Liverpool to Sheffield via Chat Moss

[Manutd1999]

Currently the TPE and EMR services from Liverpool to Sheffield and beyond run via the CLC line (Widnes, Warrington etc.). At least they do on the rare occasions they are actually operating....

Longer term, could there be an opportunity to move these services to the Chat Moss line? There would be several benefits:

- Turn the CLC into a standalone line from Oxford Road. This could enable a more frequent all-stop service, or it could be handed over to Metrolink/Merseyrail.

- Journey time savings of 5-10 mins

- Simpler operation for TPE, with only 1x route from Liverpool to Manchester.

- Create the opportunity to use bi-mode rolling stock in the future, especially if the Midland Mainline and/or sections such as Sheffield-Doncaster are eventually electrified.

The main limitation is capacity at the Liverpool end. There are already 2ph TPE services to Victoria/Leeds/Newcastle operating via Chat Moss, plus 4ph stoppers pre-Covid (2x Wigan, Warrington, Manchester). Adding 2ph fast paths would be difficult, but is not impossible. A fast service to Manchester every 15 mins (2x Leeds, 2x Sheffield), followed immediately by a stopper, might just work? There is also a short 4-track section available around Huyton to allow some overtaking.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Would that not turn Chat Moss into another CLC in punctuality terms?

The real fix here is to build NPR on the Fiddlers Ferry line, then both Chat Moss and the CLC can be local stopping services only.

 

[The Planner]

What are the journey time savings based upon, is your suggestion that they run non stop on the Chat Moss? You would likely need to flight the fast services and forget about a evenly spaced frequency, it doesn't always work.

 

[Manutd1999]

What are the journey time savings based upon, is your suggestion that they run non stop on the Chat Moss?

The EMR Liverpool to Oxford Rd currently takes about 45 minutes, with stops at Parkway, Widnes and Warrington Central. The TPE from Liverpool to Victoria takes around 35 minutes with a stop at Lea Green.

You would likely need to flight the fast services

The exact pathing would require some thought but 8ph (4ph fast + 4ph stopper) out of Liverpool should be do-able.

 

[The Planner]

The EMR Liverpool to Oxford Rd currently takes about 45 minutes, with stops at Parkway, Widnes and Warrington Central. The TPE from Liverpool to Victoria takes around 35 minutes with a stop at Lea Green.




The exact pathing would require some thought but 8ph (4ph fast + 4ph stopper) out of Liverpool should be do-able.

Yes, but are you expecting the EMR or TPE to stop on the Chat Moss or just to go quicker. 4tph all stations? I doubt you are doing that without a fast catching it up, even with Huyton and Roby.

 

[mike57]

Another problem with moving to Chat Moss is that you lose some important destinations along the way. Warrington is important, and Liverpool SP connects with Liverpool airport and Mersey Rail. Lea Green on the other hand is a commuter station and doesnt warrant intercity services calling there anyway. For through passengers to the CLC stations that means another change, and all the problems that brings, which come down to a longer and more difficult journey. When TPE used to run the Scarboroughs by that route they were much better loaded (even overloaded) west of Manchester, when they moved to Chat Moss there was a noticable drop in usage.

 

[The Planner]

The EMR Liverpool to Oxford Rd currently takes about 45 minutes, with stops at Parkway, Widnes and Warrington Central. The TPE from Liverpool to Victoria takes around 35 minutes with a stop at Lea Green.




The exact pathing would require some thought but 8ph (4ph fast + 4ph stopper) out of Liverpool should be do-able.

Had another cursory look at this, it takes an all stations stopper 37½ minutes to do Huyton to Ordsall Lane. A TPE that stops at Lea Green does it in 24 minutes from Huyton to Ordsall Lane. The Chat Moss has a 3 minute headway, which means that the fast cannot get to Ordsall before xx.41 if the stopper got there at xx.37½. Back time the fast and its at Huyton at xx.17. Which presumably in your proposal is 2 minutes after the next stopper departs Huyton. It doesn't work.

 

[Bevan Price]

Another problem with moving to Chat Moss is that you lose some important destinations along the way. Warrington is important, and Liverpool SP connects with Liverpool airport and Mersey Rail. Lea Green on the other hand is a commuter station and doesnt warrant intercity services calling there anyway. For through passengers to the CLC stations that means another change, and all the problems that brings, which come down to a longer and more difficult journey. When TPE used to run the Scarboroughs by that route they were much better loaded (even overloaded) west of Manchester, when they moved to Chat Moss there was a noticable drop in usage.

