How could the Brigg Line service be improved; could it go to another operator?

[flitwickbeds]

...proposing removing the Saturday service completely and reducing the Mon-Fri to one service each way per day "to contibute to the 10% savings...

What Monday to Friday service? It's been Saturdays only for years...

 

[lyndhurst25]

What Monday to Friday service? It's been Saturdays only for years...

Perhaps they mean the Gainsborough Central to Sheffield service?

 

[mocko]

Based on the IBLRG's tweets - the Saturday service via Brigg (three trips each way) will be withdrawn and replaced with a single trip each way Mon-Fri.

As much of the Brigg line's passenger traffic is weekend leisure journeys, and it's hard to imagine much commuter use (especially as it's effectively unusable traveling west!), this may well lead to a situation where Northern can justify closing the route altogether. A cynic might even think the move was calculated to achieve this...

 

[30907]

Based on the IBLRG's tweets - the Saturday service via Brigg (three trips each way) will be withdrawn and replaced with a single trip each way Mon-Fri.

As much of the Brigg line's passenger traffic is weekend leisure journeys, and it's hard to imagine much commuter use (especially as it's effectively unusable traveling west!), this may well lead to a situation where Northern can justify closing the route altogether. A cynic might even think the move was calculated to achieve this...

It depends when the service runs, really.
It has to run from the Sheffield end as Northern don't have a base at Cleethorpes.
A service between the peaks (0900-ish returning at 1500-ish) would offer a reasonable (if short) day trip, but not be very efficient - you could almost fit in another round trip.
A single round trip with a short wait at CLP would be pretty useless (except MFO for short breaks).
Either would involve more mileage than at present, though, so it's slightly puzzling, unless there are NR savings from the line closing altogether on Saturdays.

 

[lachlan]

Based on the IBLRG's tweets - the Saturday service via Brigg (three trips each way) will be withdrawn and replaced with a single trip each way Mon-Fri.

As much of the Brigg line's passenger traffic is weekend leisure journeys, and it's hard to imagine much commuter use (especially as it's effectively unusable traveling west!), this may well lead to a situation where Northern can justify closing the route altogether. A cynic might even think the move was calculated to achieve this...

It does feel like a deliberate move to discourage usage of the line, after the campaign group have been pushing Saturday day trips by train.

 

[lyndhurst25]

Sheffield 0954 - Cleethorpes 1144
Cleethorpes 1320 - Sheffield 1512

Gives you an hour and a half by the seaside. I can’t see that being useful to anyone.

Also looks like the much reduced Sheffield to Gainsborough Central service has gone, with the useless daily return service to Cleethorpes being the only train to serve Gainsborough Central.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Dear though some of these things are to certain groups etc....is it not time to admit it is not worth the effort. Seriously.

Compare for example the loss , for the moment of a 6 day a week service from Bedford to Bletchley.

Or is every train service sacred. ?

 

[flitwickbeds]

Dear though some of these things are to certain groups etc....is it not time to admit it is not worth the effort. Seriously.

Compare for example the loss , for the moment of a 6 day a week service from Bedford to Bletchley.

Or is every train service sacred. ?

No. But if TOCs/DfT/NR/Government are so confident that a service is not used, then follow the law and close the station/line properly.

It's not like consultations can't be largely ignored and actions carried out regardless of the result. It seems to me that everyone says "the process is so costly it's not worth doing" but I can't imagine that placing a few adverts in a few newspapers, hiring a village hall or two for a few events, and employing someone for a few weeks to write a report (because that's essentially all you need to do if you're going to ignore the result anyway) is more expensive than keeping (say) Denton and Reddish South stations maintained, the drivers' route knowledge maintained, and scheduling the drivers and rolling stock every week, for the last 31 years?

 

[ChiefPlanner]

No. But if TOCs/DfT/NR/Government are so confident that a service is not used, then follow the law and close the station/line properly.

It's not like consultations can't be largely ignored and actions carried out regardless of the result. It seems to me that everyone says "the process is so costly it's not worth doing" but I can't imagine that placing a few adverts in a few newspapers, hiring a village hall or two for a few events, and employing someone for a few weeks to write a report (because that's essentially all you need to do if you're going to ignore the result anyway) is more expensive than keeping (say) Denton and Reddish South stations maintained, the drivers' route knowledge maintained, and scheduling the drivers and rolling stock every week, for the last 31 years?

I have to agree with you ......scope the usage , take a view on strategic issues , and so the neccesary (which might include retention)

Years ago , and I am talking years - the virtually unused halt on the Cambrian called Blackrock got washed away in a storm , closure notices racked up something like 40 protesters , some had used it for a fishing trip decades ago. It was not rebuilt.

