Woking - Basingstoke (near Hook) landslip (15/01/23)

[Tim M]

How often are bi-di capabilities we already have actually used? They're good in places but we don't need a national programme of making our railways far more expensive to run. The SWML if done today would probably be bi-di on the centre lines, similar to the Trent Valley, but we don't need every twin track in the country to have the option, even if other countries (mainly ones which use speed signalling) do.

The answer about how often is bi-di used is probably ‘not nearly enough’. ETCS is essentially ‘speed signalling’, moving UK rail away from route signalling with a bit of speed control added where necessary. Just think how much interlocking design could be simplified with all the speed control incorporated in the ETCS block processor data.

Used creatively bi-di could be used for example to get past failed trains or around possessions with enforced Temporary Speed Restrictions of say 15km/h past work sites. How are train speeds managed past the Hook slip, TSR boards and temporary fencing? A bit crude compared to what ETCS will provide.

The operators need to be asked if bi-di would have helped over a range of incidents over the last twelve months to understand the value (which with the current penalty regime used in the UK will be measured in pounds) of such a change.

BTW why would bi-di be more expensive to run? Once new track layouts have been established and ETCS up and running, apart from extra maintenance if more points are required, (which could be done with trains routed around them more easily than today), where would the extra on going costs arise?

I understand that that UK rail is very risk adverse. I would question if it’s easier to be risk adverse vs. fully quantifying the cost/benefits of mitigating risks.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 2 Feb 2023 ==

Bi di costs a lot more, and in most cases provides limited benefit. The Sums just don’t add up for most locations.




and often extra train detection, plus of course the data / design

Why would bi-di cost a lot more? Yes it will with signals, but marker boards are cheap in comparison. Additional train detection might be required, there is a need to think creatively on signalling layouts, ignoring some traditional concepts, even the need for overlaps might be questioned.

As I said previously data generation should be automated. A colleague at Westinghouse in Chippenham was producing Control Tables and SSI data automatically from the track layout some 15 to 20 years ago, AFAIK this was used routinely on a number of Contracts. Extracting data from a CAD drawing isn’t rocket science, it’s something I was doing over 40 years ago.

 

[zwk500]

BTW why would bi-di be more expensive to run? Once new track layouts have been established and ETCS up and running, apart from extra maintenance if more points are required, (which could be done with trains routed around them more easily than today), where would the extra on going costs arise?

Conventional Bi-di is more expensive to install and maintain. ETCS makes sense to put in as much bi-di as possible.

 

[FuzzyDuck]

A problem with a broken down crane meant that trains couldn't run on the section until around 9AM this morning.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-hampshire-64495248

 

[duncanp]

Does anyone know what service is currently supposed to be running between Waterloo and Fleet, as I have to make this return journey next Friday? (10th February)

National Rail Enquiries indicates two stopping trains per hour and one fast train per hour, which doesn't seem right, as this is the normal service and a reduced service is supposed to be operating.

 

[Bald Rick]

Does anyone know what service is currently supposed to be running between Waterloo and Fleet, as I have to make this return journey next Friday? (10th February)

National Rail Enquiries indicates two stopping trains per hour and one fast train per hour, which doesn't seem right, as this is the normal service and a reduced service is supposed to be operating.

The changes for next week haven’t been published yet. Assume it is the same as this week.

Next week might be the last for the alterations, though.

 

[Class 170101]

How often are bi-di capabilities we already have actually used?

Reasonably well in disruption where I am.

Bi di costs a lot more, and in most cases provides limited benefit. The Sums just don’t add up for most locations.

Maybe it does cost more, but with people's expectations of being kept moving and not waiting around I'd say its worth it. NR doesn't manage Single Line Working as well as it once did I am afraid nor does it have the human resources ready to go if its required on an emergency basis

Ely !!!?

Or more precisely, Ely - Ely North Jnc

Used most of the day to make Ely North Jn less restrictive and now extends to Ely West Jn on the Down Line.

 

[43066]

Bi di costs a lot more, and in most cases provides limited benefit. The Sums just don’t add up for most locations.

I take it SIMBIDs wouldn’t be allowed anymore due to degraded protection?

It’s still in place in a few locations, including (from memory) Orpington - Sevenoaks, Tonbridge and Ashford - any idea when it was last used?

 

[Bald Rick]

but with people's expectations of being kept moving and not waiting around I'd say its worth it.

People’s expectations don’t pay the bills. Revenue pays the bills, and bidi creates little of it.

NR doesn't manage Single Line Working as well as it once did I am afraid

That’s because it’s largely not permitted for the times when you might need it, eg engineering work.

I take it SIMBIDs wouldn’t be allowed anymore due to degraded protection?