Chat Moss was the original route of what became Trans Pennine. Trains were well loaded after the initial dieselisation, but a lot of passengers were driven away when they started mucking about with the timetable in (I think) the 1970s, including a spell when the Liverpool / Manchester section was reduced to 2-hourly, and they started omitting intermediate stops at St. Helens Junction and Earlestown on what had been some of their busiest trains of the day.

There might have been a time when extra fast services were feasible, but reduction from 4 to 2 tracks all the way between Edge Hill & Huyton, plus Barton Moss Jn & Ordsall Lane Jn make that difficult. The restoration from 2 to 4 tracks through Huyton & Roby is a marginal improvement, but did nothing to improve capacity at the Manchester end of the route.

 

[Manutd1999]

Had another cursory look at this, it takes an all stations stopper 37½ minutes to do Huyton to Ordsall Lane. A TPE that stops at Lea Green does it in 24 minutes from Huyton to Ordsall Lane. The Chat Moss has a 3 minute headway, which means that the fast cannot get to Ordsall before xx.41 if the stopper got there at xx.37½. Back time the fast and its at Huyton at xx.17. Which presumably in your proposal is 2 minutes after the next stopper departs Huyton. It doesn't work.

But only one of the stoppers go to Manchester. 2ph leave the line almost immediately to head to Wigan, and one goes to Warrington. That would allow a slightly flighted timtable to fit in 8ph. Something like this:

HUY-------------ERL----Ordsall Junc
xx00 stopper---xx16 ---xx38
xx18 Fast-------xx27---xx42
xx21 stopper (Wigan)
xx30 Fast-------xx39---xx54
xx33 stopper---xx49 (Warrington)
xx43 Fast-------xx52---xx07
xx51 stopper (Wigan)
xx57 Fast-------xx06---xx21

 

[Bletchleyite]

Problem is that it won't be punctual. The CLC has always suffered from delays on the Norwich affecting everything else.

 

[8A Rail]

A couple points which are relevant, the L&M route is also the main freight line for trains in and out of Liverpool Docks, therefore as well as the existing freight traffic, spare paths are still needed to allow growth. Other point is never mind routing all TPEx and EMR trains on to the L&M line, keep to the existing CLC as it has capacity to do so along with have two stoppers on the route. What the L&M line wants between the two cities or even Warrington Bank Quay (as previous) is another 'stopper' to increase the frequency from one per hour to two per hour especially to serve Whiston, Rainhill, Lea Green, St Helens Junction and Earlestown. People who live in these locations need it as the current service is not adequate, so the last thing required is rerouted trains that don't serve those stations. Another thing to remember, L&M line is also used as a diversionary route for the (Avanti) London trains too.

 

[4-SUB 4732]

Fundamentally, you want to get to a situation where Warrington Central is made slightly better (scissors crossovers at each end and the two sidings for flexibility) and to run a half-hourly Warrington to Mersey, a half-hourly Warrington to Oxford Road slow, and a half-hourly semi-fast.

The fact TPE and EMR run those two trains via Warrington is very good, as it effectively opens up Ordsall Lane Jn for a "parallel" move between the Victoria and Eccles (and vice versa) directions as the EMR/TPEs are crossing Castlefield.

That, and TPE can use wires and local trains are EMUs on the Chat Moss, whilst the pure DMUs can go via Warrington Central.

 

[Bevan Price]

But only one of the stoppers go to Manchester. 2ph leave the line almost immediately to head to Wigan, and one goes to Warrington. That would allow a slightly flighted timtable to fit in 8ph. Something like this:

HUY-------------ERL----Ordsall Junc
xx00 stopper---xx16 ---xx38
xx18 Fast-------xx27---xx42
xx21 stopper (Wigan)
xx30 Fast-------xx39---xx54
xx33 stopper---xx49 (Warrington)
xx43 Fast-------xx52---xx07
xx51 stopper (Wigan)
xx57 Fast-------xx06---xx21

You have forgotten the North Wales & Chester services that also use the Chat Moss route. And there may also be conflicting movements across Ordsall Lane Jn........

 

[mike57]

including a spell when the Liverpool / Manchester section was reduced to 2-hourly

When I first started using this route in around 1980 when I moved to Yorkshire I seem to remember that from York it was roughly hourly, but with the western end having at least two destinations, North Wales (Holyhead/Bangor?, I can remember getting a through train to Bangor) and Liverpool. Warrington has always been a regular destination of mine, but in those days it was Bank Quay, using the North Wales service, and of course for south Manchester destinations you changed at Stalybridge.