Stockport - Stalybridge at one time used some valuable time in a peak DMU working , when that set could have ameliorated some "real" passengers. As for the charade with the West London link twixt the "Western" and Waterloo via the Latchmere Junctions.......

 

[Bletchleyite]

Also looks like the much reduced Sheffield to Gainsborough Central service has gone, with the useless daily return service to Cleethorpes being the only train to serve Gainsborough Central.

Is that well used? It looks well timed for a commute and so its withdrawal to be more of an issue. Is there a decent alternative connection from Lea Road?

Edit: yes, there's a much better service from Lea Road to Sheffield. I wonder if Central is used for those trains so they don't clog up Lea Road reversing?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 2 Feb 2023 ==

Dear though some of these things are to certain groups etc....is it not time to admit it is not worth the effort. Seriously.

Compare for example the loss , for the moment of a 6 day a week service from Bedford to Bletchley.

Or is every train service sacred. ?

At least the Marston Vale has the bus service. But I don't think that was for financial reasons, though I'm sure WMT have been able to put it towards their 10%. Having said that I believe it uses 8 buses as against 2 DMUs so may not even be cheaper.

 

[tbtc]

I’m not a fan of the Operator Of Last Resort’s Northern operations (nor am I a fan of the way that politics means that some enthusiasts turn a blind eye to OLR cuts, who’d have been apoplectic if a “private” company had made)

However I’m a little confused by this “cut”… swapping three return journeys a week on the Brigg line for five return journeys a week is meant to be an economy? And a diagram that seems more about giving the train staff a leisurely stroll along the beach than actual passenger demand? (Or a quick turnaround in Cleethorpes to ensure that the stock can be used for other services later in the day)

I’m sure this’ll encourage more staff to volunteer for Brigg line route training, if it means no weekend trips and a cushty hour and a half at the seaside on weekdays… that’s the priority, right?

 

[zwk500]

No. But if TOCs/DfT/NR/Government are so confident that a service is not used, then follow the law and close the station/line properly.

I agree

It's not like consultations can't be largely ignored and actions carried out regardless of the result. It seems to me that everyone says "the process is so costly it's not worth doing" but I can't imagine that placing a few adverts in a few newspapers, hiring a village hall or two for a few events, and employing someone for a few weeks to write a report (because that's essentially all you need to do if you're going to ignore the result anyway) is more expensive than keeping (say) Denton and Reddish South stations maintained, the drivers' route knowledge maintained, and scheduling the drivers and rolling stock every week, for the last 31 years?

The issue with the cost is that Keeping a station open if the line isn't under threat doesn't actually cost very much at all. The public consultation is a bit more involved than you describe, and importantly as the closure process is a legal process it potentially involves lawyers, especially if people appeal the decision. A Judicial Review is very expensive to fight.
If the line itself would be closed as part of closing the station, then you have to factor in the cost of the possessions and signalling alterations to remove the junction (or accept the maintenance burden until such a time as you'd normally renew/relay it).

Having said that, there's a fundamental question here: Does the railway line actually serve a transport need other than 'to have a railway station'?
Brigg's nearest big town is Scunthorpe, which it does not have a rail link to and a bus will beat the connection at Barnetby handily. The town itself is quite small, and Kirton Lindsey is even smaller. Freight on this line from Immingham could only run to Doncaster or Sheffield, which it can already do via Scunthorpe, and Immingham has a secondary route via Market Rasen. Grimsby and Cleethorpes passengers are going to be much better served by changing in Doncaster or Lincoln. Where do the 5,000 good folk of Brigg actually want to go, and is the available rail network able to serve that?

 

[Railwaysceptic]

Where do the 5,000 good folk of Brigg actually want to go, and is the available rail network able to serve that?

I don't know the area or the local culture/way of life, but presumably some people have links to/interest in Mansfield and Nottingham instead of Sheffield?

 

[zwk500]

I don't know the area or the local culture/way of life, but presumably some people have links to/interest in Mansfield and Nottingham instead of Sheffield?

I don't know the area either, but I struggle to see why they'd have greater connection to Mansfield than Sheffield. The town is actually north of Sheffield, and links directly via the M180/M18/M1. Nottingham I could understand as it's a big enough place that there may be some local connection but is it enough to justify some form of rail service?
The only bus through Brigg is to Scunthorpe, suggesting that is indeed the larges market, and it's the one the railway can't serve effectively. If there's little travel east of Gainsborough Central, maybe the kindest thing to do is to put the Brigg line to rest.

 

[lyndhurst25]

Is that well used? It looks well timed for a commute and so its withdrawal to be more of an issue. Is there a decent alternative connection from Lea Road?

Edit: yes, there's a much better service from Lea Road to Sheffield. I wonder if Central is used for those trains so they don't clog up Lea Road reversing?

