East Anglia region by 2050 (realistic not utopia)

[William3000]

There are lots of proposals for new stations and lines but what is a realistic prospect for what the network will look like in 2050. By that I mean I would suggest that Hunstanton reopening is not realistic much as I would like to see it.

Green: Improvements I expect to see
Cambridge South station
Extra platforms at Cambridge (Central)
New Waterbeach station and replacement of existing
More services to Stansted Airport
Four tracking southern approach between Cambridge and Shepreth branch
Beaulieu Park station
Some line speed improvements
Platform lengthening
Snailwell chord and direct trains from Ely to Cambridge via Soham


Amber: Improvements we may see
East West Rail
March to Wisbech reopening
King’s Lynn South/Parkway station
Norwich Eastern station somewhere near Postwick
Cambridge East, and Fulbourn stations and some dualling of Cambridge to Newmarket
Possible Dereham to Norwich service via MNR

Red: Improvements I don’t expect to see
Full electrification of Anglian network
Reinstatement of King’s Lynn to Hunstanton
Any major rail reopenings

Be interested in others’ thoughts

 

[Class15]

Green might happen, forget about everything else. EWR will be cancelled beyond MKC.

 

[PTR 444]

I imagine Felixstowe - Peterborough/Cambridge and Ely - Norwich will eventually be electrified long-term. Both lines provide a strategic link to the rest of the UK rail network, and the former particularly for freight.

The remainder I doubt very much wires will ever go up considering that those lines are good contenders for hydrogen powered traction.

 

[RailWonderer]

All the green except for more Stansted services due to the route not being able to handle that much capacity reliably. As for amber, all will probably happen except Norwich - Dereham and EWR, which will probably be still Oxford - Bedford. Optimistically I want to see Braintree - Bishops Stortford reopen which would mean direct services from the GE to Stansted and the WA though it probably won't happen at all.

 

[popeter45]

Not exactly Anglia territory but reintroduce of broad Street to Watford as a Liverpool Street via NLL and primroses hill to Watford services would be a nice to have

 

[A0]

Not exactly Anglia territory but reintroduce of broad Street to Watford as a Liverpool Street via NLL and primroses hill to Watford services would be a nice to have

I very much doubt there's capacity either out of Liverpool Street or along the North London Line for that, especially as the Graham Road curve is only single track therefore west > south moves block the opposing line.

 

[A0]

There are lots of proposals for new stations and lines but what is a realistic prospect for what the network will look like in 2050. By that I mean I would suggest that Hunstanton reopening is not realistic much as I would like to see it.

Green: Improvements I expect to see
Cambridge South station
Extra platforms at Cambridge (Central)
New Waterbeach station and replacement of existing
More services to Stansted Airport
Four tracking southern approach between Cambridge and Shepreth branch
Beaulieu Park station
Some line speed improvements
Platform lengthening
Snailwell chord and direct trains from Ely to Cambridge via Soham


Amber: Improvements we may see
East West Rail
March to Wisbech reopening
King’s Lynn South/Parkway station
Norwich Eastern station somewhere near Postwick
Cambridge East, and Fulbourn stations and some dualling of Cambridge to Newmarket
Possible Dereham to Norwich service via MNR

Red: Improvements I don’t expect to see
Full electrification of Anglian network
Reinstatement of King’s Lynn to Hunstanton
Any major rail reopenings

Be interested in others’ thoughts

Stansted can't take more trains - there's a capacity issue there of a single track on the approach, so unless the airport are prepared to fund the changes there, that won't happen.

Wisbech won't happen - it's benefits case doesn't add up. Bald Rick dismantled that one on another thread when he explained something like 80% of the benefits they were claiming could be achieved by simply running a second train an hour from March to Cambridge - that's without adding a single mile of track (at upwards of £ 40m / mile).

