Future of the Settle to Carlisle, Bentham and Ribble Valley lines

[Halish Railway]

From this it seems that you wouldn't really save much time by skipping Cononley, unless the semifasts ran fast from Shipley to Skipton (not possible under the current timetable but theoretically doable). This would give departure from Skipton at xx51, saving a minimum of five minutes over the current timings.

It does seem that when driven up to 90mph where possible, 158s do manage to make up quite a bit of time between Leeds and Skipton, although that is partly down to the amount of pathing/performance/engineering allowances.

Until a year or two ago there was an EMU worked Skipton to Leeds service calling at Keighley, Bingley and Shipley en-route, although it was pathed as a 75mph 15x. I did the service on a 322 which absolutely obliterated the timings, getting into Keighley about 3 minutes early. I'd imagine whatever replaces the 158s (probably a decade in the future) on the Morecambe and Carlisle services (Probably cascaded 195s or something new) will have similar performance characteristics to the 321/322s.

 

[InkyScrolls]

It does seem that when driven up to 90mph where possible, 158s do manage to make up quite a bit of time between Leeds and Skipton, although that is partly down to the amount of pathing/performance/engineering allowances.

Until a year or two ago there was an EMU worked Skipton to Leeds service calling at Keighley, Bingley and Shipley en-route, although it was pathed as a 75mph 15x. I did the service on a 322 which absolutely obliterated the timings, getting into Keighley about 3 minutes early. I'd imagine whatever replaces the 158s (probably a decade in the future) on the Morecambe and Carlisle services (Probably cascaded 195s or something new) will have similar performance characteristics to the 321/322s.

There still are a few services on Sundays booked as 333s or 331s which call only at KEI - BIY - SHY. What I believe is the 1030 departure from SKI is timed at 32 mins, which is pretty much optimal.

 

[D6130]

You'd struggle to get a better time without the semifasts skipping Bingley.

The semi-fasts always used to skip Bingley - with the exception of the Up morning Ribblehead and the Down evening Morecambe and Carlisle - but Bingley is a slightly larger town than Skipton and the locals had been campaigning for years to have the Carlisle and Morecambe trains stop there. Once the more intensive local service was introduced with electrification in 1995, there was the necessary slack in the semi-fast pathing times to allow all of them to stop there.

 

[xotGD]

The semi-fasts always used to skip Bingley - with the exception of the Up morning Ribblehead and the Down evening Morecambe and Carlisle - but Bingley is a slightly larger town than Skipton and the locals had been campaigning for years to have the Carlisle and Morecambe trains stop there. Once the more intensive local service was introduced with electrification in 1995, there was the necessary slack in the semi-fast pathing times to allow all of them to stop there.

Quite right that they stop at Bingley!

 

[Bletchleyite]

It's just been posted on the May 2022 cuts thread that DalesRail will not operate in 2023. A precursor to closing and lifting Clitheroe-Hellifield? Though it does seem to have freight.

I must admit I think this having a regular service would have more value than Bentham. Politically easier though I guess.

 

[zwk500]

It's just been posted on the May 2022 cuts thread that DalesRail will not operate in 2023. A precursor to closing and lifting Clitheroe-Hellifield? Though it does seem to have freight.

I must admit I think this having a regular service would have more value than Bentham. Politically easier though I guess.

Clitheroe Hellifield is used to supply the Clitheroe cement works, among other freight and charters. It won't be worth the costs of closure.

 

[Ianigsy]

Clitheroe Hellifield is used to supply the Clitheroe cement works, among other freight and charters. It won't be worth the costs of closure.

It’s a very useful bit of railway because it keeps diesel-hauled freight and infrastructure trains off the Preston-Carlisle section of the WCML. For charters it’s a selling point to cover Shap one way and the S&C the other, and again also means that the charter only has to be pathed in one direction between Preston and Carlisle.

 

[yorksrob]

It's just been posted on the May 2022 cuts thread that DalesRail will not operate in 2023. A precursor to closing and lifting Clitheroe-Hellifield? Though it does seem to have freight.

I must admit I think this having a regular service would have more value than Bentham. Politically easier though I guess.

Enough with this already, why rob Peter to pay Paul. Bentham is already well used and other routes don't need to be justified by ditching it.

 

[70014IronDuke]

Quite right that they stop at Bingley!

Is it? Serious question.

