union (CWU) said the deal would mean wage rises ranging from 6% to 16% for workers of different grades.

Thats what I read

 

[43066]

They did not, 6% for the top earners and 15% only for the lowest is what I saw. They are increasing prices by RPI+3 in April not capped - that will cause an uproar in due course.

But the “pay consultant” above who claimed that nobody is getting anything like approaching the rate of inflation has been proved incorrect. There are similar pay rises in other parts of the private sector - professional services for example.

I suppose the more pertinent point is what Ts and Cs are average workers (getting circa 6-7%) being expected to give up in exchange for their rise? I’d bet good money precious few will be moving to permanent night shifts as some RMT members will be doing!

 

[Bald Rick]

Telecoms giant BT has agreed a pay deal with union bosses that will see workers who earn £50,000 or less get a £1,500 pay rise next year.

Compare to the £1750 minimum for NR staff in year one, plus 4% in year 2…

 

[Alex1971]

I know a lot of band 5-8 staff have had their fill of the strikes, especially as we feel we have been used as extra body's to back maintenance up. What makes it worse is that we know that some maintenance staff in our depot have been getting cooked up overtime to cover strike day loses and even being booked rest days on strike days when we know it shouldn't be the case.

 

[Novern Uproar]

Received an email from the RMT today encouraging us to give feedback to reps, but also dissecting the pay offer and basically saying we should fight on. However quite a few of my signalling colleagues, probably the majority, feel we aren't getting anywhere and have had enough of pointlessly losing money. Its obvious NR, under the instructions of the government, aren't going to back down. Think there will be a slow but steady drift back to work now. And we'll lose the next compulsory ballot in May. Hope we get a referendum before then and save face.

 

[43066]

out of interest, why? It’s more generous, and more frequent. Previously you had to wait until 25 years, now there’s awards at 10, 20, 30 and 40 years. Each with a decent value of gift (which you can choose in vouchers) and you are able to go out for a decent meal on the company, with family or friends, something which hasn’t been permitted for a long time. I agree it’s hardly earth shattering, but an extra couple of hundred quid every 10 years is definitely better than nothing, so why is it ‘pointless’.

A couple of hundred quid every ten years isn’t pointless!? It’s £1.66 per month .

Whether this dispute will be worth continuing for signallers is another matter, of course. And possibly the same for platform staff grades. Part of the RMT’s problem is that they represent a range of grades, some of whom earn a lot more than others, not all of whom have aligned interests.

In stark contrast to the ASLEF side of the dispute where many members are frustrated that action hasn’t been ramped up…

 

[Bald Rick]

In stark contrast to the ASLEF side of the dispute where many members are frustrated that action hasn’t been ramped up.

Well you guys can afford to

I don’t think the public will have much sympathy for drivers rejecting a £5k+ pay offer. (Yes I know T’s and Cs are also an issue, but the public won’t see / care about that).

And I also know ASLEF doesn’t care what the public think!

 

[43066]

Well you guys can afford to

Most of us would be happy with a moderate rise, perhaps equivalent to the average 6-7%. In fact the government could have saved itself a world of pain and awarded that across the board…

I don’t think the public will have much sympathy for drivers rejecting a £5k+ pay offer. (Yes I know T’s and Cs are also an issue, but the public won’t see / care about that).

I’ve heard several say “I’d rather no pay rise than this!”.

And I also know ASLEF doesn’t care what the public think!

Entirely correct. Most of the public don’t have the foggiest idea what we actually do anyway!

 

[Horizon22]

fair point: most staff who started after 1995 (?) get nowt.

The numbers of protected staff employed by NR are falling quite quickly now as they get closer to retirement.

As you say, let's not forget thats 28 years ago now, and people who started pre-1995 and many who are still employed in the railway will be approaching retirement.

 

[43066]

As you say, let's not forget thats 28 years ago now, and people who started pre-1995 and many who are still employed in the railway will be approaching retirement.

There are still some who joined at 16 knocking around in their late mid-late 40s.

 

[Horizon22]

I'm a pay consultant. NOBODY is getting even close to inflation in this market. 4-6% is the norm in private sector

It doesn't help that several companies HAVE got closer than 5% though and in the railway, although these have been TfL concessions for the most part in areas with revenue has stayed relatively strong.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 2 Feb 2023 ==

There are still some who joined at 16 knocking around in their late mid-late 40s.

Which will, on the whole, be a tiny % of current railway staff.

 

[43066]

Which will, on the whole, be a tiny % of current railway staff.

Not sure on the %s but in many operational grades it’s possibly more than you might imagine! People do tend to stick around in this industry.

Not forgetting it’s an ageing workforce, I’d be surprised if the average age was below 45 in many grades. Of course that’s partly skewed by older joiners, of which there are again a fair few, who won’t be safeguarded.

 

[Facing Back]

Entirely correct. Most of the public don’t have the foggiest idea what we actually do anyway!

We know exactly what you do! You press a button to start the train, another one to stop the train, and presumably watch you-tube in-between! You don't even have to steer and don't get me started on this insisting on getting out the train and walking to the other end of it in order to reverse!

 

[43066]

We know exactly what you do! You press a button to start the train, another one to stop the train, and presumably watch you-tube in-between! You don't even have to steer and don't get me started on this insisting on getting out the train and walking to the other end of it in order to reverse!

Oh absolutely. In fact, the last time I drove a train backwards*, I didn’t even bother to change ends.

*I was uncoupling it at the time.

 

[Annetts key]

We know exactly what you do! You press a button to start the train, another one to stop the train, and presumably watch you-tube in-between! You don't even have to steer and don't get me started on this insisting on getting out the train and walking to the other end of it in order to reverse!

The best part is that it’s the signallers that generally play with their buttons. Then S&T have to fix them (the buttons rather than the signallers…).

We would watch YouTube, but when stood in the dark and cold night in the middle of nowhere, the signal is a bit $#*t…

 

[Facing Back]

The best part is that it’s the signallers that generally play with their buttons. Then S&T have to fix them (the buttons rather than the signallers…).

We would watch YouTube, but when stood in the dark and cold night in the middle of nowhere, the signal is a bit $#*t…

Hahaha

 

[High Dyke]

Along with a change to long service awards, awards given at 10, 20, 30 and 40 years service instead of a single award at 25. (No-one cares about this)

I do. I'm only a couple of years short of the current long service award, but it looks like management want to change the goalposts.

 

[43066]

I do. I'm only a couple of years short of the current long service award, but it looks like management want to change the goalposts.

What will you actually get?

 

[High Dyke]

What will you actually get?

Not actually sure. I think it's a meal and some points towards a gift.