And no chance on Dereham - Norwich using the MNR - threads keep popping up suggesting links using heritage railways and the problems are 3 fold - firstly the heritage lines are volunteer run, to make them suitable for mainline running would require changes which are far beyond the ability and budget of those heritage lines. Secondly things like disabled access would need to be met - which would be very difficult for a heritage station without changes that would destroy the fabric of the attraction. Lastly you've got a linespeed of 25mph on most heritage railways (yes, I know the GCR is more, but that's the exception). Wymondham - Dereham is about 12 miles, so at 25mph you won't cover that in less than 30 minutes - add in another 15 mins to cover Wymondham - Norwich and you're looking at a journey time of at least 45 mins which is slower than the Excel bus which runs half hourly at present.

Assuming works at Ely take place, then I'd expect to see Haughley Junction to Ely and Peterborough electrified as well as the Felixstowe branch to allow an amount of freight to move to electric haulage.

Otherwise, I'd expect some new stations, but it won't be popular because it'll be justified by having a load of house building in the vicinity.

 

[cle]

Very Cambridge-centric innit...

not challenging or even disagreeing, Cambridge is a 'star', but interesting how the railway has replicated this.

 

[leytongabriel]

Would you not include lines in Essex and Herts nearer to London for improvement?
C2C left alone or incorporated? Bishops Stortford - Cambrige line speed?
Journey times to Hertford East or North? Lea Valley four -tracking?
I suppose I'm querying East Anglia or Greater Anglia.

 

[Magdalia]

So much depends on whether to take a glass half full or glass half empty view of geopolitics, climate change, and how long it will take for the UK to return to stable and functioning government.

Green: Improvements I expect to see
Cambridge South station
Beaulieu Park station

These are already happening, they are beyond the speculation stage.

Green: Improvements I expect to see
Extra platforms at Cambridge (Central)
Four tracking southern approach between Cambridge and Shepreth branch

These are totally dependent on East West Rail going ahead.

I see that you don't mention the Ely North Junction capacity upgrade. I'd put that in red.

Very Cambridge-centric innit...

not challenging or even disagreeing, Cambridge is a 'star', but interesting how the railway has replicated this.

Indeed. For UK economic prosperity Oxford and Cambridge should be top priority. If it wasn't for the stable and functioning government uncertainty I'd have East West Rail as green.

There are two other things that I would expect to follow if East West Rail does happen, neither of which are on the OP's list:

• another new Cambridge station somewhere between Coldham Lane and Barnwell bridges as the Newmarket Road area pivots from retail to business use;
• heavy rail from Haverhill to Cambridge which can only happen if EWR delivers the 4 tracks from Shepreth Branch.

 

[William3000]

So much depends on whether to take a glass half full or glass half empty view of geopolitics, climate change, and how long it will take for the UK to return to stable and functioning government.


These are already happening, they are beyond the speculation stage.


These are totally dependent on East West Rail going ahead.

I see that you don't mention the Ely North Junction capacity upgrade. I'd put that in red.


Indeed. For UK economic prosperity Oxford and Cambridge should be top priority. If it wasn't for the stable and functioning government uncertainty I'd have East West Rail as green.

There are two other things that I would expect to follow if East West Rail does happen, neither of which are on the OP's list:

• another new Cambridge station somewhere between Coldham Lane and Barnwell bridges as the Newmarket Road area pivots from retail to business use;
• heavy rail from Haverhill to Cambridge which can only happen if EWR delivers the 4 tracks from Shepreth Branch.

That’s interesting - to be honest it was really just a starter for 10 to stimulate debate. I’ve always though a station at Coldham’s Lane junction could be useful given proximity to Beehive, Cambridge retail park, several gyms, Cambridge Utd FC. There are also plans for new lap space at the Beehive and near by Grafton Centre. It’s probably midway between Cambridge (Central) and Cambridge North and I think would be well used.

Haverhill reopening I would love to see but there seems to be a love for guided busway in Cambridge which are sub-optimal. A new service stopping at Cambridge South, Shelford, Sawston, Granta Park, Linton, Haverhill would have good patronage.