Do many Bingley folk head north or west of Skipton? Or visitors to the town orginate from such places? ie use the S&C or Bowland lines?

If not, surely the electric services are all they need.

 

[chorleyjeff]

It’s a very useful bit of railway because it keeps diesel-hauled freight and infrastructure trains off the Preston-Carlisle section of the WCML. For charters it’s a selling point to cover Shap one way and the S&C the other, and again also means that the charter only has to be pathed in one direction between Preston and Carlisle.

As a matter of information how many non passenger trains other than cement from Clitheroe run between Blackburn and Hellifield per week ? And if steam charters can run along the WCML North of Preston why not freight trains ?

 

[zwk500]

As a matter of information how many non passenger trains other than cement from Clitheroe run between Blackburn and Hellifield per week ? And if steam charters can run along the WCML North of Preston why not freight trains ?

I don't know the numbers but I'm pretty sure it's used by S&C quarries to access the WCML at Farington Jn
Steam charters are planned in otherwise empty space and are less than 500 tonnes, which makes a big difference up the hills compared to 2000 tonne freights

 

[D6130]

It's just been posted on the May 2022 cuts thread that DalesRail will not operate in 2023.

I supect that this is more to do with the shortage of Northern train crews at Blackpool depot....and in particular a scarcity of volunteers for Sunday working in the current industrial relations climate.

A precursor to closing and lifting Clitheroe-Hellifield?

I hardly think so. Network Rail have just spent a large amount of money strengthening and stabilising Whalley viaduct, which is partially built on very marshy ground.

I don't know the numbers but I'm pretty sure it's used by S&C quarries to access the WCML at Farington Jn

At present, the stone trains from Arcow and Ribblehead quarries run via Blea Moor (reverse), Skipton, Woodlesford, Wakefield Kirkgate and Hebden Bridge....which is logical, as their two destinations - Bredbury and Pendleton - are both in the Greater Manchester area. The new flow from Rylstone to Leyland also goes that way, in order to arrive at Leyland in the Down direction to be shunted back into the terminal. Whether or not the weight restriction on Whalley viaduct will be lifted on completion of the remedial works remains to be seen.

 

[yorksrob]

Is it? Serious question.

Do many Bingley folk head north or west of Skipton? Or visitors to the town orginate from such places? ie use the S&C or Bowland lines?

If not, surely the electric services are all they need.

It is. It's one of the larger urban areas on the route, so it makes sense to call there.

 

[70014IronDuke]

It is. It's one of the larger urban areas on the route, so it makes sense to call there.

I believe you when you say it's one of the larger urban areas, but that hasn't answered my question. If 90% of Bingley station users head towards Leeds and Bradford (or wherever, the point being not onto the S&C/Bowland) is it worth the DMU services stopping there? Unless, of course, they can't find paths to run non-stop.

 

[Neptune]

I believe you when you say it's one of the larger urban areas, but that hasn't answered my question. If 90% of Bingley station users head towards Leeds and Bradford (or wherever, the point being not onto the S&C/Bowland) is it worth the DMU services stopping there? Unless, of course, they can't find paths to run non-stop.

The same goes for all stops on the route up to Skipton and probably beyond. It’s passenger numbers pre covid were only 500k less than Shipley and Keighley and similar to Skipton. Why pick on Bingley?

 

[70014IronDuke]

The same goes for all stops on the route up to Skipton and probably beyond.

But it doesn't, does it? Not at all.
Bingley has electrics whizzing in 8 times an hour. Believe it or not, Gargrave. Hellifield, Long Preston etc don't have this luxury.

It’s passenger numbers pre covid were only 500k less than Shipley and Keighley and similar to Skipton. Why pick on Bingley?

You also miss the point. If the vast majority of those passengers go to Leeds, Bradford or somewhere in that direction, these passengers are perfectly well serviced with 4 TPH shared between Leeds and Bradford. And unless a decent number go beyond Skipton, they could easily change there and save the DMUs to Carlisle and Lancaster stopping at Bingley, and shave 2-3 mins off the schedules. (Think EMR connect - with next to no Nottingham and certainly no Sheffields stopping at LAP, Luton, Bedford or Wellingborough Mon - Sat. They are pretty big places too, but EMR isn't interested in giving them more than the merest token of direct services north of Kettering.)