It’s still in place in a few locations, including (from memory) Orpington - Sevenoaks, Tonbridge and Ashford - any idea when it was last used?

No idea, I’m afraid.

 

[Class 170101]

People’s expectations don’t lay the bills. Revenue pays the bills, and bidi creates little of it.

But if you offer a poor service in disruption that doesn't bring in future revenue and indeed adds costs in delay repay and bad publicity.

That’s because it’s largely not permitted for the times when you might need it, eg engineering work.

High Output Ballast Cleaner / Track Renewal System did use though so of the SLW times were competing with bus journeys in terms of time though it must be said not changing from onje mode to the mode and back is always better

I take it SIMBIDs wouldn’t be allowed anymore due to degraded protection?

No idea, I’m afraid.

I don't think new installations are allowed anymore, existing systems are still allowed to be used though. Was used for HOBC / TRS on GE Southend Route a few years back and still used for getting around failed trains, landslips etc.

 

[43066]

I don't think new installations are allowed anymore, existing systems are still allowed to be used though. Was used for HOBC / TRS on GE Southend Route a few years back and still used for getting around failed trains, landslips etc.

Thanks. That’s sort of what I expected. A pity in a way as it was a neat and cheap BR style solution!

 

[Bikeman78]

That’s because it’s largely not permitted for the times when you might need it, eg engineering work.

Which perhaps goes some way to answering the question as to why the railway costs so much. I've run wrong line in Belgium more times than I can possibly remember. Usually whilst minor work is undertaken on the other track during off peak times. Occasionally to get around a failure.

 

[The Ham]

But if you offer a poor service in disruption that doesn't bring in future revenue and indeed adds costs in delay repay and bad publicity.

Indeed and ETCS (if it doesn't add much to the cost to allow Bidirectional use) could be a way to ensure that disruptions are less of an issue.

As such, even if the capacity improvements are limited (for example an extra 2tph) it could still be worth rolling it out.

Whilst such items don't add a lot to the income, they could help reduce the costs and retain passengers.

If it was in place around the Hook area it could have mitigated against the woeful lack of rail replacement buses in the first week.

It does make me wonder if Dawlish was to have failed when there was an equal lack of buses whether those from the Torbay area may have been less critical of the suggestion to reopen via Okehampton to allow through travel without the need to bus everyone (in that you need fewer buses to cover just the Torbay area rather than everyone).

 

[infobleep]

I saw this poster at the Brighton Yard entrance yesterday (Thursday).

It said:

Landslip between Woking & Basingstoke

Due to a major landslip we will not be able to serve Hook, Winchfield or Fleet stations until further notice Please do not travel to these stations as you won't be able to

We are currently advising against all but essential travel on services between London and Basingstoke, Bournemouth, Southampton, Weymouth, Salisbury and Exeter

Please check your journeys by visiting www.southwesternrailway.com

NetworkRail

South Western Railway

 

[Colin1501]

Does anyone know what service is currently supposed to be running between Waterloo and Fleet, as I have to make this return journey next Friday? (10th February)

National Rail Enquiries indicates two stopping trains per hour and one fast train per hour, which doesn't seem right, as this is the normal service and a reduced service is supposed to be operating.

Currently one fast (the Portsmouth via Eastleigh), and an hourly Waterloo to Basingstoke service. The latter has been halved in frequency while the temporary arrangements are in place. There's not much difficulty running consecutive fast services on a double track railway, but add stoppers into the mix and it gets trickier!

 

[fandroid]

I saw this poster at the Brighton Yard entrance yesterday (Thursday).

It said:


View attachment 128190

Out of date by almost two weeks. Why doesn't someone wake up and remove it?

 

[QueensCurve]

How often are bi-di capabilities we already have actually used? They're good in places but we don't need a national programme of making our railways far more expensive to run. The SWML if done today would probably be bi-di on the centre lines, similar to the Trent Valley, but we don't need every twin track in the country to have the option, even if other countries (mainly ones which use speed signalling) do.

Agree. There are certain places where it won't be, but they're very small. Bi-di for ETCS is mainly data, it only requires an additional block marker sign and maybe a couple of extra balises.

ISTR the line was under possession when the slip happened. Not sure if the SLW was instituted as soon as the line opened or if there was further disruption after that.

The answer is that it would be used a lot if it were provided.

Bidirectional signalling prevents a double line being blocked in the event of a failed train or a signal failure. At Bath about 4 years ago all trains were able to run "wrong line" between Bathampton and Oldfield Park following a reported wrong side signal failure. It would prevent the WCML descending into chaos every time a freight train sits down on the long drag up to Beattock Summit.