 

[LLivery]

If East Anglian region means the network, rather than geographical borders then

By 2050, I'd have hoped for:
- West Anglia ML (Tottenham-Cheshunt) 4 tracking - Crossrail 2 or not.
- Picketts Lock station opened
- Stratford redevelopment complete

 

[Bald Rick]

heavy rail from Haverhill to Cambridge which can only happen if EWR delivers the 4 tracks from Shepreth Branch.

No chance.

West Anglia ML (Tottenham-Cheshunt) 4 tracking - Crossrail 2 or not.

No chance on its own, it only has a case as part of Crossrail 2. I personally can’t see Crossrail2 being given the go ahead in the next 5 years, but after that maybe. But is a long construction programme.

Picketts Lock station opened

No chance.

 

[zwk500]

Green: Improvements I expect to see
Cambridge South station

Now committed.

Extra platforms at Cambridge (Central), Some line speed improvements, Platform lengthening, More services to Stansted Airport

Quite likely, I think.

Four tracking southern approach between Cambridge and Shepreth branch

This would be largely dependent on EWR, which I can't see being given the go-ahead.

New Waterbeach station and replacement of existing, Beaulieu Park station, Snailwell chord and direct trains from Ely to Cambridge via Soham

These are much less likely. Especially the Sneilwell Chord, that isn't going to happen in 25 years unless the government find a very large sack of cash down the back of the sofa.

Amber: Improvements we may see
East West Rail
March to Wisbech reopening
King’s Lynn South/Parkway station
Norwich Eastern station somewhere near Postwick
Cambridge East, and Fulbourn stations and some dualling of Cambridge to Newmarket
Possible Dereham to Norwich service via MNR

Ones in bold are in completely not going to happen territory. The rest of Amber also probably won't happen but is less certain.

 

[Brubulus]

So much depends on whether to take a glass half full or glass half empty view of geopolitics, climate change, and how long it will take for the UK to return to stable and functioning government.


These are already happening, they are beyond the speculation stage.


These are totally dependent on East West Rail going ahead.

I see that you don't mention the Ely North Junction capacity upgrade. I'd put that in red.

I can see all the single leads being removed, freeing up 2 paths per hour or so, and a resignalling but no grade separation.

Indeed. For UK economic prosperity Oxford and Cambridge should be top priority. If it wasn't for the stable and functioning government uncertainty I'd have East West Rail as green.

There are two other things that I would expect to follow if East West Rail does happen, neither of which are on the OP's list:

• another new Cambridge station somewhere between Coldham Lane and Barnwell bridges as the Newmarket Road area pivots from retail to business use;
• heavy rail from Haverhill to Cambridge which can only happen if EWR delivers the 4 tracks from Shepreth Branch.

Will heavy rail to Haverhill ever happen given the GCP belief that any sort of bus based solution is categorically better than a rail based one?
They want to spend effectively the same amount as getting the railway to haverhill on getting a busway to a car park in the middle of nowhere.

 

[Bald Rick]

These are much less likely.

Beaulieu Park is happening - the contract has been let!

I can see all the single leads being removed, freeing up 2 paths per hour or so, and a resignalling but no grade separation.

There isn’t any proposed rail grade separation. There is grade separation of the road that crosses all the Queen Adelaide crossings. Without the Road grade separation, there’s no extra paths.

 

[A0]

I can see all the single leads being removed, freeing up 2 paths per hour or so, and a resignalling but no grade separation.

Will heavy rail to Haverhill ever happen given the GCP belief that any sort of bus based solution is categorically better than a rail based one?
They want to spend effectively the same amount as getting the railway to haverhill on getting a busway to a car park in the middle of nowhere.

BIB - No to the first question.

No idea where you're getting your figures to believe a rail link to Haverhill is the same price as the busway ?