But as I said from the start, it's genuine question. Perhaps a significant number do. I'd just like to know, if anyone has genuine knowledge. It's got nothing to do with 'picking on' Bingley as you put it.

 

[InkyScrolls]

But as I said from the start, it's genuine question. Perhaps a significant number do. I'd just like to know, if anyone has genuine knowledge. It's got nothing to do with 'picking on' Bingley as you put it.

As someone who works on the line, I think it's fair to say that Bingley does not produce many people travelling to/from the routes north of Skipton. Keighley does more so, as it tends to be more of a commuter destination for residents of the (southern end of the) S&C. You could remove Bingley and speed up the timetables by about two minutes, especially for the S&C. There wouldn't be any point for the Bentham Line due to pathing constraints at Carnforth.

 

[Ken H]

@70014IronDuke I saw arguments on here that Bingley & Shipley needed the DMU stops because of lack of capacity on the EMUs. Now with reduced demand now the argument is they need through trains to the West. I think the DMUs should stop Keighley & Skipton to reduce journey times from west of Skipton. But then I am biased cos I live west of Skipton!

 

[Ken H]

As someone who works on the line, I think it's fair to say that Bingley does not produce many people travelling to/from the routes north of Skipton. Keighley does more so, as it tends to be more of a commuter destination for residents of the (southern end of the) S&C. You could remove Bingley and speed up the timetables by about two minutes, especially for the S&C. There wouldn't be any point for the Bentham Line due to pathing constraints at Carnforth.

In the 70's the Carlisle trains ran fast Keighley - Leeds. The Morecambes were part of the Leeds - Skipton service. As an aside the Carlisles ran non stop Skipton - Settle too. Then Appleby. No intermediate stations then.
Of course the Morecambes didnt to Lancaster then. Carnforth, Bare Lane, Morecambe.

 

[chorleyjeff]

I don't know the numbers but I'm pretty sure it's used by S&C quarries to access the WCML at Farington Jn
Steam charters are planned in otherwise empty space and are less than 500 tonnes, which makes a big difference up the hills compared to 2000 tonne freights

Farington Junction - to go South on the WCML ? What is the destination for these trains ?
I think 500 tons for a heritage steam engine is heavy load especially for a class 5 or 6 not banked up Shap.
If spaces are otherwise empty why not use them for freight. However looking at actual non passenger trains on the S&C last week there were very few and some days non at all so perhaps there is, now, no need to think about diverting them over the WCML !

 

[D6130]

Unless, of course, they can't find paths to run non-stop.

That's the crux of the matter. If the Carlisle and Lancaster trains were to run non-stop they would catch up on the all stations electric in front....so they may as well stop at the bigger towns en route. Up DMU services frequently crawl along from Crossflatts to Shipley on reds changing to yellows as it is....even when stopping at Bingley.

 

[muddythefish]

I supect that this is more to do with the shortage of Northern train crews at Blackpool depot....and in particular a scarcity of volunteers for Sunday working in the current industrial relations climate.

I hardly think so. Network Rail have just spent a large amount of money strengthening and stabilising Whalley viaduct, which is partially built on very marshy ground.

At present, the stone trains from Arcow and Ribblehead quarries run via Blea Moor (reverse), Skipton, Woodlesford, Wakefield Kirkgate and Hebden Bridge....which is logical, as their two destinations - Bredbury and Pendleton - are both in the Greater Manchester area. The new flow from Rylstone to Leyland also goes that way, in order to arrive at Leyland in the Down direction to be shunted back into the terminal. Whether or not the weight restriction on Whalley viaduct will be lifted on completion of the remedial works remains to be seen.

Will those freights when Whalley is repaired run to Manchester via Blackburn and Bolton? It's the most direct route

 

[70014IronDuke]

That's the crux of the matter. If the Carlisle and Lancaster trains were to run non-stop they would catch up on the all stations electric in front....so they may as well stop at the bigger towns en route. Up DMU services frequently crawl along from Crossflatts to Shipley on reds changing to yellows as it is....even when stopping at Bingley.

Thank you. And to @InkyScrolls and @Ken H.

 

[30907]

Will those freights when Whalley is repaired run to Manchester via Blackburn and Bolton? It's the most direct route

Presumably, as the empties do it (via Lostock Hall to avoid the gradients and because the single line through Darwen is at capacity).

 

[xotGD]

OK, daft idea: Could trains from/to Leeds and Barrow be joined/split at Carnforth to save a path to/from Lancaster?