 

[The Planner]

But only one of the stoppers go to Manchester. 2ph leave the line almost immediately to head to Wigan, and one goes to Warrington. That would allow a slightly flighted timtable to fit in 8ph. Something like this:

HUY-------------ERL----Ordsall Junc
xx00 stopper---xx16 ---xx38
xx18 Fast-------xx27---xx42
xx21 stopper (Wigan)
xx30 Fast-------xx39---xx54
xx33 stopper---xx49 (Warrington)
xx43 Fast-------xx52---xx07
xx51 stopper (Wigan)
xx57 Fast-------xx06---xx21

If we take a look at the Liverpool end, a Chat Moss stopper takes 12 minutes to get to Roby and be into the 4 track section, so your next train cannot be until xx.15. It normally takes 7 for a fast train from Lime St, so back timing again, you leave Lime St at xx.08. Your stopper to Wigan cannot leave Lime St until xx.11 and get to Roby at xx.23. That works, but if you are looking at an evenly spaced service then the stopper doesn't leave Lime St until xx.15? so your stopper doesnt get to Roby until xx.27 with another fast right up behind it. However, I still think the first stopper gets ran down by the xx.30 fast.

 

[Manutd1999]

I think it would just about work if the times are not exactly clock-face and the Manchester and Warrington stoppers dwell a bit longer at Roby/Huyton to be looped:

----- LIV -- ROB - HUY -- ERL - Ordsall
Fast xx00---xx07-xx08---xx18---xx33

Stop xx07---xx19-xx26---xx43 (Warrington)
Fast xx15---xx22-xx23---xx33---xx48

Stop xx20---xx32-xx35 (Wigan)

Fast xx30---xx37-xx38---xx47---xx03

Stop xx33---xx45-xx52---xx09---xx30
Fast xx41---xx48-xx49---xx58---xx14

Stop xx50---xx02-xx05 (Wigan)


I still think there is merit in organising all of the fast services via Chat Moss. 10 mins journey time savings and freeing up the CLC line are not insignificant benefits. However, I agree that it seems this would be too tight to run reliably.

If the planned 20-minute frequency from Manchester to Sheffield is ever implemented (post Hope Valley upgrade), then this might work better. Only one train per hour would continue to Liverpool from Sheffield, with the others terminating at Piccadilly.

 

[The Planner]

I think it would just about work if the times are not exactly clock-face and the Manchester and Warrington stoppers dwell a bit longer at Roby/Huyton to be looped:

----- LIV -- ROB - HUY -- ERL - Ordsall
Fast xx00---xx07-xx08---xx18---xx33

Stop xx07---xx19-xx26---xx43 (Warrington)
Fast xx15---xx22-xx23---xx33---xx48

Stop xx20---xx32-xx35 (Wigan)

Fast xx30---xx37-xx38---xx47---xx03

Stop xx33---xx45-xx52---xx09---xx30
Fast xx41---xx48-xx49---xx58---xx14

Stop xx50---xx02-xx05 (Wigan)


I still think there is merit in organising all of the fast services via Chat Moss. 10 mins journey time savings and freeing up the CLC line are not insignificant benefits. However, I agree that it seems this would be too tight to run reliably.

If the planned 20-minute frequency from Manchester to Sheffield is ever implemented (post Hope Valley upgrade), then this might work better. Only one train per hour would continue to Liverpool from Sheffield, with the others terminating at Piccadilly.

The other thing to consider is if it all fits at Ordsall, all of this is based on the Chat Moss in isolation. Then you have to find the paths for Drax and anything new if Port Salford gets going.

 

[Jack Hay]

Another thing to consider is the passenger flow between Warrington and Manchester. This has always been a heavy flow and the non-stops between Manchester and Warrington Central load very well, and always have, despite a somewhat premium fare being charged (MAN-WAC is priced higher than WAC-LIV even though the latter is longer). MAN-WAC has been a heavy flow and a profitable route for the railway ever since the CLC opened in the 1870s. That's why it has expresses and not just an all-stations service. It's why the line is maintained to 85mph maximum, higher than much of the Chat Moss route. It's why the railways would be shooting themselves in both feet if the line was handed over to Metrolink. Incidentally, MAN-WBQ is not a good alternative. It takes longer, it is longer, and there are more conflicting junctions along the way. If you know Warrington, you know that Central is the station for Manchester.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

One thing for sure, this daft idea that keeps cropping up about splitting the CLC between Merseyrail and Metrolink needs to go the way of the E-Pacer and the 769. Particularly for the Metrolink half, unless TfGM were going to invest in vehicles that don't shake your teeth out above 40mph.

 

[317 forever]

I think 1 of them should be rerouted via Huyton and the other continue via Warrington Central. If the TPE one retains the Warrington routing this would help for when Liverpool - Huddersfield and beyond trains need rerouting due to engineering works anywhere between Manchester Victoria and Liverpool Lime Street via Huyton.