The original bit of the busway cost £150m back in 2011 which is about £ 230m in today's prices - that was for about 12 miles, so ~ £20m / mile.

Heavy rail is circa £50m a mile and Haverhill will be about 15 miles - so about £750m.

 

[LLivery]

No chance on its own, it only has a case as part of Crossrail 2. I personally can’t see Crossrail2 being given the go ahead in the next 5 years, but after that maybe. But is a long construction programme.


No chance.

That is depressing

 

[gingertom]

This would be largely dependent on EWR, which I can't see being given the go-ahead.

If EWR does get built it ought to be electrified.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

If EWR does get built it ought to be electrified.

You might argue that Oxford to BY / Milton Keynes ought to be first. .......

 

[gingertom]

You might argue that Oxford to BY / Milton Keynes ought to be first. .......

needs the wires end to end.

 

[zwk500]

needs the wires end to end.

I agree, but given the Oxford-MK/Bedford doesn't have any plans to wire it (despite what the Electric Spine said) don't hold your breath.

 

[gingertom]

I agree, but given the Oxford-MK/Bedford doesn't have any plans to wire it (despite what the Electric Spine said) don't hold your breath.

I agree. Folly not to be doing it.

 

[zwk500]

I agree. Folly not to be doing it.

It makes sense not to do it straight away - you want Oxford done first, and probably the Calvert Feeder Station in as well. However what is rather frustrating is that bridges between Bicester and Bletchley that satisfy W12 but don't allow for electrification, so it will be more expensive to close the railway and rebuild those bridges later.
On the other hand, I'd rather have a non-electrified railway than none at all.

 

[Silenos]

Amber: Improvements we may see
East West Rail
March to Wisbech reopening
King’s Lynn South/Parkway station
Norwich Eastern station somewhere near Postwick
Cambridge East, and Fulbourn stations and some dualling of Cambridge to Newmarket
Possible Dereham to Norwich service via MNR

Be interested in others’ thoughts

I can’t see a justification for a second station in Lynn when the existing one is so underserved. We would do better to hope for improvements at Ely North and the re-dualling of the track between Littleport and Downham Market, allowing the Kings X-Ely service to be extended to King’s Lynn so we can have the long-promised half-hourly service to London.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 7 Feb 2023 ==

Personally I’d rather see Fakenham - which has a surprising amount of light industry and a convoluted traffic layout - reconnected to the railway network, but that’s sheer wishful thinking.

 

[Mikey C]

Surely the line from Ely to Norwich will be electrified and sped up, as links to Cambridge are now probably more important for Norwich than to Ipswich. Indeed why not run some London to Norwich trains via Cambridge in the future.

 

[zwk500]

Surely the line from Ely to Norwich will be electrified and sped up, as links to Cambridge are now probably more important for Norwich than to Ipswich.

No, that line is not going to receive serious investment. Certainly not electrification.

Indeed why not run some London to Norwich trains via Cambridge in the future.

Because Norwich has only just got trains to London below 90 minutes. London is by far the bigger market to serve.

 

[dk1]

Surely the line from Ely to Norwich will be electrified and sped up, as links to Cambridge are now probably more important for Norwich than to Ipswich. Indeed why not run some London to Norwich trains via Cambridge in the future.

What makes you think Ely to Norwich is more important to Norwich than the Ipswich route?

Electrification of the Breckland route has been mooted for the last 35+ years & we are still no closer to achieving it.

 

[Bald Rick]

What makes you think Ely to Norwich is more important to Norwich than the Ipswich route?

I’ve never seen a serious proposal for it in that time. Certainly no development work of any kind.

 

[RailWonderer]

I’ve never seen a serious proposal for it in that time. Certainly no development work of any kind.

What are our chances for Braintree - Bishops Stortford reopening within 50 years? A Stansted Airport via Witham service would connect east with western part of the east as an alternative to driving and be great for engineering diversions. Let me guess - close to nil.