 

[70014IronDuke]

I believe it was @InkyScrolls some time back on this thread said that the current schedules could be tightened.

This has been proved this morning. By the looks of things, there must have been trouble at Leeds (signals, perhaps? Anyone know?) as both 2h12 - 07.48 to Carlisle - and 2H01 - 08.19 to Morecambe - were heavily delayed departing.

2H12 left 64' down, but managed to make up 17' by Carlisle, arriving 47' late. That must have taken some tight driving. The overall time of 2hr 25m is the same timing as the up semi-fast, which I think has 8 fewer stops on the line. Quite a performance.

Realtime Trains | 2H12 0748 Leeds to Carlisle | 04/02/2023

Real-time train running information for 2H12 0748 departure from Leeds to Carlisle on 04/02/2023. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

 

[zwk500]

OK, daft idea: Could trains from/to Leeds and Barrow be joined/split at Carnforth to save a path to/from Lancaster?

Is attaching permitted in the Up platform at Carnforth? I'd be surprised if the couplers could be reliably aligned on that curve.

Aside from that, it's not a good idea for staffing reasons as you'll have drivers needing to pass to Carnforth or spend a lot of time re-enacting Brief Encounter. It's also not great from a passenger perspective as you risk delays waiting for the other portion.

 

[InkyScrolls]

I believe it was @InkyScrolls some time back on this thread said that the current schedules could be tightened.

This has been proved this morning. By the looks of things, there must have been trouble at Leeds (signals, perhaps? Anyone know?) as both 2h12 - 07.48 to Carlisle - and 2H01 - 08.19 to Morecambe - were heavily delayed departing.

2H12 left 64' down, but managed to make up 17' by Carlisle, arriving 47' late. That must have taken some tight driving. The overall time of 2hr 25m is the same timing as the up semi-fast, which I think has 8 fewer stops on the line. Quite a performance.

Realtime Trains | 2H12 0748 Leeds to Carlisle | 04/02/2023

Real-time train running information for 2H12 0748 departure from Leeds to Carlisle on 04/02/2023. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Points failure at Dockfield Jct. at approx. 0730.

That is impressive - and shows just how much padding there is!

Is attaching permitted in the Up platform at Carnforth? I'd be surprised if the couplers could be reliably aligned on that curve.

Aside from that, it's not a good idea for staffing reasons as you'll have drivers needing to pass to Carnforth or spend a lot of time re-enacting Brief Encounter. It's also not great from a passenger perspective as you risk delays waiting for the other portion.

Permitted but, as you say, unwise.

 

[M&NEJ]

OK, daft idea: Could trains from/to Leeds and Barrow be joined/split at Carnforth to save a path to/from Lancaster?

...And isn't the main market to/from Lancaster & district (for Leeds or Barrow)?

 

[Meerkat]

If it doesn't make money then the question is what are we subsidising? If its middle class hikers with railcards then that isnt a great use of taxpayers money.
Living in the countryside is unviable without a car, and is clearly viable without trains as most of the countryside does without.
If you binned the Bentham line then it would improve the viability of running a decent bus service, particularly if some of the saving was spent on road improvements to speed them up. If it also frees up paths on the WCML for long distance passengers or freight then its a decision that must be taken.
A particular gripe of mine is country folk (often drawbridge raising incomers) blocking development yet still demanding unviable public transport.
If rural lines/stations are kept open then it should be at the price of development to make them more viable - Hellifield seems a good location to build a town with good transport links for example.

How feasible is it to add tourist units to the trains? I am thinking on the lines of converting class 175s* into tourist dining units and adding them onto the front/back of the normal service trains. They would be end to end trips so intermediate platforms wouldnt matter (with new stopping point signs). What would matter would be signals/pointwork at the end of the platforms (and how long are the bays at Carlisle?).
I'm thinking airline style food - they knock out reasonable meals for the better classes without kitchens don't they? Must be a pub/restaurant/hotels in Skipton/Settle/Carlisle that could load a couple of trolleys worth of meals??
The concept would be like a small scale charter but attached to normal services. Separate ticketing, all reserved (up to departure). Fares varying by time and product - posher runs at meal times, cheaper at non-meal times with snacks and hot drinks/booze.

*picked 175's as they are available soon, rather than any knowledge of availability, compatibility etc etc.