It would enable weekday engineering work to be done on one line while the other remains open. It could be used to provide a green zone for the person inspecting the track. In Switzerland (St Leonards, Rhône Valley) in 1996 I was on a train that passed wrong line while workers were cleaning up body parts on the line normally used towards Genf.

The BLS in Switzerland is a very adventurous user of the bidirectional facility. About 20y ago I saw a very heavy freight train (3x10,000hp Re6/6 locos heading and another 3 in the midde) routed wrong line out of Brig towards the Lötschberg Tunnel then stop and wait while 2 passenger trains overtook before setting off again.

Britain has always seen bidirectional signalling as unaffordable but I am sure it pays for itself many times over when provided.

 

[zwk500]

Britain has always seen bidirectional signalling as unaffordable but I am sure it pays for itself many times over when provided.

This is not accurate - Britain has provided bi-di signalling on many lines since colour-light signalling has been a thing. Some are attempts to make the process cheaper like SIMBIDs but some are fully-blown equal linespeed like the Trent Valley. If it's being installed it's obviously seen as worth it.
I do wonder if speed signalling (or at least a speed supervision system) does have something to do with it - bi-di certainly seems to be much more common over here on the continent than in the UK, or is it to do with the way the interlockings are set up?

Either way, with ETCS coming in hopefully a lot more bi-di will be coming about as it becomes a lot easier to place marker boards than trying to get signal sighting approval, although it looks like the Moorgate lines haven't been set up for it due to the track layout, from OTT.

 

[Falcon1200]

Britain has always seen bidirectional signalling as unaffordable but I am sure it pays for itself many times over when provided.

Yes indeed; During my Control career I lost count of the number of times one line of the WCML was blocked but the other was available; The cost of the delays resulting from the time taken to institute Single Line Working (often 4 [four] staff required on the ground) and to pass services through it would surely have paid for bi-directional signalling many times over, a point I regularly made at post-incident reviews but which fell on stony ground.

 

[pompeyfan]

I’m under the impression that during the 2006(?) resignalling of Basingstoke there was plans to make the Up Slow bi directional but was discounted in the closing stages. This of course would have meant during week one of the slip that no up trains could have called at Hook - Brookwood but would have provided a broadly similar number of trains as has been provided this week (excluding the ASLEF picket lines disruption)

 

[Bald Rick]

The answer is that it would be used a lot if it were provided.

At Bath about 4 years ago all trains were able to run "wrong line" between Bathampton and Oldfield Park following a reported wrong side signal failure.

“A lot” = about once every four years?

The cost of the delays resulting from the time taken to institute Single Line Working (often 4 [four] staff required on the ground) and to pass services through it would surely have paid for bi-directional signalling many times over, a point I regularly made at post-incident reviews but which fell on stony ground.

In most cases, the cost of delays is insignificant compared to the cost of installing bidi, and particularly retrofitting it to existing signalling.

I will say that one of the few places where bidi might pay, at the time if the next resignalling, is Preston - Carstairs.

 

[Tim M]

In most cases, the cost of delays is insignificant compared to the cost of installing bidi, and particularly retrofitting it to existing signalling.

I will say that one of the few places where bidi might pay, at the time if the next resignalling, is Preston - Carstairs.

My original post suggesting the use of bi-di signalling was associated with implementing ETCS, not retrofitting. Here’s a thought, use ETCS overlaid to give bi-di with unidirectional conventional signalling, perfectly feasible.

You suggest Preston - Carstairs, an excellent example, but anywhere with double track would benefit. For example Woking to Portsmouth, recovery from a failed train situation would be much quicker than is possible today. Were you aware that Crewe to Shrewsbury was equipped with bi-di when resignalled about ten years ago with WESTRACE Modular as was North Wales Coast more recently? If those lines (and for that matter the WCML north of Preston) can go bi-di, why not commuter routes with much greater service frequencies.

 

[Bald Rick]

You suggest Preston - Carstairs, an excellent example, but anywhere with double track would benefit. For example Woking to Portsmouth, recovery from a failed train situation would be much quicker than is possible today.

The reason I mentioned Preston Carstairs is that it is a rather important route for high value intercity traffic and a core freight route. Despite using the Portsmouth line often myself, it’s neither of these things.

Were you aware that Crewe to Shrewsbury was equipped with bi-di when resignalled about ten years ago with WESTRACE Modular as was North Wales Coast more recently?

Yes, as I helped specify it. The bidi was done as a trial, to assess actual costs of it in a modular signalling scenario, as we were promised it woudl be much cheaper. This was compared to the Ely to Norwich modular resignalling which did not have bidi. As a direct result of this trial, and the cost comparisons, we now have a very clear idea of the cost of providing bidi, and the benefits it brings.