Lea Road station is on the very edge of Gainsborough and not as convenient as the centrally placed Central station. Back in 2019 things were looking bright when Northern introduced a regular Gainsborough Central to Sheffield service, with the hope that some trains would one day be extended to Cleethorpes to give a regular weekday service via Brigg for the first time since the early 1990s. I don’t know how many new passengers it attracted before if got cut soon afterwards due to covid.

Although important, the Brigg line isn’t just about serving the town of Brigg with a train service. It brings trains into the heart of Gainsborough. It provides a link between Grimsby/Cleethorpes and Gainsborough/Retford/Worksop. It provides competition for price gouging TPE for the South Yorkshire to Cleethorpes day trip and holiday market (where have all the day return fares gone, TPE?). But for these to happen the line needs a minimum of three trains each way, 6 or 7 days per week. Unfortunately Northern aren’t interested.

 

[Philip]

If there's little travel east of Gainsborough Central, maybe the kindest thing to do is to put the Brigg line to rest.

It is a useful alternative route for Manchester-Cleethorpes services, so closing the line isn't really a sensible option.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Lea Road station is on the very edge of Gainsborough and not as convenient as the centrally placed Central station.

Is that really true, though, when presumably most people drive to it from home? For traffic sinks town centre stations are better (because that's where most people are going), for traffic sources a bit out of town is often preferred as parking is easier and there's less of a bike theft issue?

 

[Starmill]

yes, there's a much better service from Lea Road to Sheffield. I wonder if Central is used for those trains so they don't clog up Lea Road reversing?

They go to Gainsborough Central because there was an hourly service between Sheffield and Gainsborough Central before the pandemic.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 3 Feb 2023 ==

Is that really true, though, when presumably most people drive to it from home? For traffic sinks town centre stations are better (because that's where most people are going), for traffic sources a bit out of town is often preferred as parking is easier and there's less of a bike theft issue?

Before the pandemic when there was an hourly service to Gainsborough Central, it certainly was used by people going from Worksop or Retford to Gainsborough town centre.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 3 Feb 2023 ==

It is a useful alternative route for Manchester-Cleethorpes services, so closing the line isn't really a sensible option.

It isn't though. TPE use replacement buses when part of the line between Sheffield and Barnetby via Doncaster is closed, they don't run via Brigg. They did one train a day ten years ago during the Hatfield landslip, and that took months to instigate.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 3 Feb 2023 ==

However I’m a little confused by this “cut”… swapping three return journeys a week on the Brigg line for five return journeys a week is meant to be an economy? And a diagram that seems more about giving the train staff a leisurely stroll along the beach than actual passenger demand?

Indeed. And comparing this fiscal year's service which has been zero trains per week, to next fiscal year's which will be five per week, is certainly interesting in the context of the much-discussed real funding reduction.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Indeed. And comparing this fiscal year's service which has been zero trains per week, to next fiscal year's which will be five per week, is certainly interesting in the context of the much-discussed real funding reduction.

Is it possible that these will come back out again in the final timetable? It did seem to be suggested on the cuts thread that what's in RTT isn't necessarily the final version, and it does seem that no cuts at all (bar DalesRail) have been applied to West yet, which seems improbable - there must surely be something.

 

[zwk500]

Is that really true, though, when presumably most people drive to it from home? For traffic sinks town centre stations are better (because that's where most people are going), for traffic sources a bit out of town is often preferred as parking is easier and there's less of a bike theft issue?

Gainsborough central is worth keeping as it does provide space to terminate the sheffield trains as well as access to Gainsborough Town Centre. Small it might be, but I don't think reducing the access would help the town centre survive.

Indeed. And comparing this fiscal year's service which has been zero trains per week, to next fiscal year's which will be five per week, is certainly interesting in the context of the much-discussed real funding reduction.

Although I wonder if this isn't a way to increase costs to give weight to a formal withdrawal application. I have nothing against closing the line if it genuinely isn't making sense, but I do think lines should be given a fair chance to make their case properly rather than closure through terrible service/unmaintained buildings.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Although I wonder if this isn't a way to increase costs to give weight to a formal withdrawal application. I have nothing against closing the line if it genuinely isn't making sense, but I do think lines should be given a fair chance to make their case properly rather than closure through terrible service/unmaintained buildings.

I'm inclined to agree with this, though I suppose there's the question of who funds a "trial proper service" for 3-5 years, which is how long it normally takes for something like that to reach a stable level of usage (it's no coincidence that bus service planning gain for new housing estates tends to be for 5 years - that's how long it takes to find out if it's going to find its feet or not).

It's also worth bearing in mind that if we close a railway it won't, in the vast majority of cases, ever come back. And if you close it but protect the trackbed (e.g. as a cycleway), then you don't realise the value you would get by selling it off.