Consequently, the number of routes that have subsequently had modular / simple signalling installed with comprehensive bi-di (as on Shrewsbury - Crewe) is nil.

 

[Falcon1200]

I will say that one of the few places where bidi might pay, at the time if the next resignalling, is Preston - Carstairs.

Yes indeed (although I would say Preston - Law Junction, for freight traffic reasons!). For part of my career I was responsible (as a NR Controller) for the Scottish part of the route; Sometimes, due to the remoteness of the locations, it could take up to two hours just to get staff on site for Single Line Working (SLW), never mind actually pass any trains through it. And one day I came in for a nightshift after an up freight had derailed at Beattock, not fouling the Down line but blocking the crossovers there, so the SLW was a double section, Wamphray/Summit. When I started there were already 9 (nine) trains standing, so the first thing I did was tell Motherwell and Carlisle Signalling Centres not to despatch any further trains towards the area, as they would end up standing for hours. That one incident might have paid for bi-di!

 

[Bald Rick]

That one incident might have paid for bi-di!

I doubt it. Compensation for a delayed freight train rarely runs to more than a couple of thousand quid.

 

[fandroid]

The revised timetable due to the slip adds in Woking stops on the SWR mainline. As has been mentioned elsewhere, the previous non-stop trains between Winchester and London had already had a Basingstoke stop added.

As a resident of the latter place I've always resented those non-stop trains and thought that the TOC was focussing too much on London traffic and not enough on more local travel between the fairly heavily populated places in between the coast and Waterloo. Personally I could never understand those non-stop trains continuing late into the evening, especially when I wanted to get home from Southampton and was faced with a wait at Winchester for a slower train to finish the journey.

The nonstoppers were lightly patronised northbound in the evenings anyway, so extra stops would attract customers without slowing the service down much.

Anyway, to get to the point. Why cannot the service on the SWR mainline have a minimum stopping pattern of Southampton Parkway, Winchester, Basingstoke, Woking? The time penalties would be of little consequence. Basingstoke has a lot of customers and interchanges from Salisbury and the Reading line. Woking stops offer connectivity to Guildford and the North Downs line. Let's have a regular interval service, with a more generous stopping pattern, creating more journey opportunities, not a line solely focussed on London.

 

[pompeyfan]

The revised timetable due to the slip adds in Woking stops on the SWR mainline. As has been mentioned elsewhere, the previous non-stop trains between Winchester and London had already had a Basingstoke stop added.

As a resident of the latter place I've always resented those non-stop trains and thought that the TOC was focussing too much on London traffic and not enough on more local travel between the fairly heavily populated places in between the coast and Waterloo. Personally I always resented those non-stop trains continuing late into the evening, when I wanted to get home from Southampton and was faced with changing at Winchester onto a slow train from Portsmouth. The nonstoppers were lightly patronised northbound in the evenings anyway, so dwell times at intermediate stations would have been minimised.

Anyway, to get to the point. Why cannot the service on the SWR mainline have a minimum stopping pattern of Southampton Parkway, Winchester, Basingstoke, Woking? The time penalties would be of little consequence. Basingstoke has a lot of customers and interchanges from Salisbury and the Reading line. Woking stops offer connectivity to Guildford and the North Downs line. Let's have a regular interval service, with a more generous stopping pattern, creating more journey opportunities, not a line solely focussed on London.

Calling additionally at Woking causes a significant time penalty because of the 100mph running through the platform, and would then likely cause issues with the pathing and headways across the junction. The slow speed turn out for Clapham Jn the same reason. Basingstoke isn’t too bad but again the junction there could cause issues. The ongoing 30mph TSR on the up fast over the diamond on the junction doesn’t tend to cause a huge issue because the 1Wxx that doesn’t call at Basingstoke on the up if usually right behind an Exeter train which is a couple of minutes late.

 

[Falcon1200]

I doubt it. Compensation for a delayed freight train rarely runs to more than a couple of thousand quid.

I wasn't being entirely serious, hence the explanation mark!

However, OTOH, given that there were already nine trains standing when I took duty, plus the scores more trains which were heavily delayed or cancelled until normal working was eventually resumed, the financial hit to the railway was huge, no matter who ended up paying.

 

[swt_passenger]

Have there been any recent updates to the expected timescales for the repair?

 

[The Ham]

Have there been any recent updates to the expected timescales for the repair?

There was another "town hall" meeting on Monday, so someone who logged in to it may know.

 

[gazr]

I take it SIMBIDs wouldn’t be allowed anymore due to degraded protection?

It’s still in place in a few locations, including (from memory) Orpington - Sevenoaks, Tonbridge and Ashford - any idea when it was last used?

Headcorn - Ashford was used yesterday due to a broken rail.