 

[ricoblade]

Is that really true, though, when presumably most people drive to it from home? For traffic sinks town centre stations are better (because that's where most people are going), for traffic sources a bit out of town is often preferred as parking is easier and there's less of a bike theft issue?

There is very limited parking at Lea Road, approx 10 spaces.

 

[zwk500]

I'm inclined to agree with this, though I suppose there's the question of who funds a "trial proper service" for 3-5 years, which is how long it normally takes for something like that to reach a stable level of usage (it's no coincidence that bus service planning gain for new housing estates tends to be for 5 years - that's how long it takes to find out if it's going to find its feet or not).

This is a big issue. My personal rule would be it must have the agreed service level for a minimum of 2 years before you start the study period, which must last for a minimum of 1 year but ideally 2. This avoids people jumping the numbers to keep the station open but also means the process isn't completely interminable.

It's also worth bearing in mind that if we close a railway it won't, in the vast majority of cases, ever come back. And if you close it but protect the trackbed (e.g. as a cycleway), then you don't realise the value you would get by selling it off.

This is true. Although the value of a strip of land 10m wide in Lincolnshire isn't likely to be particularly high anyway. In fact a cycleway may well be the highest net value.

 

[Iskra]

I’m not a fan of the Operator Of Last Resort’s Northern operations (nor am I a fan of the way that politics means that some enthusiasts turn a blind eye to OLR cuts, who’d have been apoplectic if a “private” company had made)

However I’m a little confused by this “cut”… swapping three return journeys a week on the Brigg line for five return journeys a week is meant to be an economy? And a diagram that seems more about giving the train staff a leisurely stroll along the beach than actual passenger demand? (Or a quick turnaround in Cleethorpes to ensure that the stock can be used for other services later in the day)

I’m sure this’ll encourage more staff to volunteer for Brigg line route training, if it means no weekend trips and a cushty hour and a half at the seaside on weekdays… that’s the priority, right?

But, if you have more traincrew available midweek, this could help free up crew on a Saturday to aid resilience and demand then…

 

[Starmill]

I'm inclined to agree with this, though I suppose there's the question of who funds a "trial proper service" for 3-5 years, which is how long it normally takes for something like that to reach a stable level of usage (it's no coincidence that bus service planning gain for new housing estates tends to be for 5 years - that's how long it takes to find out if it's going to find its feet or not).

It would be far better use of the money to tender a bus between Brigg and Barnetby station which has say a flat £1 add on fare for rail ticket holders and connects with the (supposey) hourly fast service from Liverpool, Sheffield and Manchester.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It would be far better use of the money to tender a bus between Brigg and Barnetby station which has say a flat £1 add on fare for rail ticket holders and connects with the (supposey) hourly fast service from Liverpool, Sheffield and Manchester.

This ends up down my standard plughole of "yes, a properly integrated bus service would be better, but the UK is incapable of doing a properly integrated bus service".

See the thread about Skelmersdale for the latest pathetic half-job.

 

[lyndhurst25]

It would be far better use of the money to tender a bus between Brigg and Barnetby station which has say a flat £1 add on fare for rail ticket holders and connects with the (supposey) hourly fast service from Liverpool, Sheffield and Manchester.

Like I said above, the Brigg line isn’t just about serving the town of Brigg. Far from it.

And have you seen the price of fares from Barnetby? Adding a further £2 to those isn’t going to make them any more attractive.

 

[zwk500]

Like I said above, the Brigg line isn’t just about serving the town of Brigg. Far from it.

But the line through Brigg doesn't need to stay open for trains to serve Gainsborough central, only the spur from trent Jns.

The only purpose you identified specific to the whole line is Providing competition on price with TPE between Sheffield/Retford and Cleethorpes (let's face it, Grimsby isn't a tourist destination), but that can be provided via Lincoln if needed, and with no proper service the line is hardly providing stiff competition at the moment. I suspect the car will always compete more effectively than either line for the day at the beach crowd.

Once again, Grimsby and Cleethorpes have other routes to Doncaster, Sheffield, and Lincoln. Freight has other routes to Sheffield and Worksop. Gainsborough central can stay open as a spur to terminate the Sheff/Worksop/Retford services on, so the rest of the line is only serving Brigg. And the key question, which remains unandswered, is 'Where do people in Brigg want to go?'.

Once you've identified the neutral travel demand, you can then proceed to working out if the train might reasonably be able to serve it.

 

[D6130]

Like I said above, the Brigg line isn’t just about serving the town of Brigg.

There's also Kirton Lindsey.

 

[Bletchleyite]

There's also Kirton Lindsey.

There is, but it's tiny and the station is inconveniently outside the village.